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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-03-2012, 05:25 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I expect some kind of spin. Fehr "This is a great start", 2 days later PA replies with another delinked proposal and no changes to contracts.
That would be pretty stupid of him considering he said that of the owners' last proposal. Would he really think we are that stupid? I would think this is more than a great start. This should be a thing that could get to a tipping point and get the PA and the NHL to be locked in a room and not come out until a deal is done, which is a bit hyperbole but the whole nonchalance of this lockout by both sides has been quite troubling.

To me this concession by the owners either is a catalyst to get a deal done or could make this thing go nuclear. The ball right now is in the players' court. Hopefully both sides start getting serious.

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Old
11-03-2012, 06:59 AM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
If its true that owners shifted the make whole part of their proposal to owners side, and such are honouring the players contracts, then this lockout should end. Because it takes the only remaining excuse the players have left.
While this is good news I promise you that there is lots more that the PA will complain about.

ELC
UFA qualifying age
Arbitration rights
The softness of the TP in the dressing rooms.
etc

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Old
11-03-2012, 07:06 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I'm sure Fehr is perfectly capable of coming up with some new excuse for the players.
Without more details Fehr doesn't need an excuse. I felt and posted for a long time that the core issue was not the % of HRR. Yes it needed to be addressed but Bettman was really after the ability to control player movement and future player costs with the changes the proposed CBA had with restrictions to ELC, Arbitration, contract length, RFA and UFA matters.

Fehr is a very experienced union negotiator. I doubt he missed the potential to seriously restrict players rights and their furture oppotunities.

I think if you look at the CBA negotiation issue from the perspective of protecting players rights and their long term futures in negotiating contracts with the respective NHL clubs everything that has happened makes a little more sense.

Lastly, I also believe that Fehr has made it clear to the NHLPA that no matter what the owners offer now, unless the NHLPA shows a willingness NOT to buckle to the owners on substanative issues around players rights that they will be back giving more up during the next round of negotiations.

He has rightly pointed out that the owners got what they wanted the last time and they are now back at the table attempting to bully the NHLPA into accepting terms that would restrict players rights in the same way that the MLB operated before the Curt Flood decision.

Just MHO

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11-03-2012, 07:16 AM
  #304
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Habs,

You are right. Fehr will raise the ELC, Arb, free agency issues. Those I believe were the real critical ones around getting a new CBA. If you analyze the proposals made by Bettman around those issues ELC contracts originally lasting 5 years, getting rid of arbitration, free agency after 10 yrs. in the NHL etc. you will see and should conclude that it was intended to take the NHL back to the times when a player was drafted he remained the property of the team that drafted him. He either signed with them or he didn;t play in the NHL. With the most recent average length of of a career being LESS than 10 yrs. the fact is the NHL intended to prevent players, perhaps with the exception of the top players, from ever receiveing a market value for their services.

Just my opinion but I'll be surprised to see a CBA signed that restricts the future player movement rights the way the NHL wanted to.

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11-03-2012, 07:18 AM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Without more details Fehr doesn't need an excuse. I felt and posted for a long time that the core issue was not the % of HRR. Yes it needed to be addressed but Bettman was really after the ability to control player movement and future player costs with the changes the proposed CBA had with restrictions to ELC, Arbitration, contract length, RFA and UFA matters.

Fehr is a very experienced union negotiator. I doubt he missed the potential to seriously restrict players rights and their furture oppotunities.

I think if you look at the CBA negotiation issue from the perspective of protecting players rights and their long term futures in negotiating contracts with the respective NHL clubs everything that has happened makes a little more sense.

Lastly, I also believe that Fehr has made it clear to the NHLPA that no matter what the owners offer now, unless the NHLPA shows a willingness NOT to buckle to the owners on substanative issues around players rights that they will be back giving more up during the next round of negotiations.

He has rightly pointed out that the owners got what they wanted the last time and they are now back at the table attempting to bully the NHLPA into accepting terms that would restrict players rights in the same way that the MLB operated before the Curt Flood decision.

Just MHO

Sure the owners got the cap they wanted last time but dont you agree that ended up playing to the players favor? The average salary in the NHL has almost doubled since the last lockout. Also I dont think any could predict that the revenues and costs would sky rocket like it did.

I dont think they are trying to bully the players. This is business, big business and they want a better deal. This is a negotiation like any other, its just playing out on every sports channel like a soap opera.

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11-03-2012, 07:21 AM
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
He has rightly pointed out that the owners got what they wanted the last time and they are now back at the table attempting to bully the NHLPA into accepting terms that would restrict players rights in the same way that the MLB operated before the Curt Flood decision.
And owners "getting what they wanted" caused a substantial increase in player income, even throughout a financial crisis in the country and league.

Maybe that should tell the players something.

And players rights are not being restricted at all. Contract structure is not a player right.

If this lockout is about "showing the NHL that the PA won't back down", and not actually about real issues, then Fehr and the NHLPA are shooting themselves in the foot. The longer this lockout goes on, the more likely it is that we will have these problems again in the future (and more cuts will need to be made), due to the damage and decreased revenue from this time off.

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11-03-2012, 07:23 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Habs,

You are right. Fehr will raise the ELC, Arb, free agency issues. Those I believe were the real critical ones around getting a new CBA. If you analyze the proposals made by Bettman around those issues ELC contracts originally lasting 5 years, getting rid of arbitration, free agency after 10 yrs. in the NHL etc. you will see and should conclude that it was intended to take the NHL back to the times when a player was drafted he remained the property of the team that drafted him. He either signed with them or he didn;t play in the NHL. With the most recent average length of of a career being LESS than 10 yrs. the fact is the NHL intended to prevent players, perhaps with the exception of the top players, from ever receiveing a market value for their services.

Just my opinion but I'll be surprised to see a CBA signed that restricts the future player movement rights the way the NHL wanted to.


I agree that the owners offer went too far in restricting payers rights, however. The players cant simply expect to have it all in their favor either. It costs alot of money to develop a player and just when all that work is starting to pay off for the teams cause the player is hitting his prime. He can walk to any team he wants?

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Old
11-03-2012, 07:29 AM
  #308
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
If you analyze the proposals made by Bettman around those issues ELC contracts originally lasting 5 years, getting rid of arbitration, free agency after 10 yrs.
That is not what the NHL proposed.

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Old
11-03-2012, 08:00 AM
  #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
All they have to do, collectively, is tell Fehr they'll accept the NHL's deal.

This seems rather simplistic, to say, "Hey get back to the table" when the player group isn't willing to take the Make Whole + other matters on the table. What will they negotiate? Hey, Gary, so how about the owners do a soft landing. Gary: No. We want 50% now, and the other stuff.

And if every guy is going to negotiate his own deal, they might as well decertify right now.
I am just telling you what Hnidy said he heard, that in the meeting three of the reps spoke up and said their players want to get back to the table to negotiate. I felt that information was worth posting, simplistic or not. I am not sure i understand how what I posted leads to every guy wanting to negociate his own deal but it is early in the morning and I haven't had my coffee yet so I could have missed something?


Last edited by ps241: 11-03-2012 at 08:21 AM.
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Old
11-03-2012, 08:23 AM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
While this is good news I promise you that there is lots more that the PA will complain about.

ELC
UFA qualifying age
Arbitration rights
The softness of the TP in the dressing rooms.
etc
Steve Fehr said a while back if they could figure out how to divide the revenue, they could sort out all the other issues in about six hours.

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Old
11-03-2012, 09:02 AM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
The average salary in the NHL has almost doubled since the last lockout.
Check your facts

In 2003-04 salaries paid were about 1.6b

In 2011-12 salaries paid were less than 1.9b

That's double?

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Old
11-03-2012, 09:04 AM
  #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhfromkw View Post
Steve Fehr said a while back if they could figure out how to divide the revenue, they could sort out all the other issues in about six hours.
He said figure out the "core issues" or something to that effect. Perhaps he did mean only the revenue, but who knows what all the core issues are.

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Old
11-03-2012, 09:30 AM
  #313
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Though it's not clear how much of the "make whole" the owners are willing to pay, the big picture is that, regardless of his bluster about how this is the owners' "best offer," Bettman continues to offer concessions and negotiate against himself. Fehr has him on the run.

Fehr has no incentive to make a deal if Bettman continues to bluff and offer concessions. His incentive is to see how many concessions he can get.

Bettman needs to come forward with a proposal that gives the players something and that the players can work with. His strategy of lockout, cancel, pressure, bluster clearly isn't working and he needs to throw it overboard. The players are not going to accept pure linkage at around 50%.

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11-03-2012, 09:52 AM
  #314
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Listen at this point this might as well be war. The owners, people claim they lose nothing except the change to show off their product for sponsors. The players are losing a year. NHL owners have to realize they were the ones who wanted expansion so they should pay for it, not the players, not the fans. Leafs, rangers, Flyers, I feel sympathy because I am pro big market, but no one put a gun to their heads.

Fehr will try to (succeed at) getting rid of the cap.

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Old
11-03-2012, 10:00 AM
  #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSnow View Post
If its true that owners shifted the make whole part of their proposal to owners side, and such are honouring the players contracts, then this lockout should end. Because it takes the only remaining excuse the players have left.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alesle View Post
I'm sure Fehr is perfectly capable of coming up with some new excuse for the players.
I still don't understand how this is an excuse. They signed their contracts and they want them honored.

The horror! The selfish players looking to get what they were promised!

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Old
11-03-2012, 10:15 AM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
I still don't understand how this is an excuse. They signed their contracts and they want them honored.

The horror! The selfish players looking to get what they were promised!
I don't think you quite understand how contracts work with CBAs.

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Old
11-03-2012, 10:54 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Depends. The NHL may just be calling a PA bluff. All along the NHL had made tweaks to proposals to signal a willingness to address the PA talking point of the day. The latest one was "make whole". In the end the NHL I think really only truly cares about a couple of things. The major thing is a fully linked system at a 50:50ish split early in the new CBA. The next thing is closing up of the front loaded contracts loophole (and tacked on imaginary years).

If the PA remains steadfast in its refusal for a true full linked system I don't see much happening.
That's the thing, Fehr never even tried to negotiate off the leagues last offer to get better numbers for the players.He doessn't want a "fair" deal he wants a "Fehr" deal or no deal. I still think they are further apart then most think.

The question is do the players really want a delinked proposal or just Fehr?

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11-03-2012, 11:07 AM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Though it's not clear how much of the "make whole" the owners are willing to pay, the big picture is that, regardless of his bluster about how this is the owners' "best offer," Bettman continues to offer concessions and negotiate against himself. Fehr has him on the run.

Fehr has no incentive to make a deal if Bettman continues to bluff and offer concessions. His incentive is to see how many concessions he can get.

Bettman needs to come forward with a proposal that gives the players something and that the players can work with. His strategy of lockout, cancel, pressure, bluster clearly isn't working and he needs to throw it overboard. The players are not going to accept pure linkage at around 50%.
The leagues stategy seems to be to negotiate and try to get a deal done. Fehr on the otherhand hasn't done a whole lot besides stall and resubmit his proposal he knows the league won't except. If the players "just wanna play" they should show it. They really havn't acknowledged the leagues offer.

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11-03-2012, 11:22 AM
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greschner4 View Post
Though it's not clear how much of the "make whole" the owners are willing to pay, the big picture is that, regardless of his bluster about how this is the owners' "best offer," Bettman continues to offer concessions and negotiate against himself. Fehr has him on the run.

Fehr has no incentive to make a deal if Bettman continues to bluff and offer concessions. His incentive is to see how many concessions he can get.

Bettman needs to come forward with a proposal that gives the players something and that the players can work with. His strategy of lockout, cancel, pressure, bluster clearly isn't working and he needs to throw it overboard. The players are not going to accept pure linkage at around 50%.
You are seriously underestimating Bettman if you think that he is on the run right now.

The league is about one more snarky Fehr press conference from canning this season and ending a bunch of players' careers. If Fehr's intent is to give players the best deal possible, he would be extremely unwise to play this situation as if stalling will gain more concessions. What we're seeing now is probably the owners' last move with a 2013 season as the goal, rather than breaking the union as the goal.

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11-03-2012, 11:24 AM
  #320
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Have the sides even agreed on what constitutes HRR?

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11-03-2012, 11:28 AM
  #321
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
NHL owners have to realize they were the ones who wanted expansion so they should pay for it, not the players, not the fans. Leafs, rangers, Flyers, I feel sympathy because I am pro big market, but no one put a gun to their heads.
Both owners and players agreed that expansion into the areas people are all complaining about was essential to the growth of the league and important. One of the head PA members was also a big voice for keeping the team in Phoenix.

This expansion also created more jobs for the players, and owners are footing the losses to have increased revenue which is increasing player salaries.

Even without the Phoenixes and the Columbuses, the league would be financially unsustainable.

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11-03-2012, 11:39 AM
  #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Listen at this point this might as well be war. The owners, people claim they lose nothing except the change to show off their product for sponsors. The players are losing a year. NHL owners have to realize they were the ones who wanted expansion so they should pay for it, not the players, not the fans. Leafs, rangers, Flyers, I feel sympathy because I am pro big market, but no one put a gun to their heads.

Fehr will try to (succeed at) getting rid of the cap.
Fehr won't be able to get rid of the salary cap. He might be able to get more revenue sharing. It's too bad he hasn't even brought it up since the NHL improved their offer in terms of revenue sharing.

Makes one wonder what Fehr is really doing?

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11-03-2012, 11:39 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Gret99zky View Post
Have the sides even agreed on what constitutes HRR?
It's a bit of a red herring. Fact is the very large majority of HRR is easily agreed upon and the rest is simply nibbling at the edges. It doesn't much change things in the grand scheme of thing especially when the league is offering to make whole.

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11-03-2012, 11:49 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Fehr won't be able to get rid of the salary cap. He might be able to get more revenue sharing. It's too bad he hasn't even brought it up since the NHL improved their offer in terms of revenue sharing.

Makes one wonder what Fehr is really doing?
The obvious answer is stalling, however like you said he really hasn't brought anything up of any substance, no ideas, no new thoughts or demands for the players....nothing just that same delinked proposal he has. His obvious tactic is to play chicken but he has to do something....arn't the players wondering what he is doing?

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11-03-2012, 12:27 PM
  #325
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Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
1/2. Don Fehr memo last night to players: "You may have seen media reports of supposed league 'offer' regarding make-whole aspect..

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie2/2 Fehr: "There have been no proposals from either side since Oct. 18. You should not read too much into reports of informal phone calls."

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