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Alex Galchenyuk Thread 4.0 - The "I like it like That" Edition

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11-02-2012, 03:22 AM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
That's a flawed way of looking at things..

Penguins finished one point away from last place in the NHL in 2005-2006. That means they were the second worst team in the league with Crosby in the line up. Should they have traded Crosby??
Horrible analogy. Crosby wasn't a veteran who could be traded for youthful prospect, he was the youthful prospect.

The Carter for Couturier+Voracek trade, or the Richards for Schenn+Simmonds trades, are better analogies. Plekanec has comparable value to those too, so aim high please.

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Funny you say this because the opposite is actually what happened.
We invested in the future last season and it didn't end up working all that well.
We started the year with guys like MaxPac, DD, PK, Price, Eller, Weber, Diaz, Engvist, Emelin, and soon came Blunden, Palushaj..

If anything, we invested a lot more into our future last season.
I disagree. You seem to be arguing that playing youth = investing in the future. It's not so, to invest in the future you need good youth, not tablescraps like Palushaj and Engvist who are leftover after you've emptied your system dry.

We had traded three or four 2nd rounders in the period 2008-2011, and we had lost two 1st rounders: one in the McDonagh trade and one in the Tanguay trade.

In previous seasons, Kovalev, Koivu, Komisarek, Tanguay, Moore, Hamrlik, Wisniewski, Halpern, had all left for nothing. When you lose a lot of skilled veterans for nothing, and that was indeed the story of the Habs in the period 2009-2011, you end up collapsing eventually.

The reasons for our team being the 3rd worst in the league are in the above two paragraphs. If we had had Hamrlik-McDonagh as the first pairing we would have been a bubble team.

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11-02-2012, 06:12 AM
  #527
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I didn't advocate for Gally to copycat Plekanec's game lol, but Pleks might help him in the areas of his expertise, being responsible defensively! Gally himself stated he is a two way palyer, and his coach said he was a 3 zone player, not just offense like Yaks.
I wasn't replying to you, just in general. I don't disagree about plekanec helping him out but I just have a preference is all.

See, I have no issue with gally being put on 3rd line to ease him into the NHL. In the sense that "Okay, you're on 3rd line, and you'll get more ice time soon, we're just lowering expectations and letting you adjust". That's acceptable to me. What isn't acceptable is "Okay, you're not ready for the 2nd line, so we'll shove you on the 3rd and hope you'll progress by the end of the year". Because option 2 is forcing an issue and putting him into a spot which doesn't utilize his talents. BTW, when i say 2nd line, i don't expect him to be an amazing top 6 forward, I just mean, at the minimum let him be good enough to keep up with the top 6 before he makes the jump.

People have used Toews, Kopitar and other comparisons. Were they on 3rd line? Nope.

It is reasonable(I hope) to suggest Galchenyuk has a higher offensive upside than Plekanec right? I want to get that upside, not turn him into Plekanec. Granted, there's nothing wrong with Plekanec but clearly the habs have lacked a true #1 offensive center for a long time. Would be stupid to push him into a path where you put him in wrong position.

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11-02-2012, 09:54 AM
  #528
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Wrong.

We do not want Galchenyuk playing 9 minutes a night on the 4th line. How good he is depends not just on him, but on how he's treated. If he's replaced by a veteran every time he makes a miniscule mistake it will slow his development.

Further, we need to maximize assets. Let's trade players when their value is high, like Philadelphia did with Carter and Richards, or like how we did with Halak. Let's not wait until their value is reduced by those players having lost a roster spot to youth.

I'll not that replacing Halak with Price was a leap of faith, a lot of people didn't think Price was ready and the trade was very controversial. However, it was decided that we wanted to sell Halak when his value was high, and we got LARS ELLER !!! Similarly, people though Philadelphia needed Carter and Richards, but then they were an even better team without them.
Not wrong.

I said that if Galchenyuk is good enough to merit top-6 minutes, he should get those minutes and push someone else down the depth chart. If he isn't and can only get 4th line minutes, then he should be getting top-line minutes in the CHL or AHL, depending when we're talking about.

As for Philly being a better team without Richards & Carter, how can you make that statement when they got the exact same number of points than the previous season, after having fixed their most important weakness in goals?

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11-02-2012, 10:36 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Horrible analogy. Crosby wasn't a veteran who could be traded for youthful prospect, he was the youthful prospect.

The Carter for Couturier+Voracek trade, or the Richards for Schenn+Simmonds trades, are better analogies. Plekanec has comparable value to those too, so aim high please.
No no no! Don't you understand? You never trade something worth lots now, for things that are worth potentially more later. That would involve analysis of some sort of growth, or depreciation of your assets. I mean, who's ever heard of such a thing? Take your heresy elsewhere.

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Old
11-02-2012, 11:29 AM
  #530
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
No no no! Don't you understand? You never trade something worth lots now, for things that are worth potentially more later. That would involve analysis of some sort of growth, or depreciation of your assets. I mean, who's ever heard of such a thing? Take your heresy elsewhere.
As a finance mba this amused me

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11-02-2012, 11:31 AM
  #531
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I doubt Plekanec has comparable value to Richards and Carter.

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11-02-2012, 12:02 PM
  #532
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I doubt Plekanec has comparable value to Richards and Carter.
To the right team he has just as much or more.

What do you think the value of Plekanec playing with Hossa and being the top PKer to Chicago would be?

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11-02-2012, 12:25 PM
  #533
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Richards and Carter went on to win the Stanley cup, so I'd hold off on pronouncing the trade a good one for Philly. Not to mention, there were rumored locker room problems with both of them, so it was understandable that they'd look to move them. Plekanec is the kind of guy you want around to help develop your young prospects. He just goes out and does his job, no BS, no ego. For the right price though, I'd be willing to trade anyone.

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11-02-2012, 01:11 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Horrible analogy. Crosby wasn't a veteran who could be traded for youthful prospect, he was the youthful prospect.

The Carter for Couturier+Voracek trade, or the Richards for Schenn+Simmonds trades, are better analogies. Plekanec has comparable value to those too, so aim high please.
Not a horrible analogy. Point was to show you how dumb it is to think our team is limited to 3rd worst with Plekanec on it. Our team was also 1st a few years ago with Plekanec on it. It's not because we struggled last year that we should get rid of Plekanec now.

As for the Richards-Carter comparison. Well, first off, those two were rumored to have off ice issues, Plekanec not at all. Second, the Flyers believed Giroux could take over as #1 center and he had shown capable of so, we don't have anybody yet that proved that.
Finally, Richards and Carter brought the Flyers to the cup finals, and they won it together in LA. I didn't think it was such a great trade before, and I still don't today.
The return wasn't bad, but Richards is someone I'd take on my team and in the POs any day of the week.

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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I disagree. You seem to be arguing that playing youth = investing in the future. It's not so, to invest in the future you need good youth, not tablescraps like Palushaj and Engvist who are leftover after you've emptied your system dry.

We had traded three or four 2nd rounders in the period 2008-2011, and we had lost two 1st rounders: one in the McDonagh trade and one in the Tanguay trade.

In previous seasons, Kovalev, Koivu, Komisarek, Tanguay, Moore, Hamrlik, Wisniewski, Halpern, had all left for nothing. When you lose a lot of skilled veterans for nothing, and that was indeed the story of the Habs in the period 2009-2011, you end up collapsing eventually.

The reasons for our team being the 3rd worst in the league are in the above two paragraphs. If we had had Hamrlik-McDonagh as the first pairing we would have been a bubble team.
Actually, that's exactly what it means. You make young players play=invest in future. Trading vets for younger good prospects also means investing in the future. Both mean it, and it's not because you don't like Palushaj that he shouldn't be looked at. You also conveniently focused on him and Engqvist, our two worst forward prospects perhaps to have played with us last year. What about all the other names I mentioned, that were actually good.

As for the other players that we let go, it's been discussed to the point of exhaustion. Stupid mistakes, but it's a previous administration, and it had nothing to do with our ''collapse''. We've been a mediocre-good team under the previous admin over the years, we were again a mediocre team last year that probably would have battled for 8th spot in the POs, until Gauthier decided to fire Martin, replace him with Cunney, and traded away Cammy.

Yea, if we had Hammer-McDo as a pair maybe we'd be a bubble team. If we didn't trade Cammy and fire Martin, we'd probably have been one last year too.


This lockout really hurts because this would have been the year to really see Plek-DD-Eller compete against one another (so long as they were given the opportunity to do so). At some point, especially once Gally comes around, we will most likely have to move one of those centers, but we don't have to do it now nor does it absolutely have to be Plekanec.

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Old
11-02-2012, 01:38 PM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not a horrible analogy. Point was to show you how dumb it is to think our team is limited to 3rd worst with Plekanec on it. Our team was also 1st a few years ago with Plekanec on it. It's not because we struggled last year that we should get rid of Plekanec now.
No, it's a horrible analogy, and one made from an obtuse point of view. I'm starting to get tired of message boards because most of the time, no one's trying to understand the other person's point of view. It would be preferable to many people here to appear right, than for something correct, but contradictory to their opinion be shared.

What's your plan for Plekanec then? Just hold him until he retires, and watch the asset wither away? At least if he started as a draft pick, and ends up giving us nothing when he leaves, we didn't lose anything, right? Buy cheap, and sell...well...don't sell at all?

The point is that he's probably had his best year that he'll ever have here, and from here on, his value will only stay relatively flat, or decrease. Meanwhile, the habs are in simply 0 position to be a contender in those "flat" years. We might as well store the value invested in him in terms of assets that will appreciate in value.

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11-02-2012, 01:50 PM
  #536
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To the right team he has just as much or more.

What do you think the value of Plekanec playing with Hossa and being the top PKer to Chicago would be?
No way he has more than Richards or Carter, especially given the former two's age at the time of the trade. Say what you want about Richards' attitude, but he is one of the league's premier two-way forwards and plays the type of game everyone loves. Hard nosed, in your face, agitator style, can play in any situation. People spoke of Richards and Carter (as well as Giroux) being the face of the Flyers for years to come. I would take Richards on my team 10 times out of 10 over Plekanec.

I don't think Chicago would overpay at all for Plekanec as they are in no rush given how young their core is and with prospects like Saad coming up. No team will overpay for Plekanec.

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Old
11-02-2012, 02:23 PM
  #537
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To get this back on track:

Sarnia starts a 3 in 3 weekend tonight vs Plymouth. Then @ Plymouth tomorrow and @ Saginaw on Sunday afternoon.

Plymouth has a very good roster (1st rounders Rakell, Noesen and Wilson, other drafted prospects like Meurs, Carrick, Karlsson and Payne, 2013 draft prospect Hartman, etc) and should win Sarnia's division fairly easy, so this will be a tough task for Sarnia the next 2 nights.

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Old
11-02-2012, 02:36 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
The point is that he's probably had his best year that he'll ever have here, and from here on, his value will only stay relatively flat, or decrease. Meanwhile, the habs are in simply 0 position to be a contender in those "flat" years. We might as well store the value invested in him in terms of assets that will appreciate in value.
This is all your opinion, and that's fine, but I don't know how you can predict that we won't be contenders until after Plekanec retires or declines. We very well could win the Stanley cup next year. I don't give a crap about who the favorites are at the beginning of the year. Montreal has most of the premier pieces in place, add some scoring and grit on defense and all bets are off. That could literally be done in one offseason, so no, we shouldn't be blowing up this team. In my opinion.

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11-02-2012, 03:28 PM
  #539
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This is all your opinion, and that's fine, but I don't know how you can predict that we won't be contenders until after Plekanec retires or declines. We very well could win the Stanley cup next year. I don't give a crap about who the favorites are at the beginning of the year. Montreal has most of the premier pieces in place, add some scoring and grit on defense and all bets are off. That could literally be done in one offseason, so no, we shouldn't be blowing up this team. In my opinion.
Agreed!

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11-02-2012, 04:41 PM
  #540
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This is all your opinion, and that's fine, but I don't know how you can predict that we won't be contenders until after Plekanec retires or declines. We very well could win the Stanley cup next year. I don't give a crap about who the favorites are at the beginning of the year. Montreal has most of the premier pieces in place, add some scoring and grit on defense and all bets are off. That could literally be done in one offseason, so no, we shouldn't be blowing up this team. In my opinion.
This is the thinking that culminated in last season, and the current situation. No, we cannot predict with 100% certainty that we aren't contenders next year. But that doesn't mean that we should make our team building decisions based on the idea that we're going to win the cup given that there's a 0.01% chance that it happens. It's idealistic. It's the mentality that you want your players to have, not your GM.

Every team in the NHL is more unlikely to win the cup in any given year, than they are to win. However, are you trying to say that we have an especially good chance of winning the cup next year? Or would you say there's at least 15 teams with a more arguable case than ours?

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11-02-2012, 05:37 PM
  #541
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This is the thinking that culminated in last season, and the current situation. No, we cannot predict with 100% certainty that we aren't contenders next year. But that doesn't mean that we should make our team building decisions based on the idea that we're going to win the cup given that there's a 0.01% chance that it happens. It's idealistic. It's the mentality that you want your players to have, not your GM.

Every team in the NHL is more unlikely to win the cup in any given year, than they are to win. However, are you trying to say that we have an especially good chance of winning the cup next year? Or would you say there's at least 15 teams with a more arguable case than ours?
The biggest reason we bombed so hard last year, was our best player, Markov, being once again lost to injury. If he's healthy, which all signs point to, then we are twice the team we are without him. Also let's not forget all the other injuries that plagued us last year. We didn't have any depth to handle them.

I'm not trying to sell you on the idea that we are favorites or that we have a great chance of winning next year, but we're not far. There's work to be done for sure, but most of the hardest things to find, we've got! Plekanec is most definitely part of the solution for Montreal, so I wouldn't be trying to move him. I'd be dumping the crappy contracts and looking to replace them with better value through free agency; identify the prospects that are expendable and try to parlay them into more established and needed talent; keep building through the draft and maybe try to get another 1st pick with our 3 2nds.

Now having said all that, if we can get a great asset for Plekanec, then you do it, obviously. We shouldn't be actively shopping him though, it's not like he'll be walking at the end of the year or anything. I'm loving where this team is headed and wouldn't be panicking in anyway about our finish last year. Give Plekanec some real top line players to play with and I'll bet that his value will go up, but more importantly, the team will be that much better.

I know you used the marketing analogy, but this isn't the stock market. You can't cash out a draft pick, nothing is guaranteed. The goal is to win hockey games, and Pleky greatly increases our chances of doing so.

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11-02-2012, 06:08 PM
  #542
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Galchenyuk playing right wing again today. On a line with Boucher and Sarault.

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11-02-2012, 06:33 PM
  #543
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2 very questionable goals for Plymouth. Sarnia really is a horribly coached team. That pass by Dangelo which cause the second goal was unforgivable.

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11-02-2012, 06:36 PM
  #544
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Sarault pisses me off. Skates himself into a corner all the time! Reminds me of Gomez. Can't shoot, and looks good doing nothing really.

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11-02-2012, 06:37 PM
  #545
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I've rarely seen the gangbusters style from Galchenyuk that was reported. He looks content floating around waiting for things to happen. Perhaps (hopefully) he's just bored.

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11-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #546
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I've rarely seen the gangbusters style from Galchenyuk that was reported. He looks content floating around waiting for things to happen. Perhaps (hopefully) he's just bored.
That's because he's rusty.

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11-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #547
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Great move almost leads to a goal at te end of the first.

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11-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #548
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That's because he's rusty.
Ha! I really hope so....

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11-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #549
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Oh man! Nasty dangle by Gally, gets poke checked by goalie at last second.

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11-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #550
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That would have been a sick goal

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