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Old
11-02-2012, 12:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Good for you, but the players are potentially losing a significant amount of their pay if the NHL folds. KHL and those other Euro leagues can't compete with the current NHL salaries and even the most recent CBA proposal by the owners.

Heck the majority of the league would not be able to find work. Sure the superstars would head over, but those 3rd/4th liners would eventually run out of roster spots.

The irony is they would reject a deal that pay's them more, but go to the KHL/Europe which pays them less and doesnt offer the same job security or "staying alive" security.

That ego has gotta be put aside when you are in a lose/lose even more situation.
I really don't care how much the players win or lose.

But I'm getting sick and tired of the ignorant notion that employees can only loose at the bargaining table. It's ridiculous. And I don't care how many people at HFboards repeat it, it's 100 percent BS.

Just because the players lost last time doesn't mean they lose every time.


The Bottom Line for me is, the owners need to lose and lose big because they need to understand that shutting down hockey can work against you, and perhaps then they'd be a little less non-chalant about screwing over their fans.

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:43 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I really don't care how much the players win or lose.

But I'm getting sick and tired of the ignorant notion that employees can only loose at the bargaining table. It's ridiculous. And I don't care how many people at HFboards repeat it, it's 100 percent BS.

Just because the players lost last time doesn't mean they lose every time.


The Bottom Line for me is, the owners need to lose and lose big because they need to understand that shutting down hockey can work against you, and perhaps then they'd be a little less non-chalant about screwing over their fans.
Most people could say the same about your position CB. Why it is dangerous to go so hardline to one side or the other.

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:46 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I really don't care how much the players win or lose.

But I'm getting sick and tired of the ignorant notion that employees can only loose at the bargaining table. It's ridiculous. And I don't care how many people at HFboards repeat it, it's 100 percent BS.

Just because the players lost last time doesn't mean they lose every time.


The Bottom Line for me is, the owners need to lose and lose big because they need to understand that shutting down hockey can work against you, and perhaps then they'd be a little less non-chalant about screwing over their fans.
When it comes to pro sports, the notion that employees can only lose is very accurate. Players should lose the majority of CBA negotiations when it comes to pro sports. Of course you have to use word "lose" in relative terms. I would love to see my pay go down from 2 million to 1.5 million.

The majority (pretty sure it's all of them) of the owners do not need the NHL to "put bread on the table." The same cannot be said for the players.

I dont support the players or owners. I only support the side that can win and end this lockout. Hint - It's not the players.

Owners are ********, but we live in the real world and the players have zero leverage to get the owners to accept any offer they arent willing to already give up.

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:51 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
When it comes to pro sports, the notion that employees can only lose is very accurate. Players should lose the majority of CBA negotiations when it comes to pro sports. Of course you have to use word "lose" in relative terms. I would love to see my pay go down from 2 million to 1.5 million.
So far, there have been two lockouts and a strike in the NHL.
It's fair to say that the owners have "won" once.

Quote:
The majority (pretty sure it's all of them) of the owners do not need the NHL to "put bread on the table." The same cannot be said for the players.
This is really oversimplified and wrong.


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I dont support the player s or owners. I only support the side that can win and end this lockout. Hint - It's not the players.
And since you're wrong, your support is misplaced.

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11-02-2012, 12:54 PM
  #55
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A shame. But no suprise by this point. Still its frustrating to watch. It is hard to believe that this conflict involves grown men, its more kindergarden mentality I think this.

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11-02-2012, 12:56 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Most people could say the same about your position CB. Why it is dangerous to go so hardline to one side or the other.
Except they'd be wrong.

The owners are 100 percent to blame.

1) They locked the players out last time and cost us a season to win the salary cap they said would correct the game's economics.

2) They were obviously wrong.

3) They are proposing a new system that doesn't address the reason why they are in trouble.

4) Since they haven't addressed the reason why they are in trouble, what do you think they will do 5-6 years from now, when Carolina, Nashville and whoever else can't keep up with the berserk revenue growth in Toronto and NY and Montreal?

I'll tell you what they'll do. They'll threaten a lockout.

So, tell me where I am wrong.

It's my sincere hope that the PA shreds the owners and knocks a few owners and markets out of the NHL

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:57 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
So far, there have been two lockouts and a strike in the NHL.
It's fair to say that the owners have "won" once.



This is really oversimplified and wrong.




And since you're wrong, your support is misplaced.
It is that simple.

1999 NBA lockout. Players went broke and caved.
2004.NHL Players went broke and caved.
2011 NBA lockout - players remembered they went broke last time and decided it would not be wise to go through that again............and caved.
Most recent NFL lockout - Players caved and owners got what they wanted. After they settled, they went and did a photo shoot with those evil owners. Remember that the NFL is notorious for seeing millionaire athletes going bankrupt 2-3 years after they retire.

AND we finally arrive to the most recent NHL lockout. I guess it take's at least two full season lockouts for the players to get the memo. They have ZERO LEVERAGE.

It does not matter if the owners were wrong. What matter's is who has the leverage and who can fight the longest. That is a commodity that separates the players from the owners.

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Old
11-02-2012, 01:00 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
It is that simple.

1999 NBA lockout. Players went broke and caved.
2004. Players went broke and caved.
2010 NBA lockout - players remembered they went broke last time and decided it would not be wise to go through that again............and caved.
Most recent NFL lockout - Players caved and owners got what they wanted. After they settled, they went and did a photo shoot with those evil owners. Remember that the NFL is notorious for seeing millionaire athletes going bankrupt 2-3 years after they retire.

AND we finally arrive to the most recent NHL lockout. I guess it take's at least two full season lockouts for the players to get the memo. They have ZERO LEVERAGE.
Your version of history is limited and/or selective
You've not mentioned any of the baseball strikes or lockouts.
You've not mentioned any of the NHLPA's victories in strikes and/or lockouts.

If your logic were true, no union in any country would have any clout against their bosses
And yet we've got more than a 100 years of labor history that shows otherwise.

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11-02-2012, 01:03 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Except they'd be wrong.

The owners are 100 percent to blame.
To say one side is 100% to blame is 100% ignorant.

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11-02-2012, 01:04 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Your version of history is limited and/or selective
You've not mentioned any of the baseball strikes or lockouts.
You've not mentioned any of the NHLPA's victories in strikes and/or lockouts.

If your logic were true, no union in any country would have any clout against their bosses
And yet we've got more than a 100 years of labor history that shows otherwise.
Why do you keep pretending that pro sports unions and regular unions like the UAW are remotely comparable?

One union is fighting to make sure they dont lose their house and can afford to feed their kids.

One is fighting to make sure they can drive 100k cars and live in multi million dollar homes.

Guess which one is the NHLPA and which one is a typical union like the UAW.

1994 MLB Strike. Only actual success thanks to Fehr because he used a ******* tactic that ONLY WORKS ONCE. It also managed to almost destroy the most popular sport in America. GO FEHR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont care to mention limited victories, they dont serve a purpose to this discussion. Lockouts almost never end well for the players. Fortunately for the players, when you make millions of dollars, not ending well means you have to settle for the Limited Edition Ferrari instead of the SUPER LIMITED EDITION Enzo Ferrari.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 11-02-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old
11-02-2012, 01:05 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
To say one side is 100% to blame is 100% ignorant.
Tell me why.
Tell me what more the PA needs to give?

The PA was in New York all week, and let it be known they'd be willing to negotiate, but the owners won't unless it's a negotiation off the owners' offer.

The owners are playing take it or leave it.

How does the PA deserve blame?

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11-02-2012, 01:06 PM
  #62
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And the entire season aint too far behind.

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11-02-2012, 01:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Why do you keep pretending that pro sports unions and regular unions like the UAW are remotely comparable?
Because you keep using general language like:
The owners have all the leverage because they are rich.

Well, In the case of Ford and the UAW, Ford should have all the leverage, right?

In the case of the steel workers vs the steel company, the company should have all the leverage right?

So, if you don't want me to illustrate the faultiness of your logic, use logic that isn't faulty.


Quote:
One union is fighting to make sure they dont lose their house and can afford to feed their kids.
Exactly. One union is made up of workers who CAN'T AFFORD TO MISS WORK, and yet they strike and often win.

The PA, -- these guys make lots of money. They have MORE leverage than an autoworker who could lose his house after no check for a month.


Quote:
One is fighting to make sure they can drive 100k cars and live in multi million dollar homes.
Thank you for proving my point.


Quote:
1994 MLB Strike. Only actual success thanks to Fehr because he used a ******* tactic that ONLY WORKS ONCE. It also managed to almost destroy the most popular sport in America. GO FEHR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You'll be a lot happier if you use that sort of post on the BOH board.

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Old
11-02-2012, 01:14 PM
  #64
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what a shame, let's hope they rescedule it to 2014.

I actually tried to gt tickets for the game and would have purchased a flight ticket etc. to Detroit. Imagine shelling out up to 1000$ for game, flight and hotel and than finding out the whole thing gets cancelled...
This happened to me already. I made a trip to Pittsburgh (from St. Louis) to make the home opener for the Pens. Had to ask off nearly a year in advance from my work. Already had the trip planned and payed for. And then the lockout happened

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Old
11-02-2012, 01:27 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Because you keep using general language like:
The owners have all the leverage because they are rich.

Well, In the case of Ford and the UAW, Ford should have all the leverage, right?

In the case of the steel workers vs the steel company, the company should have all the leverage right?

So, if you don't want me to illustrate the faultiness of your logic, use logic that isn't faulty.




Exactly. One union is made up of workers who CAN'T AFFORD TO MISS WORK, and yet they strike and often win.

The PA, -- these guys make lots of money. They have MORE leverage than an autoworker who could lose his house after no check for a month.




Thank you for proving my point.




You'll be a lot happier if you use that sort of post on the BOH board.
Right........

The NHL is not like Ford. NHL provides a luxury service. Ford makes cars. A basic necessity for almost every adult in America and Canada/THE 1ST WORLD. Can i get to work tomorrow morning if the Wings dont play?

Yeah because if Ford decided to take away 17% of all employee's pay just because they are mean and dont like their employees, we would definitely be seeing support for Ford. Their CEO's would be voted out by the shareholders.

If the UAW strikes and production ceases, does Ford have the luxury of waiting them out until they cave? The answer of course is no. NHL has zero competition. Ford does. Guess what that mean's for players? Go to the KHL and get paid 1/10th of what you currently make and enjoy flying the friendly skies of the KHL.

Auto union's cant afford to NOT STRIKE if the deal make's it impossible to feed their family. The same isnt true with NHL players.

Pro sports are a unique situation where the PA union will never get the support of the people because people hate seeing a hobby taken away because billionaires are fighting with millionaires. "real world" unions have the advantage of complete public/media support. Sticking with Ford and a potential UAW strike. It directly negatively effect's them or their family members/the average joe. I know a ton of people who work for Ford who are friends and family. How many NHL players do you hang out with on the weekend? Yes i realize that the NHL is full of normal people who have to do the nitty gritty stuff that nobody cares about, but those people arent being reported on ESPN/TSN. They arent going on twitter giving out garbage tweet's saying "WE WANT TO PLAY"

Another example is airlines. When the captain's or flight staff go on strike, the airline starts to lose millions of dollars in potential sales to rival airlines. The owners dont face that problem. They are the only game in town and they know it. They know that nobody in the States has the infrastructure or capital necessary to form a rival league.

Little Crosby can only afford ONE OF THOSE ISLANDS in the Galapagos. How will his son survive with only ONE ISLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THINK OF LITTLE SIDNEY!!!!!!!!! That is what the average joe thinks when he see's the players not accepting the owners offer.


Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 11-02-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old
11-02-2012, 01:36 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Right........

The NHL is not like Ford. NHL provides a luxury service. Ford makes cars. A basic necessity for almost every adult in America and Canada/THE 1ST WORLD. Can i get to work tomorrow morning if the Wings dont play?

You can buy a car from 10 other companies.

Quote:
Yeah because if Ford decided to take away 17% of all employee's pay we would definitely be seeing support for Ford. Their CEO's would be voted out by the shareholders.
Well, Ford basically did just that to new employees a couple years ago.


Quote:
If the UAW strikes and production ceases, does Ford have the luxury of waiting them out until they cave? The answer of course is no. NHL has zero competition. Ford does. Guess what that mean's for players? Go to the KHL and get paid 1/10th of what you currently make and enjoy flying the friendly skies of the KHL.
Now this is somewhat relevant.
But realistically, the NHL isn't competing against the KHL for evenue.
The NHL is competing for sponsorships and fans and advertising with the NFL, NBA, college sports etc.


I'll pretend that you didn't sink to the disgusting low of referencing the Lokomotiv crash in a fruitless effort to make a ppoint.



Quote:
Pro sports are a unique situation where the PA union will never get the support of the people because people hate seeing a hobby taken away because billionaires are fighting with millionaires.
Makes no sense.
So they support the owners?


Quote:
"real world" unions have the advantage of complete public support.
Not very much.


Quote:
Sticking with Ford and a potential UAW strike. It directly negatively effect's them or their family members/the average joe. I know a ton of people who work for Ford who are friends and family. How many NHL players do you hang out with on the weekend? Yes i realize that the NHL is full of normal people who have to do the nitty gritty stuff that nobody cares about, but those people arent being reported on ESPN/TSN. They arent going on twitter giving out garbage tweet's saying "WE WANT TO PLAY"
Look, support for trade unions is at an all-time low in America. Public support does matter.

But these things run in cycles.

There is no hard and fast rule that says the owners will win every labor negotiation. Even when the workers/players don't have public support.

Each negotiation has its own set of circumstances.


Quote:
Little Crosby can only afford ONE OF THOSE ISLANDS in the Galapagos. How will his son survive with only ONE ISLAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THINK OF LITTLE SIDNEY!!!!!!!!!
Take that BS to the BOH board. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it.

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Old
11-02-2012, 01:47 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Makes no sense.
So they support the owners?
Taking this a little out of context but I've yet to hear a good argument for the fans to support the players OR the owners. Why should we support anyone? What do the fans have to gain from this strike, from either outcome? Nothing. It's the fans against the players and owners. End of story.

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11-02-2012, 01:52 PM
  #68
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Taking this a little out of context but I've yet to hear a good argument for the fans to support the players OR the owners. Why should we support anyone? What do the fans have to gain from this strike, from either outcome? Nothing. It's the fans against the players and owners. End of story.
1) It's not a strike. It's a lockout.

A strike is when the players don't report to work.
A lockout is when the owners lock the doors and don't let the players work.

2) The only people who want a lockout are the owners. PERIOD. The players don't want a lockout. They were willing to play under the existing terms and offered to do so.
The owners chose to close down the league.

I don't support the lockout out.
But now that it's here, I support the owners losing the lockout badly, so that they don't do the same thing 5-6 years from now.

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11-02-2012, 01:54 PM
  #69
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You can think you are right all you want Bob, but at the end of the day, i know the owners are gonna be walking away from this with the winning hand and the players are gonna give out a BS press release saying, "We got the deal we wanted."

It's not a matter of who is right or who is wrong. The only thing that matters is who has the leverage and who can fight indefinitely.

No they support the owners because they see an offer on the table that proposes they make 1.8 million instead of 2.1 million. They ask themselves, "Why arent they taking that deal?" It is the quickest way for the fans to get what they want. If i am spending my money on watching grown men play a children's game, I will be as selfish as i want.

I am aware of the latest union backlash that has been going on in the States, (not sure about Canada), but like you said these things are cyclical, but even at the most extreme end of the spectrum, the UAW or whatever non pro sports related union is always going to get more support than a union with it's members who are multi millionaires.

I was not done editing my post so my last post about Crosby and his island was in reference to what the general public will think.

That Lokomotiv comment might have been distasteful, but if i were an NHL player it would definitely sit in the back of my mind. Look at Wayne Simmond's, the guy got racially taunted and has been there for what one month? I know it happens in the state's too, but it is much less frequent and generally speaking less public.

It basically means you work in a less safe environment and you make significantly less money if you work in Europe. They dont provide any leverage for the players to use as a negotiating tactic to get the owners to fold.

I do not support the owners. They are mostly dirt bags. I do not support the players. You make millions of dollars a year putting a puck in a net. I only support the fastest way out of this. That is by way of the players accepting the owners offer. Players have no leverage, ZILCH, NADA. You can keep harping all you want about how the players need to stick it to the owners, but that is completely unrealistic and virtually impossible. You cant stick it to your boss if he needs you less than you need him.

The fans have to come back which makes it even easier for the owners to not negotiate in good faith with the players. Who the hell is going to watch the AHL instead of the NHL? You cant have a pro sport which relies on the hardcore fans. Casual fans make the world go round and they want the Detroit Red Wings and Pittsburgh Penguins. Nobody is going to pay 400 bucks for those AHL playoff games.


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Old
11-02-2012, 01:57 PM
  #70
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Talking about the lockout is like talking politics.

And I am at the point that they just need to cancel the entire season because if they can't even talk to figure out the issues, then it's very obvious there will not be a season. It will save me some money this year.

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11-02-2012, 02:05 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
You can think you are right all you want Bob, but at the end of the day, i know the owners are gonna be walking away from this with the winning hand and the players are gonna give out a BS press release saying, "We got the deal we wanted."
LOL.
I don't PRETEND to know who will win. You do. That's the difference. I have my hope. I have my preference.

You're pretending to KNOW. If someone like you, who knows nothing about what is taking place at the bargaining table, KNOWS with certainty that the owners will win, why don't the players know it?

Quote:
It's not a matter of who is right or who is wrong. The only thing that matters is who has the leverage and who can fight indefinitely.
Baloney. Because the NHL owners can not afford to fight indefinitely.
The NHL owners are in a better position to win a fight, ARGUABLY, in a lockout that lasts a full year.
But what about year II?

What happens if there is still a lockout in January of 2014?

Do you think that someone who spent has borrowed $250 million to $500 million on a hockey franchise can sit back and watch that investment lose all its value?

At some point, the players are just losing money they would have made, It;s hypothetical, while the owners are losing money they have invested real money ---

Quote:
No they support the owners because they see an offer on the table that proposes they make 1.8 million instead of 2.1 million. They ask themselves, "Why arent they taking that deal?" It is the quickest way for the fans to get what they want. If i am spending my money on watching grown men play a children's game, I will be as selfish as i want.
Silly logic.
Why don't the owners accept the PA's last deal? It's the quickest way for the fans to get what they want.


Quote:
I am aware of the latest union backlash that has been going on in the States, (not sure about Canada), but like you said these things are cyclical, but even at the most extreme end of the spectrum, the UAW or whatever non pro sports related union is always going to get more support than a union with it's members who are multi millionaires.
You keep talking about these things like they are written in stone.






Quote:
It basically means you work in a less safe environment and you make significantly less money if you work in Europe. They dont provide any leverage for the players to use as a negotiating tactic to get the owners to fold.
Nobody is viewing the KHL is the longterm alternative to the NHL.
They're using it to stay in shape and make some extra money while the NHL owners continue to ruin the NHL.

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11-02-2012, 02:15 PM
  #72
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It's really simple actually. Players will lose because they are being herded off the cliff by Fehr who has brainwashed them into believing he can pull out another 1994.


I know i am right because one billion is bigger than one million.
I know i am right because Mike Ilitch owns half of Detroit and a highly profitable casino with dozens of other business ventures that fill his coffers.
I know i am right because Justin Abdelkader isnt going to get a 100k job working as an engineer at Ford. He is either going to play hockey or live with his parents in about 1-2 years. How many players have an actual skill they can use in the real world if they were to not play hockey? George Parros?

The cold hard truth will set you free. You have real hatred for the owners which is making you not see how utterly hopeless it is for the players. I think both are idiots. Unfortunately the idiot with the billion dollars who probably has a business degree and knows how to save his money is gonna outlast the millionaire who probably didnt graduate college and never took that free course at the local community college on how to balance your checkbook.

Remember in 2004 when the players were all huffing and puffing? Came back with hat in hand and loved the owners like nothing happened. (publicly)

It's gonna happen again.

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11-02-2012, 02:24 PM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
It's really simple actually. Players will lose because they are being herded off the cliff by Fehr who has brainwashed them into believing he can pull out another 1994.
More BOH BS.

Question: Do you think that, perhaps, the PA went out and hired the best PA Rep in the Biz -- for a reason?


Quote:
I know i am right because one billion is bigger than one million.

I know i am right because Mike Ilitch owns half of Detroit and a highly profitable casino with dozens of other business ventures that fill his coffers.
I know i am right because Justin Abdelkader isnt going to get a 100k job working as an engineer at Ford. He is either going to play hockey or live with his parents in about 1-2 years. How many players have an actual skill they can use in the real world if they were to not play hockey? George Parros?
And if and when Don Fehr smashes the NHL and eliminates the salary cap, you'll know how wrong you were.

IMO, if the NHL cancels the season, I think you're going to see different side of Don Fehr.
So far, Fehr has done NOTHING but give concessions. I think that tact will soon change.


Quote:
The cold hard truth will set you free. You have real hatred for the owners which is making you not see how utterly hopeless it is for the players. I think both are idiots. Unfortunately the idiot with the billion dollars who probably has a business degree and knows how to save his money is gonna outlast the millionaire who probably didnt graduate college and never took that free course at the local community college on how to balance your checkbook.
You're just talking.
You don't know jack squat. A business degree?? LOLOLOL


Quote:
Remember in 2004 when the players were all huffing and puffing? Came back with hat in hand and loved the owners like nothing happened. (publicly)
There has been more than one work stoppage in NHL History.

Go back to the BOH haters cocoon. That stuff flies unchallenged over.

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Old
11-02-2012, 02:27 PM
  #74
mindfly
KEN HOLLAND OUT
 
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Thinking about taking a year off from the nhl once they decide to play again, they have punched all the fans in their faces.

The worst part of this is definitely that there won't be a HBO 24/7, would have been awesome with some of the characters on this team.

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Old
11-02-2012, 02:32 PM
  #75
guinness
those were the days
 
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At this point, I don't even care anymore - that's something the owners aren't realizing about fans like me; I don't care about the NHL and I'm sick of strikes/lockouts. Whose at fault is just wasted hot air, I feel bad for the people that run or work at the restaurants and bars, or the people that work down at the arena, and I've met some of the folks down at the Joe, really great people, they're the ones hurting.

The owners will have their other interests, and the players can play elsewhere, maybe not making as much, but they aren't exactly hurting or working a 9-5.

The NHL is already the most irrelevant pro sport in the US, and it's getting totally pissed away.

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