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What would be the harm in moving Lupul away from Kessel?

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11-01-2012, 10:39 PM
  #76
The Blue Devil
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Agreed. We've been bad for so long I think some have forgotten what a good team playing both ends of the ice for a complete 60 minutes is supposed to look like. I don't care if Kessel and Lupul combine for 400 points in a season, if the Leafs finish 5th last, it doesn't matter.
If they combined for 400 points then I highly doubt that the Leafs would be anywhere near the bottom of the league.

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11-01-2012, 10:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
If they combined for 400 points then I highly doubt that the Leafs would be anywhere near the bottom of the league.
That wasn't the point, but I guess it would depend on whether or not their line was getting lit up to the tune of 400 points a year as well.

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11-01-2012, 10:48 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
That wasn't the point, but I guess it would depend on whether or not their line was getting lit up to the tune of 400 points a year as well.
If they were scoring that much, that doesn't exactly give the other team enough time to out score them.

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11-01-2012, 10:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
If they were scoring that much, that doesn't exactly give the other team enough time to out score them.
Gotcha. Because, once again, that was clearly the point.

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11-01-2012, 10:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
Honestly folks. We really don't know what's in store when Randy Carlyle makes the starting rosters for the season. It could be that he likes Lupul and Kessel together. The last couple of years the problem with Toronto has been their scoring depth and defensive play of the top 6. Usually one line was scoring and the other struggled. The only constant has been Kessel. He has scored even when his line mates were Crabb and Bozak. Many argue that the success of Kessel / Lupul was the Ron Wilson's run and gun philosophy. What will those two be like when they are in a more defensive system? Are they defensive enough to be on one line together?

I say split them up. If Lupul is as good as you say he is then he will find his scoring touch on the 2nd line. We know that Kessel will get 30 + goals no matter what. I think that creating a balance is key and taking less defensive liabilities off of the same line might help in the Win Column.

What do you think?

What are your Carlyle rosters as opposed to your Wilson ones?
Says who ? This would be the biggest mistake we could make. They both averaged a point per game, made the allstar team, and were one of the top duos in the league. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to split them up. It doesn't make any sense to break them apart when they're playing at such a high level.

Lupul is a good player and would probably still do decent split apart from Kessel, but together their play is stellar. Really don't see any reason at all this is necessary.

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11-01-2012, 11:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by DionPhaneuf3 View Post
Says who ? This would be the biggest mistake we could make. They both averaged a point per game, made the allstar team, and were one of the top duos in the league. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to split them up. It doesn't make any sense to break them apart when they're playing at such a high level.

Lupul is a good player and would probably still do decent split apart from Kessel, but together their play is stellar. Really don't see any reason at all this is necessary.
I guess the question should be if the Leafs were a better team with Kessel and Lupul on separate lines but their personal stats suffered would you want to split them up?

Team >> Players

I realize that's an old school attitude.

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11-01-2012, 11:01 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Gotcha. Because, once again, that was clearly the point.
Well, on HF you have to do

Point of Post:
Facts:
Made-up Facts:
Why my argument is better than yours:

Basically half of the posts on here are like that lol.

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11-01-2012, 11:02 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I guess the question should be if the Leafs were a better team with Kessel and Lupul on separate lines but their personal stats suffered would you want to split them up?

Team >> Players
Well.. If they get us to 3rd last.. Then we get Monahan.. so.. yeah..

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11-01-2012, 11:11 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
the bolded part is such a joke, defense is a 6 man job not 4, this team has been brutal in the past because all 6 members havent bought in defensively.
3 offensive players deep in the defensive zone 3 defensive players covering, the LD, the RD and the........CENTER! No Way!

Wings defensive responsibility is to play the point man, to take away the point as a potential offensive threat and to take the D out of the play. The C holds most the defensive responsibilities on the offensive line. Im not saying that wingers should not play D, just that their roles are much less involved then that of a C.

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11-01-2012, 11:26 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
3 offensive players deep in the defensive zone 3 defensive players covering, the LD, the RD and the........CENTER! No Way!

Wings defensive responsibility is to play the point man, to take away the point as a potential offensive threat and to take the D out of the play. The C holds most the defensive responsibilities on the offensive line. Im not saying that wingers should not play D, just that their roles are much less involved then that of a C.
I didn't mean that the wingers have as much responsibility as the center in the defensive end, just that the winger does play a big part in the defensive side of the game both in the defensive end and the offensive one. and our wingers on this team need to be far better then what they've been.

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11-01-2012, 11:29 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I didn't mean that the wingers have as much responsibility as the center in the defensive end, just that the winger does play a big part in the defensive side of the game both in the defensive end and the offensive one. and our wingers on this team need to be far better then what they've been.
I wont deny that, but a solid defensive C between Lupul and Kessel will cover them enough to maximize offensive output (GF/GA) considering theyre already scoring more then theyre letting in a defensive specialist like Hanzal or Bergeron for example would make them one of the best top lines in the game. The only thing i cant think of is who could possibly fit that description thatll realistically be available.

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11-01-2012, 11:31 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I didn't mean that the wingers have as much responsibility as the center in the defensive end, just that the winger does play a big part in the defensive side of the game both in the defensive end and the offensive one. and our wingers on this team need to be far better then what they've been.
Perhaps we have to understand the goal?

Is it winning or is it just looking pretty?

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11-01-2012, 11:40 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
I wont deny that, but a solid defensive C between Lupul and Kessel will cover them enough to maximize offensive output (GF/GA) considering theyre already scoring more then theyre letting in a defensive specialist like Hanzal or Bergeron for example would make them one of the best top lines in the game. The only thing i cant think of is who could possibly fit that description thatll realistically be available.
I completely disagree with that I don't think you just throw a defensive center inbetween them and that makes everything ok, Kessel and Lupul need to make an effort to get better defensively, and it needs to happen now.

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11-01-2012, 11:40 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Gotcha. Because, once again, that was clearly the point.
I got your point, I honestly just don't care for it.

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11-01-2012, 11:45 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I completely disagree with that I don't think you just throw a defensive center inbetween them and that makes everything ok, Kessel and Lupul need to make an effort to get better defensively, and it needs to happen now.
Actually, Kessel was a lot better defensively last year, some people just don't care to notice it.

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11-01-2012, 11:50 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Kurtz View Post
Actually, Kessel was a lot better defensively last year, some people just don't care to notice it.
he was for the first 10-20 games not so much after that

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11-01-2012, 11:54 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by The Blue Devil View Post
I got your point, I honestly just don't care for it.
You should probably stop responding to it if that's the case.

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11-02-2012, 12:12 AM
  #93
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IF Kulemin and Frattin aren't so snake bit this team should have 30-40 more goals(over 82 games) than they had last year with the same line up.

Leave Lupul and Kessel alone.

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11-02-2012, 12:18 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I completely disagree with that I don't think you just throw a defensive center inbetween them and that makes everything ok, Kessel and Lupul need to make an effort to get better defensively, and it needs to happen now.
You don't think Bergeron would make that line one of the best in the NHL?

Heck Steen would make them extremely dangerous.

Having Kessel play below the hash marks takes away his breakaway speed. Adjust Defensive strategy accordingly.

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11-02-2012, 12:26 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
You don't think Bergeron would make that line one of the best in the NHL?

Heck Steen would make them extremely dangerous.

Having Kessel play below the hash marks takes away his breakaway speed. Adjust Defensive strategy accordingly.
I don't believe 2 players playing on the same line who only play half the game is something that makes a line successful. 3v5 in the defensive end is not a recipe for success even if those 3 are Chara, Weber and Bergeron. defensive centers can only do so much. guys like Lupul and Kessel will never be top defensive players but there's no reason they can't be Average or above average defenders something they're currently not close to being. this needs to improve for us as a team to improve, as the chance of them improving there offensive numbers are not really that great.

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11-02-2012, 05:10 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
I don't believe 2 players playing on the same line who only play half the game is something that makes a line successful. 3v5 in the defensive end is not a recipe for success even if those 3 are Chara, Weber and Bergeron. defensive centers can only do so much. guys like Lupul and Kessel will never be top defensive players but there's no reason they can't be Average or above average defenders something they're currently not close to being. this needs to improve for us as a team to improve, as the chance of them improving there offensive numbers are not really that great.
+1

I cant stand players that dont care about playing hard defensively. Theyre PROFESSIONAL hockey players, HOW have they not realized that playing hard in the defensive end is just as, if not more important than playing hard in the offensive end.

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11-02-2012, 06:05 AM
  #97
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Unbelievable.

So because some of us would rather keep Kessel and Lupul together that means;

We don't like defense
We're only interested in goals
We care more about personal stats over wins

Ever think we'd like to keep Kessel and Lupul together and see the other lines improve. You know, maybe those 2 continue to score at a ppg pace, they play better defense and we get wins. Maybe we'd like to have our cake and eat it too.

Gotta love this place. Always dealing in absolutes.

"You don't want to split Lupul and Kessel up? Well I guess you don't like winning."

As if following through with that is guaranteed to make the team better.

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11-02-2012, 06:44 AM
  #98
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I'm not personally advocating for keeping them together or splitting them up.

Just advocating that I think both of them should put more effort in on the defensive side of the puck.

Watch Kessel when our team has the puck. He is leaning forward skating as hard as possible.

Backchecking? Half the time he is literally standing more or less erect just gliding back towards our zone. With his speed and ability to read plays, he could be a pretty solid defensive player if he wanted to be. Datsyuk is arguably the best two-way player in the world, and he's under 6 feet tall, so it's not Kessel's lack of physical abilities holding him back defensively.

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11-02-2012, 07:07 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
I'm not personally advocating for keeping them together or splitting them up.

Just advocating that I think both of them should put more effort in on the defensive side of the puck.

Watch Kessel when our team has the puck. He is leaning forward skating as hard as possible.

Backchecking? Half the time he is literally standing more or less erect just gliding back towards our zone. With his speed and ability to read plays, he could be a pretty solid defensive player if he wanted to be. Datsyuk is arguably the best two-way player in the world, and he's under 6 feet tall, so it's not Kessel's lack of physical abilities holding him back defensively.

I disagree about his effort to get back in the defensive zone. I've seen Kessel as the first one back many times.

Personally I think his defensive problems lie in his reluctance to take a hit while attempting to get the puck out. He usually just swings his stick at the puck while turning away from the opposing player when the puck comes along the boards on his side of the ice. So while everyone is starting to move forward in a breakout, the puck actually stays in the zone and everyone has to turn around and find their man again. Makes for extended time playing defense, everyone gets tired and they end up either getting scored on or icing the puck. Happens on Lupul's side as well but not quite as often.

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11-02-2012, 07:25 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by MajorityRules View Post
I disagree about his effort to get back in the defensive zone. I've seen Kessel as the first one back many times.

Personally I think his defensive problems lie in his reluctance to take a hit while attempting to get the puck out. He usually just swings his stick at the puck while turning away from the opposing player when the puck comes along the boards on his side of the ice.
He's inconsistent when it comes to the bolded. WHEN he does it, he's shown that he can be reasonably effective. When he doesn't do it, he's obviously not at all effective.

His avoidance of physical contact obviously plays a big role when set up in the defensive zone itself.

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