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Old
11-02-2012, 03:34 PM
  #76
WingedWheel1987
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A business degree was the only thing that made sense. If i had said a philosophy degree it would have just sounded weird. The point i am trying to make is that they are better educated on finance's than the players who have to have it deciphered by someone else or just listen to everything Fehr says and assume he isnt feeding them garbage.

Ha ha ha, you actually think Don Fehr is going to get anything? You are deluded. He will only get what the owners were already willing to give up. Get rid of the salary cap and the owners will say non guaranteed contracts. (That Gomez contract would sure look good if it got voided) Escalation will only result in even more concessions by the players. The owners would love to play hardball. They know that is a fight they cant lose.

REMEMBER 1994!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is that the players rally cry?

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11-02-2012, 03:35 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by guinness View Post
At this point, I don't even care anymore - that's something the owners aren't realizing about fans like me; I don't care about the NHL and I'm sick of strikes/lockouts. Whose at fault is just wasted hot air, I feel bad for the people that run or work at the restaurants and bars, or the people that work down at the arena, and I've met some of the folks down at the Joe, really great people, they're the ones hurting.

The owners will have their other interests, and the players can play elsewhere, maybe not making as much, but they aren't exactly hurting or working a 9-5.

The NHL is already the most irrelevant pro sport in the US, and it's getting totally pissed away.
Millionaires and billionaires dont live in the real world. They simply dont care about anyone but themselves, and thus we have this lockout.

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11-02-2012, 03:38 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
A business degree was the only thing that made sense. If i had said a philosophy degree it would have just sounded weird. The point i am trying to make is that they are better educated on finance's than the players who have to have it deciphered by someone else or just listen to everything Fehr says and assume he isnt feeding them garbage.

Ha ha ha, you actually think Don Fehr is going to get anything? You are deluded. He will only get what the owners were already willing to give up. Get rid of the salary cap and the owners will say non guaranteed contracts. Escalation will only result in even more concessions by the players. The owners would love to play hardball. They know that is a fight they cant lose.
I don't THINK Don Fehr is going to get anything.
I think he will try.
I hope he succeeds.

How will it turn out? That remains to be seen.

You've been hanging around the Board of Haters too long,,WW. Where people post nonsense and every agrees, so they just start thinking it's true.

Your tough talk is laughable. Your "certainty" about all these things you know nothing about leaves no questioning in my mind about which of us is, as you say, "deluded."

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11-02-2012, 03:42 PM
  #79
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By the way, I'm not sure... but did Mike Ilitch even go to college? Not that it really matters.

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11-02-2012, 03:43 PM
  #80
WingedWheel1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't THINK Don Fehr is going to get anything.
I think he will try.
I hope he succeeds.

How will it turn out? That remains to be seen.

You've been hanging around the Board of Haters too long,,WW. Where people post nonsense and every agrees, so they just start thinking it's true.

Your tough talk is laughable. Your "certainty" about all these things you know nothing about leaves no questioning in my mind about which of us is, as you say, "deluded."
You keep ignoring how the majority of CBA negotiations have resulted in the players losing. You bring up 1994 like it actually matters. They call it a one trick pony for a reason. Who is deluded here? The person who hates the owners and wants the players to stick it to them and risk their livelihood in exchange for them potentially losing one year of their career which probably wont last longer than ten years (average NHL'er/i completely made this up, and is probably way lower) so they give up TEN PERCENT of their total earnings all because the owners deserve it just so they can stroke their ego's.

Or

The person who wants the players to accept an offer that wont get any better and they will still be making truck loads of cash and wont potentially lose ten percent of their career earnings.

I AM SOOOOO DELUDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELP ME CB, YOU ARE MY ONLY HOPE.

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11-02-2012, 04:05 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
You keep ignoring how the majority of CBA negotiations have resulted in the players losing. You bring up 1994 like it actually matters. They call it a one trick pony for a reason. Who is deluded here? The person who hates the owners and wants the players to stick it to them and risk their livelihood in exchange for them potentially losing one year of their career which probably wont last longer than ten years (average NHL'er/i completely made this up, and is probably way lower) so they give up TEN PERCENT of their total earnings all because the owners deserve it just so they can stroke their ego's.

Or

The person who wants the players to accept an offer that wont get any better and they will still be making truck loads of cash and wont potentially lose ten percent of their career earnings.

I AM SOOOOO DELUDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HELP ME CB, YOU ARE MY ONLY HOPE.
You seem to turn quickly to the ALL CAPS!!! style of discussion.

How many CBA negotiations have their been in the major 4 leagues in the last 30 years?
How many have been won by the owners?

Let me ask you a question: If the owners have all the cards and win all the CBAs, how in the damn hell did they end up in such a sorry place?

Think about it for a couple minutes before you reply.

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11-02-2012, 04:30 PM
  #82
WingedWheel1987
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
You seem to turn quickly to the ALL CAPS!!! style of discussion.

How many CBA negotiations have their been in the major 4 leagues in the last 30 years?
How many have been won by the owners?

Let me ask you a question: If the owners have all the cards and win all the CBAs, how in the damn hell did they end up in such a sorry place?

Think about it for a couple minutes before you reply.
The owners plan to lower costs didnt work. Now they are back to fix that mistake. Do you think i am going to say something else?

Can we just stick with the last twenty years? It's tough to compare the NFL work stoppage in 1982 in which the players were asking for such basic rights as unrestricted FA. I agree there are certain things that all professional players require and the owners should give it to them.

NBA

1998-1999 - Win for the owners. They got a reduced max salary and a rookie pay scale

2011 - Owners wanted hard cap and 800 million reduction in player revenue. Players eventually agreed to a 50/50 split. It wasnt exactly 50/50, but it averages out that way. 51% first year and can be anywhere between 49/51% every year after that. An even more exteme version of the luxury tax was implemented. Lakers current payroll with the new tax is 200 million dollars starting next year. This limits the majority of teams from going into the luxury tax. A sneaky way to bring down cost's, but the very best players still make max money because they will only play in big markets. Fair to say this is a win for the owners.

NFL

2011 - Owners wanted rookie wage scale and more revenue. They got both. Another win for the owners.


NHL

1994 - League was unsustainable thanks to over expansion so there needed to be some kind of subsidization. I blame this on the owners because they were greedy **** who gladly took those expansion fees and never gave them back after those markets started to suck. I still wouldnt characterize it as a win for the players. That rookie salary cap was a pretty nice addition for the owners though. No salary cap though...........just yet.

2004 -owners wanted a hard cap and salary rollbacks. Safe to say who won this one when it was first ratified. Obviously it ended up being a big win for the players since the owners cant stop themselves from spending even with a hardcap.

MLB 1994 - Owners got beat bad. They didnt get what they wanted and the players did. Lesson learned by MLB owners and owners of other pro sports teams. NEVER LET THE PLAYERS PLAY during a lockout.

Brings the win total to

Owners - 4

Players - 1

Tie - 1

I dont expect the players to get their second win any time soon. Obviously this is just my opinion on who came out on top, but the owners got their main sticking points almost every time.

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Old
11-02-2012, 04:33 PM
  #83
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Reading this is entertaining but...



It is clear the other person isn't coming to your side.

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Old
11-02-2012, 04:34 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
1) It's not a strike. It's a lockout.

A strike is when the players don't report to work.
A lockout is when the owners lock the doors and don't let the players work.

2) The only people who want a lockout are the owners. PERIOD. The players don't want a lockout. They were willing to play under the existing terms and offered to do so.
The owners chose to close down the league.

I don't support the lockout out.
But now that it's here, I support the owners losing the lockout badly, so that they don't do the same thing 5-6 years from now.
Fortunately the owners are smarter than you and realized that if they started a season with no CBA in place, the players would have gone on strike right as the playoffs would be set to start.

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11-02-2012, 04:41 PM
  #85
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Screw the NHL.

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11-02-2012, 05:32 PM
  #86
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what a joke
This.

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11-02-2012, 05:40 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Because you keep using general language like:
The owners have all the leverage because they are rich.

Well, In the case of Ford and the UAW, Ford should have all the leverage, right?

In the case of the steel workers vs the steel company, the company should have all the leverage right?
Ford and companies like them do not have a monopoly like the NHL and other major pro sports do in the U.S. Ford would lose millions and millions of dollars to similar companies and would be way behind their competition if a strike got ugly. Employees at those companies have some leverage due to the presence of viable competition in their market space.

The NHL has no competition in the U.S. within their target customer market. The owners are billionaires with a plethora of other business ventures and investments and will still be fabulously wealthy even without their NHL investment. The owners can hold out as long as they want and they know it. The players will have to cave at some point b/c the vast majority of the players have nowhere else to turn to make a substantial amount of money and need that income to enjoy their preferred lifestyle. The owners are significantly more business and financially savvy, more well connected and have far more experience in negotiations like these with their vast business experience. What happened in 1994 in MLB forever changed these types of negotiations and it will never happen again unless MLB, the NFL, NHL or NBA have viable competitors in the U.S. that destroys its monopoly. The players have no shot at winning and their best hope is a tie with roughly equal concessions. It's just a simple understanding of business and economics and the leverage wealthy people will have in monopolies.


Last edited by Roy S: 11-02-2012 at 07:09 PM.
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Old
11-02-2012, 07:16 PM
  #88
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Cancelled Winter Classic, the Wings likely a mediocre team when play starts again..could this be the start of a new dark era for hockey in Detroit?

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Old
11-02-2012, 09:45 PM
  #89
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what a shame, let's hope they rescedule it to 2014.
The email I received today stated that "the NHL has confirmed that the next Winter Classic will be played at Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor and will include the Hockeytown Winter Festival at Comerica Park in Detroit."

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Why do you keep pretending that pro sports unions and regular unions like the UAW are remotely comparable?
The UAW is not a normal union. It holds a labor monopoly over a vital industry. In the past it has used the threat of "selective striking" - threatening to strike against only one of Ford/GM/Chrysler while negotiating contracts with more than one - to gain better contracts across the board. Crippling contracts, in fact.

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11-02-2012, 10:40 PM
  #90
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Fortunately the owners are smarter than you and realized that if they started a season with no CBA in place, the players would have gone on strike right as the playoffs would be set to start.
Right. Because it sure seems like the Players have a problem with 57 percent,

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11-02-2012, 10:42 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Roy S View Post
Ford and companies like them do not have a monopoly like the NHL and other major pro sports do in the U.S. Ford would lose millions and millions of dollars to similar companies and would be way behind their competition if a strike got ugly. Employees at those companies have some leverage due to the presence of viable competition in their market space.

The NHL has no competition in the U.S. within their target customer market. The owners are billionaires with a plethora of other business ventures and investments and will still be fabulously wealthy even without their NHL investment. The owners can hold out as long as they want and they know it. The players will have to cave at some point b/c the vast majority of the players have nowhere else to turn to make a substantial amount of money and need that income to enjoy their preferred lifestyle. The owners are significantly more business and financially savvy, more well connected and have far more experience in negotiations like these with their vast business experience. What happened in 1994 in MLB forever changed these types of negotiations and it will never happen again unless MLB, the NFL, NHL or NBA have viable competitors in the U.S. that destroys its monopoly. The players have no shot at winning and their best hope is a tie with roughly equal concessions. It's just a simple understanding of business and economics and the leverage wealthy people will have in monopolies.
Haha. Sure.. It's just a simple understanding of economics.

So tell me why players make so much money that 18 owners are losing money?

Is it because the players have no leverage?

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11-03-2012, 01:19 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Haha. Sure.. It's just a simple understanding of economics.

So tell me why players make so much money that 18 owners are losing money?

Is it because the players have no leverage?
The most important thing for the owners is the net worth or value of their franchise compared to what it was purchased at. From that perspective, most of the owners are doing very well and making a lot of money on paper.

The fact that 18 owners are losing revenue means that the previous CBA is not a sustainable business model for the long term and that is a goal they are trying to fix this time around.

But, that still doesn't mean the players have leverage- the owners have enough wealth that they can absorb those losses without much problem. The players can't afford to lose their income- their shelf life as a player is limited. People with business and financial savvy and hundreds of millions to billions of dollars have no shelf life and are a far rarer commodity than a professional athlete.

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11-03-2012, 01:30 PM
  #93
WingedWheel1987
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The email I received today stated that "the NHL has confirmed that the next Winter Classic will be played at Michigan Stadium in Ann Arbor and will include the Hockeytown Winter Festival at Comerica Park in Detroit."



The UAW is not a normal union. It holds a labor monopoly over a vital industry. In the past it has used the threat of "selective striking" - threatening to strike against only one of Ford/GM/Chrysler while negotiating contracts with more than one - to gain better contracts across the board. Crippling contracts, in fact.
My comparison was only used because a typical union is not full of millionaires.

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Old
11-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
That Lokomotiv comment might have been distasteful
In your defense.... I didn't even see you mention the Lokomotiv crash. I saw you reference the sad and unsafe state of Russian aviation, and it was relevant to what you were saying. Nothing distasteful about that. It's a factor that makes the KHL less competitive.

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11-03-2012, 03:47 PM
  #95
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At this point, I don't even care anymore - that's something the owners aren't realizing about fans like me; I don't care about the NHL and I'm sick of strikes/lockouts. Whose at fault is just wasted hot air, I feel bad for the people that run or work at the restaurants and bars, or the people that work down at the arena, and I've met some of the folks down at the Joe, really great people, they're the ones hurting.

The owners will have their other interests, and the players can play elsewhere, maybe not making as much, but they aren't exactly hurting or working a 9-5.

The NHL is already the most irrelevant pro sport in the US, and it's getting totally pissed away.
I agree with your sentiment (which I find to be rapidly growing in popularity), and especially the bolded. That part is often overlooked in all this. The people who are really suffering as a result of the lockout are the ones with the least amount of leverage and the most to lose. It's really too bad.

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:51 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I agree with your sentiment (which I find to be rapidly growing in popularity), and especially the bolded. That part is often overlooked in all this. The people who are really suffering as a result of the lockout are the ones with the least amount of leverage and the most to lose. It's really too bad.
Double agreed.

The NHL was a joke in 1994 to people: http://www.hulu.com/watch/125864

We could just replay the same skit today. Not much progress in 20 years in regards to that.

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Old
11-13-2012, 12:03 PM
  #97
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What I'd like to know is, where are all the people who boo Bettman at hockey games?
They;re not on HFboards. If HFboards went to hockey games, the fans would be throwing rose petals at Bettman
Speak for yourself. :-)

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11-13-2012, 12:07 PM
  #98
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By the way, I'm not sure... but did Mike Ilitch even go to college? Not that it really matters.
He did not. Graduated high school, joined the Marines, did 4 years, played minor league baseball for 4 years, then started his pizza business when he blew out his knee.

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11-13-2012, 12:14 PM
  #99
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Screw the NHL.
Yeah, I'm ready for another attempt at a WHA revival. Get the paddles up and charge 'em, gang. Maybe we can get someone who'll provide some stability during start-up this time.

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01-01-2013, 12:23 PM
  #100
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Totally perfect weather today for an outdoor game...

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