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2012-2013 Anaheim Ducks Prospect Update

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Old
10-30-2012, 03:18 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by heksagon View Post
Vatanen was never a PPG player in Sm-Liiga and now he is over PPG in the AHL, so I find that argument to be odd. While AHL game is more high paced, it is less "intelligent" from what I've seen. I'd say they are about equal.
Vatanen has only played 6 games in the AHL. It's a little early to be trying to make an argument out of his production. Not only that, but you should consider the players he's got with him. Vatanen isn't exactly doing it all on his own.

Having seen both the Finnish games, and the AHL, I'd have a hard time calling it "less intelligent."

Edit: And furthermore, there is more to this than points. Points don't make a defenseman. Not even someone like Karlsson can be truly defined by his offense.

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10-30-2012, 03:36 PM
  #52
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And that was the purpose of my argument. Gotta learn to be as eloquent as Soujorn

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10-30-2012, 03:52 PM
  #53
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All good points.

With "less intelligent", I meant that the game isn't as much based on tactics as in Sm-Liiga.

And Vatanen himself said in a Finnish interview that the level of the game in AHL doesn't seem particularly better than in Sm-Liiga, thats why I said they're about equal. I trust his own word in this situation. And I'm definitely not bashing AHL, it's a really good league right now, I'm just saying it's not much better.

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10-30-2012, 03:55 PM
  #54
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The game is different in FEL and AHL. Different traits are of different value between the leagues. That makes me think that Vatanen should play a season or two in the AHL to get accustomed to the North American game. We should also remember when looking at his point production that he is more or less leeching off of the forwards. Also he has two goals and they are both from the power play as are almost all of his points.

That said, Vatanen has always started slow and gotten better as the season goes on. We can still hope that he has something there yet to come.

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10-30-2012, 04:48 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heksagon View Post
Vatanen was never a PPG player in Sm-Liiga and now he is over PPG in the AHL, so I find that argument to be odd. While AHL game is more high paced, it is less "intelligent" from what I've seen. I'd say they are about equal.
The Sm-Liga is better, they're not equal. Gabriel Desjardins (the guy who runs behindthenet.ca) did a league equivalency rating and the AHL was behind the KHL, Czech League, SEL & SM-Liga and was just above the Swiss league. For a lockout year, where the European leagues get top proven NHL talents where as the AHL gets top NHL prospects I'd say it gives the European leagues even more of an advantage.

Anyways, each player will have perform differently in different league styles but on average, the KHL/Czech/Finnish/Swedish leagues are played at a higher level than the AHL.

Personally I find the AHL by far the most entertaining to watch (and I find the KHL the least entertaining, from what I've seen) but that certainly doesn't mean it's a higher level of hockey than the European leagues.

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Old
10-30-2012, 06:36 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul4587 View Post
The Sm-Liga is better, they're not equal. Gabriel Desjardins (the guy who runs behindthenet.ca) did a league equivalency rating and the AHL was behind the KHL, Czech League, SEL & SM-Liga and was just above the Swiss league. For a lockout year, where the European leagues get top proven NHL talents where as the AHL gets top NHL prospects I'd say it gives the European leagues even more of an advantage.

Anyways, each player will have perform differently in different league styles but on average, the KHL/Czech/Finnish/Swedish leagues are played at a higher level than the AHL.

Personally I find the AHL by far the most entertaining to watch (and I find the KHL the least entertaining, from what I've seen) but that certainly doesn't mean it's a higher level of hockey than the European leagues.
While I don't have the knowledge to participate in the discussion of which league is best, using advanced statistic guy as a source is.....questionable. His methodology consists of comparing the PPG in the feeder league with the PPG of the same player who played 40 games in the NHL the next year. There is no apparent correction for age, system played, quality of team played for, quality of the players themselves (are we talking 10 point grinders or 50 point top 6?), minutes played or anything else. That may be all the data there is to evaluate but it doesn't make it good math. The fact that the IHL players score the same as the AHL players despite playing inferior competition bears this out. Just my 2 cents.

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10-30-2012, 06:45 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
While I don't have the knowledge to participate in the discussion of which league is best, using advanced statistic guy as a source is.....questionable. His methodology consists of comparing the PPG in the feeder league with the PPG of the same player who played 40 games in the NHL the next year. There is no apparent correction for age, system played, quality of team played for, quality of the players themselves (are we talking 10 point grinders or 50 point top 6?), minutes played or anything else. That may be all the data there is to evaluate but it doesn't make it good math. The fact that the IHL players score the same as the AHL players despite playing inferior competition bears this out. Just my 2 cents.
I was about to mention my reservations about the formulas (which I had not really taken a closer look into, thanks for clearing that up...) given those results. Particularly the Czech league being superior to the Swiss NLA seemed odd to me, but I have to admit my experience with those leagues isn't really big enough to put too much stock into my own subjective feeling.

Anyway, I'd say that SEL and KHL are better than the AHL, while NLA and FEL are at a similar level. As of recent developments, I think the DEL could be put in that category, as well, while playing the most North-American style of the European leagues.

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10-30-2012, 07:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
While I don't have the knowledge to participate in the discussion of which league is best, using advanced statistic guy as a source is.....questionable. His methodology consists of comparing the PPG in the feeder league with the PPG of the same player who played 40 games in the NHL the next year. There is no apparent correction for age, system played, quality of team played for, quality of the players themselves (are we talking 10 point grinders or 50 point top 6?), minutes played or anything else. That may be all the data there is to evaluate but it doesn't make it good math. The fact that the IHL players score the same as the AHL players despite playing inferior competition bears this out. Just my 2 cents.
Age is a good one, since guys coming out of Europe are probably older than guys coming out of the other leagues. But other than that, most of the things you list should balance out as long as the sample size is big enough. Maybe style/quality of player if you really want to get into it, because they might not bother to bring grinders over from Europe as much.

But in the end it's the same as earlier arguments about prospects. Some people believe in statistical approaches and some don't.

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10-30-2012, 09:10 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by snarktacular View Post
Age is a good one, since guys coming out of Europe are probably older than guys coming out of the other leagues. But other than that, most of the things you list should balance out as long as the sample size is big enough. Maybe style/quality of player if you really want to get into it, because they might not bother to bring grinders over from Europe as much.

But in the end it's the same as earlier arguments about prospects. Some people believe in statistical approaches and some don't.
Agreed about the laws of averages, but the numbers aren't high enough to do that IMO. 473 AHL players is a good start. 129 IHL not as much. Then 93 NCAA, 75 SM-Liiga, 72 Swedish Elite League, 47 Russian Elite League, 35 Czech Republic League, 28 Switzerland National League, 19 Deutsche Eishockey League. Those numbers don't strike me as large enough to balance all those issues out.

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10-31-2012, 02:21 AM
  #60
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Maybe I should make clear that I was comparing the Sm-Liiga Vatanen played in last year to the AHL he plays in now. If we compare the leagues right now, Sm-Liiga is pretty obviously better with lots of NHL players like Erik Karlsson, Mikko Koivu, Valtteri Filppula etc. But that wouldn't make sense because Vatanen didn't play against that caliber guys when he was in Sm-Liiga.

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10-31-2012, 01:16 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Agreed about the laws of averages, but the numbers aren't high enough to do that IMO. 473 AHL players is a good start. 129 IHL not as much. Then 93 NCAA, 75 SM-Liiga, 72 Swedish Elite League, 47 Russian Elite League, 35 Czech Republic League, 28 Switzerland National League, 19 Deutsche Eishockey League. Those numbers don't strike me as large enough to balance all those issues out.
Didn't pay attention to the n before, but yeah you're right. I would be a little worried about anything < 100. Preferably in the 300 range.

An update would be nice. There's been another like 6 or 7 years since (I think this was done around the 2005 lockout).

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10-31-2012, 01:56 PM
  #62
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Cool Andrew O'Brien goal. Awesome reaction.

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10-31-2012, 05:23 PM
  #63
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Cool Andrew O'Brien goal. Awesome reaction.
Wow, impressive. O'Brien is looking good this season, throwing his body around a lot, and getting on the score sheet too. Looks like that bottom-four defenseman who can compliment a speedy, offensive guy.

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10-31-2012, 05:25 PM
  #64
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Wow, impressive. O'Brien is looking good this season, throwing his body around a lot, and getting on the score sheet too. Looks like that bottom-four defenseman who can compliment a speedy, offensive guy.
No kidding. I have yet to see a night where he didn't have more hits than every other player on the ice that night.


Last edited by Exit Dose: 10-31-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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10-31-2012, 05:49 PM
  #65
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He have a Vatanen in him

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Old
10-31-2012, 05:58 PM
  #66
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Nice goal. Our blueline really looks like it will improve significantly in mobility with all these prospects.

I find it amusing how there's all this French. Then all of a sudden a completely not-French sounding "Andrew O'Brien."

Although I do have to say that that kind of defensive play is exactly why I generally worry about translating offensive stats from the Q.

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10-31-2012, 07:09 PM
  #67
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The difference between the AHL and the top Europen leagues is basically depth. But that's because the AHL is a development league, where the majority of players are projects. And those who doesn't make the NHL will be replaced with new projects after a while.

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10-31-2012, 11:14 PM
  #68
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No kidding. I have yet to see a night where he didn't have more hits than every other player on the ice that night.
Oh yeah. When I was covering him earlier in the year for my DucksProspects Twitter, he had something like 8 hits one night (which I thought was phenomenal), and then on the second game of a B2B had 13 hits.

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11-01-2012, 08:04 PM
  #69
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Is Sebastian Erixon still affiliated with the Ducks? Or did they let him go?

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11-01-2012, 08:51 PM
  #70
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Is Sebastian Erixon still affiliated with the Ducks? Or did they let him go?
As far as I remember, they released him from his contract.

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11-02-2012, 10:25 PM
  #71
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O'Brien and Rakell finish the night with assists.

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11-02-2012, 10:26 PM
  #72
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Roy with a goal and an assist in a 2-5 loss.

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11-02-2012, 10:41 PM
  #73
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Roy with a goal and an assist in a 2-5 loss.

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Old
11-03-2012, 08:52 AM
  #74
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Roy with a goal and an assist in a 2-5 loss.
Roy asisted on Ludwig Karlsson goal

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:00 AM
  #75
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Prospect update (removed Erixon):


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