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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:26 PM
  #76
Alan Jackson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepty View Post
I think they are offering this because they would like to save the season.

Don't know the motivation of the PA though,but I guess we'll see how this plays out and that will answer a lot of questions.
That's fair. Again, this has to be considered a positive step, but until we have few more details, we shouldn't be shouting that the PA "has to" agree to it.

It could well be that the owners have agreed to "make whole", but also want to redefine HRR. Who knows?

We should get an indication which way this is going by early next week.

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11-02-2012, 06:28 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
How 'bout a home and away with every team in the league plus a few extra divisional games:

Outside Division: 2x25=50
In division: 4x4=16

Total: 66 games
Teams won't go for it due to travel.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Alan Jackson View Post
That's fair. Again, this has to be considered a positive step, but until we have few more details, we shouldn't be shouting that the PA "has to" agree to it.

It could well be that the owners have agreed to "make whole", but also want to redefine HRR. Who knows?

We should get an indication which way this is going by early next week.
The NHL has already given up on HRR definitions. The only reason they wanted clarification is because the NHLPA ambushed them on the Nashville and Phoenix public subsidies being put into HRR. They gave up on that, too.

This is a last-ditch effort. I don't think they'll put in a major issue like that, especially now that they've seen how the PA has spun the HRR thing.

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11-02-2012, 06:30 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by CanadianHockey View Post
What? Of course Bettman's supporting the owners proposal. He is the head of negotiations for them, he's the one presenting this to them.
If i'm reading history correctly a deal had been negotiated in the 2004-5 lockout and he came in and trashed it. Just because the league negotiators come up with something doesn't mean everyone's on board.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:34 PM
  #80
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This new Make Whole is not a major concession. It's not even a concession... A concession would be taking a % of the signed contracts and converting it to a bonus paid up front to the players...

It"s taking some money from the players that would become due and giving it a new term to be paid by who knows who or what. It benefits the owners substantially, otherwise why bother not leaving the signed contracts alone and ending this mess.

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11-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LadyKing17 View Post
Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Have to say, players I spoke with tonight offered little or no details ... but sounded strangely optimistic. #NHLlockout
I think this is an accurate read. When I was watching That's Hockey earlier one of the things that struck me (Besides the impression that Dreger seemed relieved that things appeared to be moving - which beats his usual negativity by a mile) was Mike Johnson's seemingly positive response to the owners' move. He usually so pro-player I was surprised and that's probably the one thing this week that has given me some hope that we may have (even minimal) movement somewhere in this mess.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:35 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
The NHL has already given up on HRR definitions. The only reason they wanted clarification is because the NHLPA ambushed them on the Nashville and Phoenix public subsidies being put into HRR. They gave up on that, too.

This is a last-ditch effort. I don't think they'll put in a major issue like that, especially now that they've seen how the PA has spun the HRR thing.
That was just an example. The two sides also need to agree on Free Agency, arbitration, etc. I'm hopeful that there's some traction, but it could well be that the owners offered to pay part of "Make Whole" in exchange for concessions elsewhere.

Also, I don't think this is anywhere near "last ditch" yet. They've already blown up the Winter Classic. During the last lockout, the season wasn't officially cancelled until February.

I'm hopeful that the two sides will engage in meaningful discussions over the next several days, but I'm not holding my breath.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:36 PM
  #83
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What is this make whole stuff?

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11-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I'm pro-NHL at this stage, but they haven't made a single concession if you compare with the CBA that just expired...at some point, they will have to in order to get an agreement done. Just like in 2005 when they gave players much lower UFA age.

If you compare their recent offers to their insulting offer of July, then yeah, there have been tons of concessions.
I disagree. Compare it to the other sports leagues. It's all about perspective. Why is everyone caught up in that offer that was months ago?

50/50: better than MLB and NFL, equal to NBA.
Make whole: pays out face value, when face value is not legally binding.
Absorb make whole: removes most (66%) of 13% from player's share.
Revenue sharing: $200M > NBA $180M

Players take back a year or two on the FA stuff, deal done.

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11-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #85
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I bet this make whole "concession" is only if the PA accepts everything else that the NHL wants. Good luck with that. The NHL is just playing a PR game by making everything about make whole, while all the sheep forget about the fact that the NHLPA is getting ***** in every other aspect of the deal.

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11-02-2012, 06:38 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
What is this make whole stuff?
Taking on more salary and protecting players for salary reductions. Basically it's a version of what the players have been whining about for the last month. Anyone who can say otherwise is flat out BSing. I'm not pro owner or pro player really but it is very clear the owners are at least TRYING to come up with ways to satisfy the players.

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11-02-2012, 06:40 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
The NHL's verbal offer to absorb some or all of Make Whole was made Tuesday. 3 days ago?? PA wants more detail before getting too excited.

Woah?
Great news for the PA and they wait 3 days to talk more about it.

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11-02-2012, 06:40 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by shakes View Post
I bet this make whole "concession" is only if the PA accepts everything else that the NHL wants. Good luck with that. The NHL is just playing a PR game by making everything about make whole, while all the sheep forget about the fact that the NHLPA is getting ***** in every other aspect of the deal.
Killing half of your employers by sucking away at their revenues with overpriced costs is what is screwing up the league. But of course, the PA doesn't worry about the past CBA unless you're talking about how much it hurt their egos.

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11-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by shakes View Post
I bet this make whole "concession" is only if the PA accepts everything else that the NHL wants. Good luck with that. The NHL is just playing a PR game by making everything about make whole, while all the sheep forget about the fact that the NHLPA is getting ***** in every other aspect of the deal.
Not every aspect, but if the owners keep coming up with big ways to satisfy the players and make things work for them, the players are going to have to start giving in on some other things and pleasing the owners. At the end of they day they are their employers and bosses and they need to do things that make sense for the health of the game. A perfect example is the owners wanting to max contracts at 6 years, the players would want 9 or 10, so settling in the middle would be 7 or 8 years. That is exactly how this negotiation is going to go from here on out.

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11-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #90
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this is too suspicious for me to think it's anything the union will actually take serious.

We get this information the same day the classic is cancelled.

Either the NHL was saying see, we would cancel the WC, so take our new offer, or they are just trying to win the public over even more.

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11-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
What is this make whole stuff?
Read my post #73. Basically the NHL would 'borrow' money from the players to make everything fit under the 50/50 cap, and would pay it back in regular installments over the life of the player's contract. That payment would count against the cap (like all salary) but it was incorrectly spun to be 'players paying players'.

Now the league is offering to absorb 66% of the deferment costs instead of having it count against the player's share.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:41 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Spezza19 View Post
Taking on more salary and protecting players for salary reductions. Basically it's a version of what the players have been whining about for the last month. Anyone who can say otherwise is flat out BSing. I'm not pro owner or pro player really but it is very clear the owners are at least TRYING to come up with ways to satisfy the players.
So the NHL is giving a concession whilst the NHLPA gives nothing?

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11-02-2012, 06:42 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Teams won't go for it due to travel.
I think that it would be wise to eliminate the inter-conference games if there is a season this year.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:43 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Great news for the PA and they wait 3 days to talk more about it.
Honestly, it takes time for a major development to reach 700 players. Everyone would have be in on that so that that the Fehrs can know if they can go forward with it. Steve Fehr has likely been going back to Daly by phone or e-mail with reaction from the players AS IT COMES and it's clearly leading them back to formal meetings/negotiations.

Just wait and watch it play out.

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11-02-2012, 06:44 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
So the NHL is giving a concession whilst the NHLPA gives nothing?
No no, the NHLPA will end giving plenty in other areas. Give and take......

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:45 PM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes View Post
I bet this make whole "concession" is only if the PA accepts everything else that the NHL wants. Good luck with that. The NHL is just playing a PR game by making everything about make whole, while all the sheep forget about the fact that the NHLPA is getting ***** in every other aspect of the deal.
What's surprising is how it ended up on the TSN cover page ahead of the Winter Classic cancellation. That's despite the fact TSN is aware that the Players have already laughed off the Make Whole and any possible changes to the Make Whole... It's not going to get this lockout any closer to a settlement. What's the purpose?

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11-02-2012, 06:46 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger
The NHL's verbal offer to absorb some or all of Make Whole was made Tuesday. 3 days ago?? PA wants more detail before getting too excited.

Woah?
Add to that the fact that they knew that the NHL would have to cancel the winter classic by Friday and I guess we can now also blame the loss of the winter classic on fear and the PA

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:47 PM
  #98
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Renaud P Lavoie ‏@RenLavoieRDS
NHLPA don't have the details of the NHL concessions on the make whole provision

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11-02-2012, 06:47 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
So the NHL is giving a concession whilst the NHLPA gives nothing?
Well to be fair they will be taking a paycut as their contracts run out. New UFA's will get lower contracts because there will be less cap space.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:48 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shakes View Post
I bet this make whole "concession" is only if the PA accepts everything else that the NHL wants. Good luck with that. The NHL is just playing a PR game by making everything about make whole, while all the sheep forget about the fact that the NHLPA is getting ***** in every other aspect of the deal.
Yes the NHL has made such a horrible life for these NHLers. The highest paid professional hockey league, best hotels, trainers, gyms and equipment. Man these players are getting screwed over. On top of that, they only on average make 2.5 million a year. What a tough life. Wish i could be this hard done by.

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