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Ryan O'Reilly Vs Jaden Schwartz + Roman Polak

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Old
11-03-2012, 10:24 AM
  #101
Prussian_Blue
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Originally Posted by FoppaForsberg View Post
Personally i'd want 2 of Oshie/Perron/Shattenkirk/Backes/Berglund, but I doubt any STL fan would that deal.
Two of those players for Duchene alone ?

You've been hanging out with Cheech and Chong, haven't you?

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11-03-2012, 10:42 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Two of those players for Duchene alone ?

You've been hanging out with Cheech and Chong, haven't you?
None of those guys have Duchene's potential. Perron maybe, but it's a stretch. Maybe even Duchene + Elliott but not much else. Oshie/Perron/Shattenkirk/Berglund/Backes are all a few years older then Duchene. by the time Duchene's 24,25 like Oshie/Perron, he could be worth even more.

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11-03-2012, 12:39 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Two of those players for Duchene alone ?

You've been hanging out with Cheech and Chong, haven't you?
Oshie's a bit underrated and Backes is definitely a step above the others from my perspective, but he's not entirely without reason for wanting that. You had fellow Blues fans that felt Oshie + something small was equal to Duchene.

In the end when discussing value, I still feel Oshie + a top prospect of the likes of Schwartz/Tarasenko or a top 10-ish pick would be close to a middle ground between what both sides would need to make a deal happen. But that's in a vaccuum where that trade benefits both clubs, when in fact moving Duchene doesn't benefit us unless we're getting a young top pairing defender of the likes of OEL.

Don't get hung up on his points, he was leading our offensive starved team in goals prior to getting injured and that was during the great left wing experiment of 2011 (tbh, I'm still somewhat curious if it's not for the best to try and move him there given our team's needs). He's still one of the best skaters in the league and has extremely slick hands.


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11-03-2012, 12:48 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Two of those players for Duchene alone ?

You've been hanging out with Cheech and Chong, haven't you?
Don't make yourself look like a tit. Duchene's potential takes any of those guys out behind the shack and puts them down. You don't get lottery pick, future top line centres that have outproduced any of the players being added at an incredibly young age for nothing. Give your head a shake.

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11-03-2012, 02:06 PM
  #105
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You're talking like Duchene is some offensive superstar. He's a good player but Oshie plays a much better all-round game. Duchene didn't even hit 30 points last year. I know it was probably a bad year and it's not like that's going to be a norm or anything but I still don't think the difference between Duchene and Oshie is Rattie and a first.
Lol, you obviously have no idea what Duchene's potential is. He's 21 years old. It's higher than any forward on the Blues easily. He had 55 and 67 points in his first 2 seasons. Duchene played 58 games last year. Yeah he still had a down year but don't try to make it look like he had less than 30 points in a full season. He was the #3 overall pick for a reason and his skating and offensive talent is pretty amazing. He can easily become an 80-90 point player consistently.

Yeah Oshie is better defensively but that doesn't make up for the extra 30+ points that Duchene will probably be outscoring him by. Duchene's trade value is way ahead of Oshie's. Sorry if you can't realize that. Colorado isn't trading their potential franchise #1 center for T.J. Oshie unless a lot is added on. Use your head and realize that Colorado has no reason to do that. They really don't need Oshie. Guys like Ryan O'Reilly, Gabe Landeskog, Downie, McGinn, Jones, etc. provide enough of the style that Oshie does, and so moving Duchene for that would be absolutely stupid.

You have to realize that Oshie is more valuable to the Blues than he is in a trade to certain teams. As good of a two-way player he is, Duchene does have the potential to be an offensive star in this league, so the gap between the two players is pretty large.

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11-03-2012, 02:12 PM
  #106
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Duchene for Oshie + something like a first round pick and a moderate prospect is not something Blues fans should sneeze at.

Not sure if the Avs would move him for that but this is all hypothetical as they aren't trading him regardless.

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11-03-2012, 02:14 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by stlblues9 View Post
You're talking like Duchene is some offensive superstar. He's a good player but Oshie plays a much better all-round game. Duchene didn't even hit 30 points last year. I know it was probably a bad year and it's not like that's going to be a norm or anything but I still don't think the difference between Duchene and Oshie is Rattie and a first.
Your not serious, are you? Duchene has far more offensive potential than Oshie. Yes, last year he had a bad year. Before that? His rookie season was better than anything that Oshie has put up in 4 years, and his 67 point season is easily better than anything Oshie has done. Is he an offensive superstar? No. Does he have the potential to be one? Absolutely. His offensive potential is far more than that of Oshie's, sorry. Oshie certainly has a more all around game, but I don't think it even comes close to making up the difference of what Duchene could be. Oshie+Rattie+1st? I would still not accept that from the Avs POV, even though you think that is overpayment.

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11-03-2012, 03:15 PM
  #108
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I think Colorado should hang on to Duchene until he turns into what they're selling him as, maybe then someone will pay that price.

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11-03-2012, 03:22 PM
  #109
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I think Colorado should hang on to Duchene until he turns into what they're selling him as, maybe then someone will pay that price.
If he turns into what they are selling him as, they won't trade him.

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11-03-2012, 07:08 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by FrontalLombardomy View Post
Duchene's potential takes any of those guys out behind the shack and puts them down.
Only on this board could a single player with "potential" be considered worth two players who have proven themselves as NHLers...

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11-03-2012, 07:12 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Prussian_Blue View Post
Only on this board could a single player with "potential" be considered worth two players who have proven themselves as NHLers...
Does that mean two 4th liners have more value than, lets say, Taresenko? Your choice of wording is very poor, but I think I get what you mean. However, absolutely, some players have so much potential that they are worth more than two proven players. Is what he was asking for for Duchene overpayment? Yes. Is Duchene's market value worth that much? Probably not. Would it take that much to pry him away from the Avs? Considering what he could become, probably yes.

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11-03-2012, 07:43 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Does that mean two 4th liners have more value than, lets say, Taresenko? Your choice of wording is very poor, but I think I get what you mean. However, absolutely, some players have so much potential that they are worth more than two proven players. Is what he was asking for for Duchene overpayment? Yes. Is Duchene's market value worth that much? Probably not. Would it take that much to pry him away from the Avs? Considering what he could become, probably yes.
It appears obvious you don't understand how "potential" works in the NHL.

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11-03-2012, 07:54 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by underslept View Post
It appears obvious you don't understand how "potential" works in the NHL.
Explain? Absolutely some players have more value than proven players because they have more potential.

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11-03-2012, 08:58 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Does that mean two 4th liners have more value than, lets say, Taresenko? Your choice of wording is very poor, but I think I get what you mean. However, absolutely, some players have so much potential that they are worth more than two proven players. Is what he was asking for for Duchene overpayment? Yes. Is Duchene's market value worth that much? Probably not. Would it take that much to pry him away from the Avs? Considering what he could become, probably yes.
But we aren't talking about fourth liners.

We are talking about guys with 30/30 potential, or 30/30/100 Selke nominee, or 45 point defensemen. And TWO of them.

Clearly Duchene's would return any one of them plus something. But to ask for a 30/30/100 Selke nominee AND a ~45 point PMD for Duchene is WAY too much. Ask all you want, but all of the players named have proven too much and are too talented to return one player with great potential.

One of those guys, plus a prospect like Rattie? A heck of a lot closer. But there is some serious undervaluing of Blues players to think that Duchene could return Backes AND Shattenkirk.

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11-03-2012, 09:18 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
But we aren't talking about fourth liners.

We are talking about guys with 30/30 potential, or 30/30/100 Selke nominee, or 45 point defensemen. And TWO of them.

Clearly Duchene's would return any one of them plus something. But to ask for a 30/30/100 Selke nominee AND a ~45 point PMD for Duchene is WAY too much. Ask all you want, but all of the players named have proven too much and are too talented to return one player with great potential.

One of those guys, plus a prospect like Rattie? A heck of a lot closer. But there is some serious undervaluing of Blues players to think that Duchene could return Backes AND Shattenkirk.
If management went to St.Louis and said we'll give you Duchene for Backes and Shattenkirk, I'm pretty sure they'd say no. However that's what it would take to get him out of there because of what he means to Colorado and what he provides when healthy.

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11-03-2012, 09:52 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by bluemandan View Post
But we aren't talking about fourth liners.

We are talking about guys with 30/30 potential, or 30/30/100 Selke nominee, or 45 point defensemen. And TWO of them.

Clearly Duchene's would return any one of them plus something.
But to ask for a 30/30/100 Selke nominee AND a ~45 point PMD for Duchene is WAY too much. Ask all you want, but all of the players named have proven too much and are too talented to return one
player with great potential.

One of those guys, plus a prospect like Rattie? A heck of a lot closer. But there is some serious undervaluing of Blues players to
think that Duchene could return Backes AND Shattenkirk.
Your basically taking the two best guys on his list he named and putting them together. I don't think he meant take the two most valuable guys off his 5 player list. In fact, take Backes off the list. However, Oshie+another on of the guys he named? Would the Blues do it? Of course not. But I certainly would not be interested in something like Oshie/Berglund+Rattie. If it was Backes+Rattie I would be very interested, but I left him out of it because he won't be moved.

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11-04-2012, 12:18 AM
  #117
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My fellow Blues fans, you are wrong here. There is no way Colorado would accept Oshie, Rattie and a 1st for Duchene. I'd love to hear reasoning for why you think they would/should. Bash "potential" all you want but you look like hypocrites because of it. Every time a Blues player is in a trade proposal you all talk about their potential (Tarasenko, Berglund, Perron, etc) and act like they are untouchable. And now you are underrating the heck out of Duchene just because of one bad year. Funny. We aren't getting Duchene so stop trying.

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11-04-2012, 01:05 AM
  #118
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It's a bit strange to talk about Oshie as a sure thing and Duchene as someone with potential, considering Duchene's best season is 67 points as a 20 year old and Oshie's best season is 54 points as a 25 year old.

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11-04-2012, 01:50 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
My fellow Blues fans, you are wrong here. There is no way Colorado would accept Oshie, Rattie and a 1st for Duchene. I'd love to hear reasoning for why you think they would/should. Bash "potential" all you want but you look like hypocrites because of it. Every time a Blues player is in a trade proposal you all talk about their potential (Tarasenko, Berglund, Perron, etc) and act like they are untouchable. And now you are underrating the heck out of Duchene just because of one bad year. Funny. We aren't getting Duchene so stop trying.
I agree but I don't think the Blues would make the offer in the 1st place. It's a lot to give up for a hole that I really don't see. Would I like to have Duchene, he'll yea but I think Backes, Berglund, Steen is a very solid group of centers. Besides Oshie and Backes fit Hitchs system way too well to be traded.

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11-04-2012, 09:19 AM
  #120
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Blues don't really have the pieces that'd make trading Duchene worth it. I don't understand why HF has an issue with the Avs keeping all three of their centers and continuing to just roll 3 scoring lines, but if one of our Centers is getting shipped off we better be getting a top pairing lefty to partner with EJ. Seeing as that's one of STL biggest needs as well, I don't see how a trade could make sense for both teams.

Duchene may be coming off a terrible year where he got moved around, injured and then came back for the playoff push and wasn't even close to healthy. But before that he had put up a 67 point campaign at 20, that included an Allstar game appearance since the kid was on a PPG pace at that point in the season. Duchene's still got a ton of things to work out and improve upon, but if he does he can be one of the league's premier players because there aren't many people on this planet with his hands, skating and leg strength. From the neck down this kid's every bit as good as Crosby. He may never figure out the mental part and become that perennial 90 point threat that he can become, but considering he's already nearly hit 70 points, expecting the kid to become an excellent center over the next few years isn't really a stretch. That's why he's so valuable to the Avs and why it would take someone like OEL to pry him away.

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11-04-2012, 06:18 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
My fellow Blues fans, you are wrong here. There is no way Colorado would accept Oshie, Rattie and a 1st for Duchene. I'd love to hear reasoning for why you think they would/should. Bash "potential" all you want but you look like hypocrites because of it. Every time a Blues player is in a trade proposal you all talk about their potential (Tarasenko, Berglund, Perron, etc) and act like they are untouchable. And now you are underrating the heck out of Duchene just because of one bad year. Funny. We aren't getting Duchene so stop trying.
Dear fellow Blues fan,

I'm not trying to undervalue Duchene. I just honestly don't think that Duchene is worth Backes and Shattenkirk. I doubt many other people feel that Backes and Shattenkirk is fair value for Duchene.

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11-04-2012, 06:29 PM
  #122
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I like O'Reilly and I like Polak, but I'm more comfortable with the Blues' offense, so I'd keep Polak.

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