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Old
11-02-2012, 09:16 AM
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Why do the leafs fans always go after our players? Once Jeff Carter was gone I thought that would be the end of it. Anyway to answer the 1st post. My answer is no. The Flyers will not move Sean for that package. If he is moved it will be with another team for a better deal. Bye.
Probably because of the following reasons:

1. Burke mentored Holmgren early in his career
2. The two teams have made a couple of transactions over the passed two seasons.
3. Most other GM's are to afraid to make a significant move
4. Both teams are willing to trade what the other needs
5. Leafs like winning their trades, so why not deal with philly

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11-02-2012, 09:29 AM
  #102
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No reason for Philly to move Couturier for nothing less than a sure upgrade at the back-end.
yeah absolutely bang on................ Komisarek it is

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11-02-2012, 09:52 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Probably because of the following reasons:

1. Burke mentored Holmgren early in his career
2. The two teams have made a couple of transactions over the passed two seasons.
3. Most other GM's are to afraid to make a significant move
4. Both teams are willing to trade what the other needs
5. Leafs like winning their trades, so why not deal with philly
Yeah, Philadelphia's record of getting fleeced in deals clearly explains why they've spent much of the past decade in the cellar... oh, wait...

It's too early to tell on the Schenn-JVR deal, clearly. I suspect that will end up looking better for Toronto, but who knows. It's possible that Luke's play coupled with whatever benefit the move provides Brayden in terms of comfort, etc., will be worth it for the Flyers, but JVr seemed like a pretty big piece to give up for another second pairing defenseman.

That said, I'm not entirely clear what you're referring to, implying the Flyers have a record of badly losing deals. Certainly not the Richards and Carter trades, right? Sure, they won a cup, in LA, and most Flyers fans are happy for them, but I doubt you'd find many who would swap the pieces we got in return to have them back...

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11-02-2012, 09:54 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Yeah, Philadelphia's record of getting fleeced in deals clearly explains why they've spent much of the past decade in the cellar... oh, wait...

It's too early to tell on the Schenn-JVR deal, clearly. I suspect that will end up looking better for Toronto, but who knows. It's possible that Luke's play coupled with whatever benefit the move provides Brayden in terms of comfort, etc., will be worth it for the Flyers, but JVr seemed like a pretty big piece to give up for another second pairing defenseman.

That said, I'm not entirely clear what you're referring to, implying the Flyers have a record of badly losing deals. Certainly not the Richards and Carter trades, right? Sure, they won a cup, in LA, and most Flyers fans are happy for them, but I doubt you'd find many who would swap the pieces we got in return to have them back...
The carter trade was an absolute fleecing by you guys, I personally wouldn't deal Richards though and I think the return was good, but not the best.

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11-02-2012, 10:15 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
The carter trade was an absolute fleecing by you guys, I personally wouldn't deal Richards though and I think the return was good, but not the best.
They got Schenn and Simmonds for him which I would say is a good haul.

It is a rare trade that I think both sides will benefit from ultimately.

As a Toronto fan though I can't imagine ever dealing a C of Richards quality for anything given how hard up we are for that position.

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11-02-2012, 10:33 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
They got Schenn and Simmonds for him which I would say is a good haul.

It is a rare trade that I think both sides will benefit from ultimately.

As a Toronto fan though I can't imagine ever dealing a C of Richards quality for anything given how hard up we are for that position.
Flyers just replaced Richards/Carter with Giroux

Nice problem to have, and now Schenn & Couturier are here.

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11-02-2012, 10:35 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Flyers just replaced Richards/Carter with Giroux

Nice problem to have, and now Schenn & Couturier are here.
Not to mention they were also making cap space. Now unfortunately Bryzgalov hasn't been as good as hoped. But imagine he was playing as initially advertised? Because indirectly getting him ultimately was a large benefit/motivation of those deals.

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11-02-2012, 11:38 AM
  #108
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This trade proposal, (minus MacArthur) might make more sense in 2-3 years when Gardiner and Couturier have become more established.

The Flyers need to win a Cup in a couple of seasons and need a proven asset.

While the Leafs aren't in win-now mode, Burke is in, keep-job mode, and needs to be guarded in protecting the VERY few tradeable assets he has.

So as a Flyers fan from Toronto, neither team should do this.

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Old
11-02-2012, 12:16 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Yeah, Philadelphia's record of getting fleeced in deals clearly explains why they've spent much of the past decade in the cellar... oh, wait...

It's too early to tell on the Schenn-JVR deal, clearly. I suspect that will end up looking better for Toronto, but who knows. It's possible that Luke's play coupled with whatever benefit the move provides Brayden in terms of comfort, etc., will be worth it for the Flyers, but JVr seemed like a pretty big piece to give up for another second pairing defenseman.

That said, I'm not entirely clear what you're referring to, implying the Flyers have a record of badly losing deals. Certainly not the Richards and Carter trades, right? Sure, they won a cup, in LA, and most Flyers fans are happy for them, but I doubt you'd find many who would swap the pieces we got in return to have them back...
Was just kidding..

The versteeg and JVR trades werent all that lopsided. The versteeg trade wouldnt have looked so bad if you hadnt ended up flipping him for a 2nd...

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Old
11-02-2012, 02:53 PM
  #110
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For people questioning Couturier's offensive upside, remember that he was playing in a shutdown role on the 4th line. Despite this, he also had a 5 game goal scoring streak and was second on the team in +/- with +18 (Hartnell was +19). He also had 2 shorthanded goals (tied for most on the team) and 4 game winning goals (tied for 3 most on the team). Oh and he also scored 3g 1a in a playoff game matched against this years Hart, Art Ross, and Lindsay winner while keeping him to one even strength point.

He also has the draft pedigree of a offensive #1C having the highest ppg of anyone in the draft while also playing with Mononucleosis. He still matched his point totals from his previous year which lead the league while playing 10 less games

That's all mighty impressive for an 18 y/o imo

I don't have anything to say about Gardiner because I dont watch the Leafs, but I wouldn't trade Couts for anything

also, here's his points from this year. I think you'll agree that he his poise with the puck is noticeable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJp7jttPdz4


Last edited by Cyborg LeClair: 11-02-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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Old
11-02-2012, 03:03 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
Why do the leafs fans always go after our players? Once Jeff Carter was gone I thought that would be the end of it. Anyway to answer the 1st post. My answer is no. The Flyers will not move Sean for that package. If he is moved it will be with another team for a better deal. Bye.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you guys always seem to have a surplus of centers and lacking on D, while we are always lacking a top end center and too many D.

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11-02-2012, 05:27 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Cyborg LeClair View Post
For people questioning Couturier's offensive upside, remember that he was playing in a shutdown role on the 4th line. Despite this, he also had a 5 game goal scoring streak and was second on the team in +/- with +18 (Hartnell was +19). He also had 2 shorthanded goals (tied for most on the team) and 4 game winning goals (tied for 3 most on the team). Oh and he also scored 3g 1a in a playoff game matched against this years Hart, Art Ross, and Lindsay winner while keeping him to one even strength point.

He also has the draft pedigree of a offensive #1C having the highest ppg of anyone in the draft while also playing with Mononucleosis. He still matched his point totals from his previous year which lead the league while playing 10 less games

That's all mighty impressive for an 18 y/o imo

I don't have anything to say about Gardiner because I dont watch the Leafs, but I wouldn't trade Couts for anything

also, here's his points from this year. I think you'll agree that he his poise with the puck is noticeable
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJp7jttPdz4
I think Gardiner knows puck poise too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74GSd...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yDy7...feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLZhP...tailpage#t=66s

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Old
11-02-2012, 05:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you guys always seem to have a surplus of centers and lacking on D, while we are always lacking a top end center and too many D.
Well, the thing is, the Flyers aren't lacking one 2-4 D. They have like 5 of them. They lack a #1.

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11-02-2012, 06:21 PM
  #114
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1. Gardiner is a defenseman (and was in university before this past year) playing top minutes. Couturier is a forward playing 3rd line minutes.
2. Corsi is flawed on its own, and the difference between them is negligible. Offensive zone starts means diddly squat. I'm not sure why people use that as an argument. Gardiner was used against top players many times, and played in all situations at all times.

Given the TOI discrepancies, Gardiner actually probably played more against top opposing players than Couturier.

Gardiner had a better rookie season in essentially every way. Gardiner is more valuable. It's that simple.


What a short memory you have. Leaf fans were laughed at for proposing Schenn for JVR. And look what happened.
Gardiner is a defenseman playing a lot of minutes. Not top minutes. There is a difference. Top minutes would be out there against the toughest competition, in the toughest areas of the ice. A player can play a lot of minutes and still be sheltered defensively.

Having a better rookie season doesn't make Gardiner more valuable. He's got a couple of years on Couturier, which means he should be more polished at this stage in his career. Where do you think Couturier will be 3 years from now? Probably quite a bit further along than Gardiner was this last season. Value doesn't exist strictly on a "What can they do for you right now?" basis, certainly not for young players like Couturier or Gardiner.

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11-02-2012, 06:30 PM
  #115
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wow, i've never watched anything from this guy. Looks pretty good for a 22 year old.

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11-02-2012, 06:36 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Well, the thing is, the Flyers aren't lacking one 2-4 D. They have like 5 of them. They lack a #1.
You are telling me the Flyers wouldn't love to have Gardiner?

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11-02-2012, 06:39 PM
  #117
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You are telling me the Flyers wouldn't love to have Gardiner?
Sure, but definitely not at the expense of Couturier.

Flyers management loves Schenn and Couturier (from all indications). They have been reluctant to include them for some major pieces (Ryan, Weber, Nash).

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11-03-2012, 02:00 AM
  #118
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Gardiner is a defenseman playing a lot of minutes. Not top minutes. There is a difference. Top minutes would be out there against the toughest competition, in the toughest areas of the ice. A player can play a lot of minutes and still be sheltered defensively.

Having a better rookie season doesn't make Gardiner more valuable. He's got a couple of years on Couturier, which means he should be more polished at this stage in his career. Where do you think Couturier will be 3 years from now? Probably quite a bit further along than Gardiner was this last season. Value doesn't exist strictly on a "What can they do for you right now?" basis, certainly not for young players like Couturier or Gardiner.
Except he did play minutes against top players as well, at important times. And since he played so much more time than Couturier overall, he actually likely ended up playing more real time against top players than Couturier. It is essentially impossible to play 22 minutes, play in all situations, and still be sheltered.

Also, age means very little, especially since Gardiner is a defenseman (who take longer to develop) and he came from a harder-to-adjust league.

I highly doubt Couturier will be much further along, if at all further along when he is 21.

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11-03-2012, 04:55 AM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Except he did play minutes against top players as well, at important times. And since he played so much more time than Couturier overall, he actually likely ended up playing more real time against top players than Couturier. It is essentially impossible to play 22 minutes, play in all situations, and still be sheltered.

Also, age means very little, especially since Gardiner is a defenseman (who take longer to develop) and he came from a harder-to-adjust league.

I highly doubt Couturier will be much further along, if at all further along when he is 21.
May I ask why you feel this way?

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11-03-2012, 05:55 AM
  #120
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May I ask why you feel this way?
Because from watching Couturier, I don't see the offensive instinct or ability at the NHL level that would be required for a legitimate first line player.

I think he maxes out as a Kesler or Staal (even then, that is pushing it), and those types of players don't usually develop as quickly. And I think he has to approach that and at least be a legitimate 2nd-liner to compare to the season Gardiner had last year.

Still doesn't matter, because experience is a better way to judge than age, especially when they play different positions. And fact is, Gardiner had a better rookie year, and both have just as much potential from here.

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11-03-2012, 07:00 AM
  #121
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Gardiner is a defenseman playing a lot of minutes. Not top minutes. There is a difference. Top minutes would be out there against the toughest competition, in the toughest areas of the ice. A player can play a lot of minutes and still be sheltered defensively.

Having a better rookie season doesn't make Gardiner more valuable. He's got a couple of years on Couturier, which means he should be more polished at this stage in his career. Where do you think Couturier will be 3 years from now? Probably quite a bit further along than Gardiner was this last season. Value doesn't exist strictly on a "What can they do for you right now?" basis, certainly not for young players like Couturier or Gardiner.
Gardiner was drafted as a raw, unpolished talent. He also only started playing D a couple years prior to be being drafted. Coutourier was definately drafted as being more NHL ready than Gardiner, not all players develop at the same rate. Take Luke Schenn, he was from the same 1st round as Gardiner, makes the NHL straight out of the draft...3 years later and he's no further along in his development and getting outplayed by the rookie Gardiner.

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11-03-2012, 10:34 AM
  #122
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Except he did play minutes against top players as well, at important times. And since he played so much more time than Couturier overall, he actually likely ended up playing more real time against top players than Couturier. It is essentially impossible to play 22 minutes, play in all situations, and still be sheltered.

Also, age means very little, especially since Gardiner is a defenseman (who take longer to develop) and he came from a harder-to-adjust league.

I highly doubt Couturier will be much further along, if at all further along when he is 21.
Yes, so in 2 seasons Couturier won't progress

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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Because from watching Couturier, I don't see the offensive instinct or ability at the NHL level that would be required for a legitimate first line player.

I think he maxes out as a Kesler or Staal (even then, that is pushing it), and those types of players don't usually develop as quickly. And I think he has to approach that and at least be a legitimate 2nd-liner to compare to the season Gardiner had last year.

Still doesn't matter, because experience is a better way to judge than age, especially when they play different positions. And fact is, Gardiner had a better rookie year, and both have just as much potential from here.
You obviously did not watch Couturier, then. He best asset is his hockey IQ, or as you put it, offensive instinct. That's his best trait as a player.

You do understand how utterly absurd your above statement sounds, correct? Well, aren't you the guy who said that you would take Kessel over Seguin and Hamilton? lol.

Anyway, so Couturier will not progress even though:

-He will get more ES ice time
-He will get more PP time
-He will get better linemates (Couturier's most common linemates last year were Zac Rinaldo [4th line fringe NHL player agitator] and Max Talbot [bottom 6 checker]
-He will get better offensive opportunities (i.e. not starting in his own zone as much)
-General progression of a young player

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11-03-2012, 11:08 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Because from watching Couturier, I don't see the offensive instinct or ability at the NHL level that would be required for a legitimate first line player.

I think he maxes out as a Kesler or Staal (even then, that is pushing it), and those types of players don't usually develop as quickly. And I think he has to approach that and at least be a legitimate 2nd-liner to compare to the season Gardiner had last year.

Still doesn't matter, because experience is a better way to judge than age, especially when they play different positions. And fact is, Gardiner had a better rookie year, and both have just as much potential from here.
You're just being a hater. To say Cout won't improve at all from now until he's 21 is absurd and a desperate grasp at straws to help prove your silly point. What 18 year old comes into the NHL and immediately puts up tons of points? How did Joe Thornton look when he was 18? Anyone who watched him knows he has offensive skills. He has the best wrist shot on the team. He'll get more of a chance to score this year and the years after. Value-wise Couturier > Gardiner and any GM in the league will agree

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11-03-2012, 11:24 AM
  #124
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Yes, so in 2 seasons Couturier won't progress

You obviously did not watch Couturier, then. He best asset is his hockey IQ, or as you put it, offensive instinct. That's his best trait as a player.

You do understand how utterly absurd your above statement sounds, correct? Well, aren't you the guy who said that you would take Kessel over Seguin and Hamilton? lol.

Anyway, so Couturier will not progress even though:

-He will get more ES ice time
-He will get more PP time
-He will get better linemates (Couturier's most common linemates last year were Zac Rinaldo [4th line fringe NHL player agitator] and Max Talbot [bottom 6 checker]
-He will get better offensive opportunities (i.e. not starting in his own zone as much)
-General progression of a young player
1. Hockey IQ does not mean offensive ability.

2. I did not say Couturier wouldn't progress. I said I doubt he progresses past what Gardiner was last year in that short time frame.

3. Offensive zone starts is pretty much 100% useless. Means nothing. I am sick of people using that argument. The 2 seconds it takes to skate up the ice is irrelevant.

4. Extra TOI doesn't always mean exponential production growth. To give you a comparison with a similar player, Staal played 14:56 per game in his rookie season and scored 29 goals and 42 points. Couturier played 14:08 per game in his rookie season, and scored 13 goals and 27 points. For the past few seasons, Staal has had greatly increased minutes and better linemates, and he still has not surpassed 50 points in any season. He played 20 minutes per game last year, including 2 minutes per game of PP time and increased opportunities, and he topped out at 50 points (66-point pace). Why is a similar player with a significantly worse rookie season with similar circumstances going to be so much better?

5. I don't believe I ever said that regarding Kessel, and I am not sure how that is at all relevant.

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11-03-2012, 11:27 AM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
To say Cout won't improve at all from now until he's 21 is absurd and a desperate grasp at straws to help prove your silly point.
Not what I said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
What 18 year old comes into the NHL and immediately puts up tons of points?
Ones that command the value that Flyers fans are putting on Couturier.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Octagon View Post
Value-wise Couturier > Gardiner and any GM in the league will agree
Which GMs do you know personally?

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