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Old
11-02-2012, 11:49 AM
  #76
hockeyfanz
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Originally Posted by ForSpareParts View Post
To Buffalo
Fuhr
5th round pick in the '95 draft

To Toronto
Andreychuck
Puppa
1st round pick in the '95 draft
This is top 3 IMO as well as the trades that brought Gilmour to Toronto and the one that brought Sundin to Toronto. Top 3 in my lifetime.

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11-02-2012, 11:58 AM
  #77
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This is top 3 IMO as well as the trades that brought Gilmour to Toronto and the one that brought Sundin to Toronto. Top 3 in my lifetime.
In 1980, the Canucks traded Rick Vaive, along with Bill Derlago, to the Toronto Maple Leafs in exchange for Dave "Tiger" Williams and Jerry Butler.

Vaive went on to captain the Leafs and record 3 straight 50+ goal seasons, something no other Leaf throughout history has accomplished.

I think that trade >> Andreychuk/Puppa one. IMO

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11-02-2012, 12:02 PM
  #78
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In 1980, the Canucks traded Rick Vaive, along with Bill Derlago, to the Toronto Maple Leafs in exchange for Dave "Tiger" Williams and Jerry Butler.

Vaive went on to captain the Leafs and record 3 straight 50+ goal seasons, something no other Leaf throughout history has accomplished.

I think that trade >> Andreychuk/Puppa one. IMO
I dont think Vaive garners much respect in this town but really comparing those two trades....Vaive and Derlago really didn't make the Leafs a good team although I agree Vaive was a great goal scorer. Andreychuk very nearly put the Leafs over the top. He was very good while he played here and the Leafs were a top notch team. Vaive was good like Kessel is good...but neither guy really made that much impact on the overall success of the team.

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11-02-2012, 12:09 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kadri was less than spectacular and Connelly/Lambo were.....that is my point. No need to pay Connelly the money they did as they should have given a young prospect the ice time...aid in the players development.

Can you not get that Franson was mishandled.....he was used as the 7th D-man and he was not the 7th d-man. You make a trade for a young player and then you proceed to devalue him as well as to take away his confidence.....like I stated poor asset management....that was my point and still is.

The Komi signing was a mistake at the amount of money that they paid him.....that was my point and still is and yet you only state that he got fair market value....someone else should have been paying him the 4.5 million that Burke paid him. Over paid and a mistake as he has a NMC so we could not bury him like we did with Finger.....we could not trade him as no one would take on that contract.

Liles signing no matter how you spin it was more than fair market value and not at all a good decision in my opinion. He was still out of the line up with a concussion when he was extended.

If we continue to sign players who are not going to be part of turning the team around and take up roster spots, just how are we going to improve. Liles is a soft D man who is not part of the solution and he needs to be replaced if we are to improve....

Your claim that Aulie's development was stalled is funny. He played 40 games the year before and was only a minus 1 playing against the opponents top players and you state his develop stalled...it does not past the sniff test.

As for why Aulie was traded.....pm sent/
The Liles contract at 4 years at 3.875 per year is a good contract.

Everybody is getting to hung up on the concussion factor with Liles. Fact is the majority of players in the league have a concussion history. The concussion that knocked out Liles for 16 games although a health concern wasn't a major concussion that should hinder him going forward. Now if he suffers another 1 or 2 then it's a different story but the same can be said about most players in the league.

Before criticizing the Liles contract look at some comparables for 2nd pairing dmen who are recognized as top power play options.

Kaberle
Souray
Ehrhoff

Liles also might be a bit soft but not every player is going to be tough. Far to often I'm seeing Leaf fans get to hung up on us being soft when I still believe the biggest issue is us not being skilled enough in key areas. Liles replacing Kaberle was a huge part of our powerplay success last year which helped us win games.


Last edited by Ricky Bobby: 11-02-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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11-02-2012, 12:12 PM
  #80
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I dont think Vaive garners much respect in this town but really comparing those two trades....Vaive and Derlago really didn't make the Leafs a good team although I agree Vaive was a great goal scorer. Andreychuk very nearly put the Leafs over the top. He was very good while he played here and the Leafs were a top notch team. Vaive was good like Kessel is good...but neither guy really made that much impact on the overall success of the team.
How much success would Andreychuk have had without Dougie is the key here?.

Gilmour could elevate himself and his teammates to new levels. If Andreychuk had Derlago and Vaive had Gilmour as their centers and situations reversed I think you would have a different prospective.

That said, I agree in principle with the point that Vaive much like Kessel today was more about empty personal points, in otherwise meaningless Leaf seasons of failure. Vaive however was big and physical and rack up 120+ pims in addition to 50+ goals. Neither player elevated their team by their play to greater success.

But as far as trades go, a washed up Tiger Williams and utility forward Jerry Butler for a 3 time 50 goal scorer is still a good trade on the surface.

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11-02-2012, 12:25 PM
  #81
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Mostly all of Burke's trades except for the Kessel deal have been favorable for us.

Giguerre for Blake + Toskala

Versteeg for 1st + 3rd (which he ended up getting flipped from philly for a 2nd)

Beauchemin for Lupul + Gardiner

JVR for Schenn

Steckel for a 7th rd pick (best f/o and pk guy last year)

Phaneuf + Aulie for stajan +Sjostrom+ Mayers + White

27games of Kaberle for Colborne + 1st + 2nd

2nd for Liles

Lebda for Franson + Lombardi

Grabovski for 2nd rd pick

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11-02-2012, 12:27 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kadri was less than spectacular and Connelly/Lambo were.....that is my point. No need to pay Connelly the money they did as they should have given a young prospect the ice time...aid in the players development.
Giving a prospect ice time that he has not earned does not aid in a player's development, nor does pushing him into a 1st-line Toronto role that Connolly was pegged for.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Can you not get that Franson was mishandled.....he was used as the 7th D-man and he was not the 7th d-man. You make a trade for a young player and then you proceed to devalue him as well as to take away his confidence.....like I stated poor asset management....that was my point and still is.
How many times do I have to say it? Franson was not our 7th defenseman.

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The Komi signing was a mistake at the amount of money that they paid him.....that was my point and still is and yet you only state that he got fair market value....someone else should have been paying him the 4.5 million that Burke paid him. Over paid and a mistake as he has a NMC so we could not bury him like we did with Finger.....we could not trade him as no one would take on that contract.
It was a bad result. If Komisarek had played like he did before coming to Toronto, it would have been a good signing. Either way, he was signed for market value.

NMC or not, he would not be buried. Even now, he is NHL caliber. Nothing like Finger. He is just not 4.5 million caliber.

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Liles signing no matter how you spin it was more than fair market value and not at all a good decision in my opinion. He was still out of the line up with a concussion when he was extended.
It's not spin. It is facts. Quotes and league average for a player like him support this.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
If we continue to sign players who are not going to be part of turning the team around and take up roster spots, just how are we going to improve. Liles is a soft D man who is not part of the solution and he needs to be replaced if we are to improve....
Liles is not soft, and was an important part of this team for the first half of the year. One of the most important. He also brings valuable leadership and experience to a young squad. Liles is better than any alternative we have right now.

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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Your claim that Aulie's development was stalled is funny. He played 40 games the year before and was only a minus 1 playing against the opponents top players and you state his develop stalled...it does not past the sniff test.
THE YEAR BEFORE. And then his development stalled, and he wasn't even playing well in the AHL.

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As for why Aulie was traded.....pm sent/
And no facts or supporting evidence given.

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11-02-2012, 03:33 PM
  #83
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I believe it was just Pateryn. Knight was part of the Kessel trade
The trade was Greg Pateryn and TOR 2nd 2010 for Mikhail Grabovski.

That pick eventually turned into Jared Knight, as part of the Kessel trade, however, it had it's own little journey before coming back to Toronto.

Montreal traded the pick to Chicago for Robert Lang. When Burke then wanted to hold the necessary pieces to threaten an offer sheet on Kessel, he traded the TOR 3rd 2010 and CGY 2nd 2010 to Chicago.

The pick was then packaged with the TOR 1st 2010 and TOR 1st 2011 for the rights to Phil Kessel, who we then promptly signed.

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11-02-2012, 03:48 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Mostly all of Burke's trades except for the Kessel deal have been favorable for us.

Giguerre for Blake + Toskala

Versteeg for 1st + 3rd (which he ended up getting flipped from philly for a 2nd)

Beauchemin for Lupul + Gardiner

JVR for Schenn

Steckel for a 7th rd pick (best f/o and pk guy last year)

Phaneuf + Aulie for stajan +Sjostrom+ Mayers + White

27games of Kaberle for Colborne + 1st + 2nd

2nd for Liles

Lebda for Franson + Lombardi

Grabovski for 2nd rd pick
Trading Pavel Kubina for scraps was dumb. He was the Leafs best dman the year before.

Trading Kessel for two high picks was not wise. Not wise in thinking your team would finish middle of the pack.

Trading a second round pick used to draft Ross is still up in the air -- Jimmy Hayes is a 6'5" NHL'er. Not like the Leafs need size.

Trading Tlustly for Paradis was dumb.

Trading Stalberg, + for Versteeg is questionable.

Trading a pick for Olden was a bust.

Anton Stralman for a second rounder wasn't great.

2011 3rd and 2011 2nd for 2010 second so he could offer sheet Kessel. Which he didn't do was dumb.

Aulie for Aston I don't like.

Fletcher made the Grabo deal.

But yes MOST of his deals have been good -- not ALL.


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11-02-2012, 03:49 PM
  #85
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Gilmour and co for Leeman and co. End thread.

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11-02-2012, 03:58 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Mostly all of Burke's trades except for the Kessel deal have been favorable for us.

Giguerre for Blake + Toskala

Versteeg for 1st + 3rd (which he ended up getting flipped from philly for a 2nd)

Beauchemin for Lupul + Gardiner

JVR for Schenn

Steckel for a 7th rd pick (best f/o and pk guy last year)

Phaneuf + Aulie for stajan +Sjostrom+ Mayers + White

27games of Kaberle for Colborne + 1st + 2nd

2nd for Liles

Lebda for Franson + Lombardi

Grabovski for 2nd rd pick
1) Versteeg cost us a lot to acquire him, I wouldn't count the benefit unless you count the cost.

Toronto gave up Chris DiDomenico, Viktor Stalberg and Phillippe Paradis to acquire Versteeg. It's early still for DiDomenico and Paradis, but Stalberg was really good last season and would've been #1 on the Leafs in G/ToI.

In exchange for Versteeg, the Leafs got PHI 1st 2011 and PHI 3rd 2011, which we used to draft Stuart Percy and Josh Leivo. There was no flipping of the picks for a 2nd either.

2) Steckel was acquired in exchange for TOR 4th 2012, which the Devils used to draft LW Ben Thomson. So not a 7th rounder.

3) Phaneuf came with Sjostrom and Aulie, and we sent Stajan, Hagman, Mayers and White. Not that the difference is really all that important, but it is worth being accurate if for no other reason than posterity.

4) Brett Lebda took Robert Slaney along with him when exchanged for Franson and Lombardi. Slaney was later dealt to Montreal with Blake Geoffrion for Hal Gill and a 5th round pick.

Slaney is garbage, just like Lebda, but I see no reason why we can't include both garbage piles in the trade.


FWIW, the Lebda and Slaney trade should be one of the best by the Leafs organization considering the inferior value of the players we sent for the value of the players we acquired. Franson and Lombardi both logged NHL minutes for use last season, much more than can be said of Lebda or Slaney.

5) Grabovski was acquired under Cliff Fletcher.

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11-02-2012, 05:00 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Kadri was less than spectacular and Connelly/Lambo were.....that is my point. No need to pay Connelly the money they did as they should have given a young prospect the ice time...aid in the players development.

Can you not get that Franson was mishandled.....he was used as the 7th D-man and he was not the 7th d-man. You make a trade for a young player and then you proceed to devalue him as well as to take away his confidence.....like I stated poor asset management....that was my point and still is.

The Komi signing was a mistake at the amount of money that they paid him.....that was my point and still is and yet you only state that he got fair market value....someone else should have been paying him the 4.5 million that Burke paid him. Over paid and a mistake as he has a NMC so we could not bury him like we did with Finger.....we could not trade him as no one would take on that contract.

Liles signing no matter how you spin it was more than fair market value and not at all a good decision in my opinion. He was still out of the line up with a concussion when he was extended.

If we continue to sign players who are not going to be part of turning the team around and take up roster spots, just how are we going to improve. Liles is a soft D man who is not part of the solution and he needs to be replaced if we are to improve....

Your claim that Aulie's development was stalled is funny. He played 40 games the year before and was only a minus 1 playing against the opponents top players and you state his develop stalled...it does not past the sniff test.

As for why Aulie was traded.....pm sent/
Not sure why you fail to see that Kadri is ready for the NHL. If you force him to play the minutes and he's not ready, that's going to ruin him and that would be poor asset
management.

I think you'd be surprised the teams that would take Komisarek's contract. He got market value and it isn't a mistake. With a new system, you'll see his value rise and people will be happy with the signing. But instead you continue to ignore he's a defensive defenseman that was in an offensive system. Changes are coming.

Again Liles fills in a hole that the team has. If he's not there, we don't have an elite puck mover. And he's one of our only left defensemen. Not sure how you missed that.

Liles is a stop gap until a prospect is ready to take his spot. Franson is a right defenseman. No one is ready to take Liles spot, so signing him to that deal was a great deal. You think he didn't get market value? Did you say Garrison's deal?? Did you see Ehrhoff's deal the other year? These guys aren't your elite players but they got plenty more then what Liles got. Garrison after only one season with Brian Campbell.

You said Aulie wasn't stalled and bring up last years stats? What about the year we are talking about when he played poorly and everyone decided that his progression stopped? He didn't play too well then.

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11-02-2012, 05:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
Mostly all of Burke's trades except for the Kessel deal have been favorable for us.

Giguerre for Blake + Toskala

Versteeg for 1st + 3rd (which he ended up getting flipped from philly for a 2nd)

Beauchemin for Lupul + Gardiner

JVR for Schenn

Steckel for a 7th rd pick (best f/o and pk guy last year)

Phaneuf + Aulie for stajan +Sjostrom+ Mayers + White

27games of Kaberle for Colborne + 1st + 2nd

2nd for Liles

Lebda for Franson + Lombardi

Grabovski for 2nd rd pick
Steckel cost us a 4th round selection in 2012.

Grabovski cost us Greg Pateryn and a 2nd round selection in 2010.

Also we gave up Slaney + Lebda + a conditional 4th round pick for Franson + Lombardi.

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11-02-2012, 05:42 PM
  #89
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How much success would Andreychuk have had without Dougie is the key here?.

Gilmour could elevate himself and his teammates to new levels. If Andreychuk had Derlago and Vaive had Gilmour as their centers and situations reversed I think you would have a different prospective.

That said, I agree in principle with the point that Vaive much like Kessel today was more about empty personal points, in otherwise meaningless Leaf seasons of failure. Vaive however was big and physical and rack up 120+ pims in addition to 50+ goals. Neither player elevated their team by their play to greater success.

But as far as trades go, a washed up Tiger Williams and utility forward Jerry Butler for a 3 time 50 goal scorer is still a good trade on the surface.
Dude although I often share your sentiment on Leafs matters....wow....you think Gilmour made Andreychuk? The guy scored over 600 goals in the NHL. I agree that his career year was with Dougie when he scored 53 goals but 29 of them were with the Sabres. I loved Gilmour but cmon....he didn't amass 127 points playing with stiffs. Dougie had some pretty good linemates in big Dave "garbage goal" Andreychuk and Wendel, who could score with a wrist shot from the top of the circle. Everybody thinks that great Burns team was all Dougie. He was definitely the catalyst but it was a pretty well built team led by a brilliant coach.

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11-02-2012, 05:48 PM
  #90
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1) Versteeg cost us a lot to acquire him, I wouldn't count the benefit unless you count the cost.

Toronto gave up Chris DiDomenico, Viktor Stalberg and Phillippe Paradis to acquire Versteeg. It's early still for DiDomenico and Paradis, but Stalberg was really good last season and would've been #1 on the Leafs in G/ToI.

In exchange for Versteeg, the Leafs got PHI 1st 2011 and PHI 3rd 2011, which we used to draft Stuart Percy and Josh Leivo. There was no flipping of the picks for a 2nd either.
.
Versteeg didn't cost us a lot to acquire and that was a very good trade for the Leafs.

Stalbergs success has more to do with playing with elite talent in Chicago than anything. In Toronto he'd just be another soft forward. Stalberg had a career high of 43 points last season at age 26.

Versteeg meanwhile is a few months younger and has scored 53, 44, 46 and 54 points in each of his last 4 seasons and he was also a very good penalty killer in Chicago. Versteeg just never meshed with the team but I'd still take the 1st and 3rd over what we gave to Chicago every day of the week.

The rest of the pieces were nothings:

DiDomenico bounced between the AHL and ECHL for a few seasons and last season played in Italy. No loss there.

Paradis could barely score in the AHL last season and is a long shot to ever make it to the NHL. Minimal chance that Paradis was any loss.

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11-02-2012, 06:02 PM
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4 pages and nobody has mentioned the McCabe trade in 2000 where he came from Chicago in exchange for Karpovtsev and a 4th rounder.

McCabe was a darn good top pairing dman for most of his time in Toronto.


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11-02-2012, 06:04 PM
  #92
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Dude although I often share your sentiment on Leafs matters....wow....you think Gilmour made Andreychuk? The guy scored over 600 goals in the NHL. I agree that his career year was with Dougie when he scored 53 goals but 29 of them were with the Sabres. I loved Gilmour but cmon....he didn't amass 127 points playing with stiffs. Dougie had some pretty good linemates in big Dave "garbage goal" Andreychuk and Wendel, who could score with a wrist shot from the top of the circle. Everybody thinks that great Burns team was all Dougie. He was definitely the catalyst but it was a pretty well built team led by a brilliant coach.
Gilmour didn't make Andreychuk, but he made him better and helped him put up career highs.

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11-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #93
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Dude although I often share your sentiment on Leafs matters....wow....you think Gilmour made Andreychuk? The guy scored over 600 goals in the NHL. I agree that his career year was with Dougie when he scored 53 goals but 29 of them were with the Sabres. I loved Gilmour but cmon....he didn't amass 127 points playing with stiffs. Dougie had some pretty good linemates in big Dave "garbage goal" Andreychuk and Wendel, who could score with a wrist shot from the top of the circle. Everybody thinks that great Burns team was all Dougie. He was definitely the catalyst but it was a pretty well built team led by a brilliant coach.
Gilmour made every body better that he played with during his time with the Leafs. But in no way, shape or form, did he completely carry that team. They had a ton of depth.

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11-02-2012, 06:21 PM
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Gilmour didn't make Andreychuk, but he made him better and helped him put up career highs.
Not really...look at Andreychuk's career..outside of the one year where he scored 53.....and 29 goals came from playing with Buffalo in the year he was traded to Toronto.....Andreychuk only scored 42 in 109 games before being shipped off to the Devils. He was consistent througout his career and had a number of 30 goal seasons with the Buffalos and a couple of 40+. That one year 92-93....Gilmour was out of his mind......probably the best single season by a Leaf player in my lifetime.The next year he was pretty amazing as well 111 points... But beyond those years Dougie was good...not special.

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11-02-2012, 07:37 PM
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Ok......I disagree a whole lot.

All of Burkes Free agent signings have been horrible......Why not Bring up Kadri over Signing Connelly? Stop gap....stop development is more like it. When you sign players like Connelly it serves no purpose other than to take up a roster spot for two years there by preventing younger players a development opportunity.

Lombo did come with Franson and Burke thinks so much of this young player that he failed to sign him....he was mishandle and is not happy as a Leaf.

Komi @ 4.5 million a year is not a mistake? Wow!

We are still paying Armstrong not to play for us, same as Tucker!
Well first off, Burke doesn't make all the signings alone, its all of management.

Kadri over Connolly? You mean a 170lb young C who couldn't play defensive hockey at all? That wouldn't go too well, we're letting him develop and he's arguably still not ready. Connolly was used as a stop gap aka a plug in the lineup until we get someone better or one of Kadri or Colborne were ready for the NHL. The younger players developed in the AHL with Eakins and that long, and very valuable playoff experience which is why Gardiner was sent down too, for the experience and chance to develop.

Franson is a restricted free agent, he wants to play in the NHL, we own his rights, Burke didn't fail to sign him. Nope, Komisarek at 4.5M is not a mistake, at the time Leaf fans were going crazy, he just came off an all star season and was the best UFA defenseman available. We're still paying Armstrong, um duh, would you rather him play 20 games a season for us for 3M or open up that spot for a Marlie, like you were whining about for 1M? Darcy Tucker was bought out by Cliff Fletcher, not Burke so bringing that up was kinda dumb.

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11-02-2012, 07:43 PM
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It is no wonder we finish where we do. Kadri was ready and is an upgrade over Connelly. The fact that Wilson did not like him should never had been part of the equation.

Komi got way more than market value, he also got a NMC as well. I do not mind Komi but at 4.5 it is a joke.

Franson is a RFA but he is not signed for this year and is the only roster player who is not.

I would also like to throw in the resigning of Liles to a new 4 year deal...again not at all a great signing with his NTC (modified) . Poor asset management is a huge issue with Burke. Kadri, Franson, Aulie are prime examples.
Kadri was not ready, he still isn't ready.

Komi's market-value after an all star season? How much would you pay him and expect him to sign 850k? 4.5M at the time was not a joke.

Franson is an RFA, sure, so what? There's no NHL season, what difference does it make?

The re-signing of Liles was a bad signing? You mean our best player in the fist 30 something games of the season? Oh, that Liles! Yeah, smarten up buddy, look at how much Matt Carle got as a UFA, Liles would have got similar digits on a shorter term, he took a big pay cut to stay here, and he was rewarded with the NTC, poor asset management? Aulie was horrible before we traded him, Kadri is developing, Franson was benched by Wilson, not Burke.

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11-02-2012, 09:50 PM
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Kadri was not ready, he still isn't ready.

Komi's market-value after an all star season? How much would you pay him and expect him to sign 850k? 4.5M at the time was not a joke.

Franson is an RFA, sure, so what? There's no NHL season, what difference does it make?

The re-signing of Liles was a bad signing? You mean our best player in the fist 30 something games of the season? Oh, that Liles! Yeah, smarten up buddy, look at how much Matt Carle got as a UFA, Liles would have got similar digits on a shorter term, he took a big pay cut to stay here, and he was rewarded with the NTC, poor asset management? Aulie was horrible before we traded him, Kadri is developing, Franson was benched by Wilson, not Burke.
Liles took no pay cut at all.....please provide a link....that shows this.

Komi is over paid....or do you feel that we are getting value for money?

Aulie was horrible.....when?

Kadri over Lambo and Connelly....in a heart beat.

You are right Franson was benched by Wilson....but Burke allowed this asset to be devalued by his coach.

I never whine by the way, I leave that to others

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11-02-2012, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Liles took no pay cut at all.....please provide a link....that shows this.

Komi is over paid....or do you feel that we are getting value for money?

Aulie was horrible.....when?

Kadri over Lambo and Connelly....in a heart beat.

You are right Franson was benched by Wilson....but Burke allowed this asset to be devalued by his coach.

I never whine by the way, I leave that to others
On the open market he makes more. Everyone knows this.

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11-02-2012, 10:56 PM
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Phaneuf and Lupul trades were equally awesome.

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11-02-2012, 11:08 PM
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diceman934
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On the open market he makes more. Everyone knows this.
Everyone knows that a concussed player who also got a Limited NTC and signed for 3.875 million is under paid......

I dislike the extension.

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