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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #51
tantalum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
THREE days ago and there's been no response at all from the players yet? Really??

If it's some or all, the deal has to get done in a matter of days. It's really that simple.
Depends. The NHL may just be calling a PA bluff. All along the NHL had made tweaks to proposals to signal a willingness to address the PA talking point of the day. The latest one was "make whole". In the end the NHL I think really only truly cares about a couple of things. The major thing is a fully linked system at a 50:50ish split early in the new CBA. The next thing is closing up of the front loaded contracts loophole (and tacked on imaginary years).

If the PA remains steadfast in its refusal for a true full linked system I don't see much happening.

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11-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
THREE days ago and there's been no response at all from the players yet? Really??

If it's some or all, the deal has to get done in a matter of days. It's really that simple.
Nah brah. Owners are stalling...

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:07 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
The NHL's verbal offer to absorb some or all of Make Whole was made Tuesday. 3 days ago?? PA wants more detail before getting too excited.

Woah?
Hmmm.
This could be a ploy to push Fehr out of the way somewhat.
Did the players know this happened 3 days ago?

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:07 PM
  #54
CBJBrassard16
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Not excited because on Wednesday Shea Weber said there was nothing new. So I guess the players don't like it.

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11-02-2012, 06:09 PM
  #55
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http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=4087...ce=twitterfeed

Here it is in written form

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:09 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Hmmm.
This could be a ploy to push Fehr out of the way somewhat.
Did the players know this happened 3 days ago?
yea this is a bit weird, alot of negative comments from players lately yet the owners just made this offer?

Was it only made to fehr specifically or something?

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11-02-2012, 06:10 PM
  #57
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Players probably didn't know.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sniper Archetype View Post
Players probably didn't know.
Then why call the very very long conference call on Wednesday?

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:11 PM
  #59
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Either the players hate the idea or most of them have yet to hear about this.

We heard positive dialogue was happening all week so it's really not THAT much of a shock. The PA get the benefit of the doubt here, don't ask why but they just do. I'm gonna say this is fresh stuff that's really only making it to the all the players now.

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11-02-2012, 06:12 PM
  #60
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I don't know how you can keep spinning the NHLPA's poor offers so far.

Just for everyone's information, here is 5% growth rate with flat revenue year 1. I calculated how many UFA dollars are removed each year. In order to get to 50/50, BOTH NHLPA and NHL plans have to reduce contracts by 13% (or 7% of total revenue). The only difference is that the NHLPA plan 'hides' it outside the cap and the NHL plan defers it to future years.

Either way, this 13% has to be paid somehow, sometime, by someone. Now (NHLPA) or later (NHL) and who is to be determined.

Revenue: $3.3B, $3.4B, $3.6B, $3.8B, $4B, $4.1B
Player salary (in pre-lockout dollars, billions): 1.8, 1.4, 0.9, 0.7, 0.5
13% of player salary (millions): $229, 185, 131, 102, 73....

By year 4 the two offers have essentially converged at 1% more for players.

If the NHL absorbs $150M out of $229M of the first year devaluation, that means they are willing to take on 66% of the 'make whole' cost. This would have to be re-evaluated on a yearly basis. If I was the NHLPA, I would negotiate a guaranteed re-calculation of the 'make whole' for the entire term of the CBA (if league revenues do not grow fast enough, there will be shortfalls for more than two years).

I'm sorry, but if the NHLPA aren't willing to wait a little extra time to get the face value paid out on this, they're utterly stupid.

In case someone is going to question my math, these numbers are slightly above what Fehr put in his own memo (I trust capgeek's numbers over his, and I think it's best to be conservative).

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11-02-2012, 06:13 PM
  #61
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Honestly, some of you. Do you think the League has gracioulsy offered to "make whole" player contracts out of the goodness of their hearts?!

Let's see some of the details before we demand the PA sign on the dotted line.

Again, the NHL claimed the last offer contained "no rollback" of player salaries.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:13 PM
  #62
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This had to have been discussed during that long conference call and the PA is just keeping very close to the chest and not letting much get out to the public. All an illusion.

They are probably jumping all over this and literally salivating at the offer, they can't let the owners know that though so that they can get as much as possible back in other areas. This is where Fehr now makes his money. He could get the players the main thing they wanted PLUS other benefits as well.

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11-02-2012, 06:13 PM
  #63
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My guess is that players didn't know until the conference call yesterday. Would explain Portzline's tweets last night.

They were posted on here last night, but I'll repost them for clarity...

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Told NHL - NHLPA were to chat via phone tonight after informal chats today. Hope is to come out of this with plans for formal talks soon.

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Have to say, players I spoke with tonight offered little or no details ... but sounded strangely optimistic. #NHLlockout

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:14 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
Honestly, some of you. Do you think the League has gracioulsy offered to "make whole" player contracts out of the goodness of their hearts?!

Let's see some of the details before we demand the PA sign on the dotted line.

Again, the NHL claimed the last offer contained "no rollback" of player salaries.
At least they are trying man.

Which side has shown more of a desire to get back playing? Honestly....

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyKing17 View Post
My guess is that players didn't know until the conference call yesterday. Would explain Portzline's tweets last night.

They were posted on here last night, but I'll repost them for clarity...

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Told NHL - NHLPA were to chat via phone tonight after informal chats today. Hope is to come out of this with plans for formal talks soon.

Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Have to say, players I spoke with tonight offered little or no details ... but sounded strangely optimistic. #NHLlockout
I was wondering what that was about. It definitely makes sense now.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #66
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One thing underrated here. If the deal got done next week, they could still play a lot of games. The Oct. 26th offer implied only 7-10 days needed from the deal before the start of a season. Therefore a season hypothetically could start on something like November 15th. If they couldn't make 82 Gs with that start date I bet it'd be 75 Gs+

I think one of the reasons the owners are willing to give this Make Whole is that they realized the next few weeks is essential in regards to how much revenue they'll make this year. If this goes nowhere for 2 weeks, the WC will be fully dead and chances are negotiations will shut down for another month. At that point they'll be losing games in bunches. Giving the make whole right now is a better financial idea than losing 20 Gs

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #67
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If the players union doesn't take advantage of this concession to start serious negotiations they are absolutely [mod: stupid].


Last edited by Fugu: 11-02-2012 at 09:18 PM. Reason: some people find that term offensive
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Old
11-02-2012, 06:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Not excited because on Wednesday Shea Weber said there was nothing new. So I guess the players don't like it.
How do you think it was presented to them, if at all?

Form various reports the PA phone call was about the PA pressuring the players to stick together and the players "imploring" the PA to get back to the bargaining table.

The owners obviously don't trust the spin the Fehrs are giving the players for any of their offers because they think they have hijacked the process for their own agenda.

And the more of this kind of stuff we see, the more likely it is that they are right.

Fehr is likely trying to think up a way the this offer can be spun as another"insult' to the players.

But some of the players must be realizing that they are caught in the back of a runaway train.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #69
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I would say that if the players tell the league to eat dirt on this offer and whine that they want more, the chances of the full season being cancelled jump to like 75%

THIS is a make or break in the process.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVP of West Hollywd View Post
One thing underrated here. If the deal got done next week, they could still play a lot of games. The Oct. 26th offer implied only 7-10 days needed from the deal before the start of a season. Therefore a season hypothetically could start on something like November 15th. If they couldn't make 82 Gs with that start date I bet it'd be 75 Gs+

I think one of the reasons the owners are willing to give this Make Whole is that they realized the next few weeks is essential in regards to how much revenue they'll make this year. If this goes nowhere for 2 weeks, the WC will be fully dead and chances are negotiations will shut down for another month. At that point they'll be losing games in bunches. Giving the make whole right now is a better financial idea than losing 20 Gs
Yes, but with the Oct. 26th deadline, at that point the plan was to sort of cut and paste the first part of the season. Very little changes to the schedule would have been necessary. With a shorter season, they'd have to rearrange a few games to make the whole divisional/conference play work. It would take longer to start the shortened season.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
Honestly, some of you. Do you think the League has gracioulsy offered to "make whole" player contracts out of the goodness of their hearts?!

Let's see some of the details before we demand the PA sign on the dotted line.

Again, the NHL claimed the last offer contained "no rollback" of player salaries.
Kopitar (face value, old CBA): $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M + $6.8M = $27.2M

Kopitar (NHL 50/50): $5.9M + $6.2M + $7.5M + $7.5M = $27.2M

Oh, please. They have to wait until the end of their deals to get <$1M WITH INTEREST? What a sacrifice. So unacceptable.

There was no rollback. There was deferment. The face value of the contract (which they are not even legally entitled to) is paid out.

If you want to say 'the present value of money is higher than the future value' then you have a point. But enough with this 'rollback' BS.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #72
pepty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
Honestly, some of you. Do you think the League has gracioulsy offered to "make whole" player contracts out of the goodness of their hearts?!

Let's see some of the details before we demand the PA sign on the dotted line.

Again, the NHL claimed the last offer contained "no rollback" of player salaries.
I think they are offering this because they would like to save the season.

Don't know the motivation of the PA though,but I guess we'll see how this plays out and that will answer a lot of questions.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:23 PM
  #73
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How 'bout a home and away with every team in the league plus a few extra divisional games:

Outside Division: 2x25=50
In division: 4x4=16

Total: 66 games

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:24 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I'm pro-NHL at this stage, but they haven't made a single concession if you compare with the CBA that just expired...at some point, they will have to in order to get an agreement done. Just like in 2005 when they gave players much lower UFA age.

If you compare their recent offers to their insulting offer of July, then yeah, there have been tons of concessions.
This

We do know that the NHL made one concession with an increase revenuw sharing amount, we just don't know the terms. Which were the problem in the last CBA

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:26 PM
  #75
mossey3535
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Originally Posted by pepty View Post
How do you think it was presented to them, if at all?

Form various reports the PA phone call was about the PA pressuring the players to stick together and the players "imploring" the PA to get back to the bargaining table.

The owners obviously don't trust the spin the Fehrs are giving the players for any of their offers because they think they have hijacked the process for their own agenda.

And the more of this kind of stuff we see, the more likely it is that they are right.

Fehr is likely trying to think up a way the this offer can be spun as another"insult' to the players.

But some of the players must be realizing that they are caught in the back of a runaway train.
This rings of truth.

I still don't understand what Fehr's plan B is. I call him stupid out of frustration, but I like to think he has some plan. I just don't see what it could be.

And this 'lockout to end lockouts' thing is stupid. Both sides should retain the right (strike, lockout) to fight for a fair CBA deal. And I fail to see why it would beat back owner resolve when the players are the ones who are the most vulnerable financially - that will never change.

Any poster on this board could have negotiated what the NHL offered already. I don't buy that 'not negotiating' has been an effective tactic for the NHLPA. Hints of this deal have been floating around since day one.

Again, I am welcome to any mathematical explanation of what the NHLPA's possible endgame is.

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