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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:34 AM
  #326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
1/2. Don Fehr memo last night to players: "You may have seen media reports of supposed league 'offer' regarding make-whole aspect..

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie2/2 Fehr: "There have been no proposals from either side since Oct. 18. You should not read too much into reports of informal phone calls."
Those quotes from fehr literally mean nothing. What's the point?

Yet today the sides are meeting

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11-03-2012, 11:36 AM
  #327
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An olive branch from the league on the make whole offer...hmmm, wishful thinking...

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:38 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burtonboy View Post
Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie
1/2. Don Fehr memo last night to players: "You may have seen media reports of supposed league 'offer' regarding make-whole aspect..

Larry Brooks ‏@NYP_Brooksie2/2 Fehr: "There have been no proposals from either side since Oct. 18. You should not read too much into reports of informal phone calls."
It's all in the wording here.

Sounds to me like the NHL was more or less suggesting via phone they could do this...that's not technically an ''offer'' or a ''proposal'', which would come in written form.

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:40 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by They call me Tytan View Post
Check your facts

In 2003-04 salaries paid were about 1.6b

In 2011-12 salaries paid were less than 1.9b

That's double?
In 04 the avg salary was around 1.3M and in 2011 the avg was 2.4 so yes, almost doubled...when revenue increased around 35% from 2.1B to 3.3B

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:44 AM
  #330
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@ChrisBottaNHL: In memo to PA, Don Fehr shoots down report of Make Whole concessions. In text, player calls report "latest NHL smokescreen"

For gods sake then do something nhlpa . Joke

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:46 AM
  #331
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James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
In a memo to players, Don Fehr says the PA did not receive a new proposal from the league but has merely been in informal talks with them.

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Don Fehr to players last night: "You should not read too much into media reports about informal phone calls."

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Fehr: "Both sides have agreed to keep [today's meeting] confidential... to keep the focus on the talks and not on conducting media scrums."

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:51 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
It's all in the wording here.

Sounds to me like the NHL was more or less suggesting via phone they could do this...that's not technically an ''offer'' or a ''proposal'', which would come in written form.
Its definitely not a proposal ,even Daley said that . Just suggesting ways to move the process forward

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Old
11-03-2012, 11:59 AM
  #333
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Keep everything confidential until you sign the damn CBA.

Don't mess with the fans anymore.

All I want is to hear that they are meeting and are getting progress....

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:06 PM
  #334
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I already don't like the path we're headed down here today......trying to ignore these comments as much as possible.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:10 PM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
In a memo to players, Don Fehr says the PA did not receive a new proposal from the league but has merely been in informal talks with them.

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Don Fehr to players last night: "You should not read too much into media reports about informal phone calls."

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Fehr: "Both sides have agreed to keep [today's meeting] confidential... to keep the focus on the talks and not on conducting media scrums."
Lawyer speak, the NHL hasnt made a formal proposal just heavily hinted at a possible solution. So Fehr's comments are justifiable to some extent. I do however belive that he should be informing at the very least his negotiating comitee about the possible concession and devising ways to maximize the PA's benefits out of it. If like most of the players the negotiating comittee hasn't heard of it then Fehr isnt doing his job. But it seems that there is starting to be some unrest amongst the players and I don't think Fehr will be able to keep them inline that much longer, sooner or later the players will force him to make a deal.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:14 PM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crows View Post
@ChrisBottaNHL: In memo to PA, Don Fehr shoots down report of Make Whole concessions. In text, player calls report "latest NHL smokescreen"
Smokescreen? This is what your idiot PA head said was wrong with the deal. Now corrected. They fixed that part, now if there's more wrong, you negotiate. Uugh, my head...

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:15 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by The Dingo View Post
You can think what you want. But it's not the case

The old CBA is in place until a new one is agreed to. Go read some labor law. You too Ron C.

If there was no CBA in pace, the players wouldn't have gotten their escrow checks
Don't think I will go read labor law, not interested. But I do know contract law.

That agreement is expired. Your example of escrow is just that...escrow. It is a remedy in place for the duration of the previous CBA. The checks that the players received have nothing to do with Sep 15th 2012 until now.

At any rate, we can agree to disagree. The fact the players negotiated 57% last time does not mean that they have it now. That percentage only serves to form as a historical starting point. In other words, if there business shuts down completely, they have what they have now - which is nothing. We are probably just arguing semantics anyway...I am sure we both understand where each other is coming from, cheers

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:22 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Lawyer speak, the NHL hasnt made a formal proposal just heavily hinted at a possible solution. So Fehr's comments are justifiable to some extent. I do however belive that he should be informing at the very least his negotiating comitee about the possible concession and devising ways to maximize the PA's benefits out of it. If like most of the players the negotiating comittee hasn't heard of it then Fehr isnt doing his job. But it seems that there is starting to be some unrest amongst the players and I don't think Fehr will be able to keep them inline that much longer, sooner or later the players will force him to make a deal.


At least force him to do something...should a season be starched can he really say he did everything he could?

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:23 PM
  #339
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Quote:
James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Fehr: "Both sides have agreed to keep [today's meeting] confidential... to keep the focus on the talks and not on conducting media scrums."
Well there's good news. I think everyone understands that when they are negotiating through the press it implies motives besides those of reaching a quick solution.

The players have made it clear for quite some time that they dont believe they will see the owners best offer until sometime around December, after the Winter Classic was cancelled. Many of us have also written that here. So then it goes without saying that Bettman would realize he wont see the PA's best offer until this time either. This was the whole point of all the pageantry that's happened to date - to pull that trigger back and leave it cocked, locked, and ready to go off. Also known as exercising their leverage.

So here we are. This was the point when most were expecting something would start to happen because no one really wants to go forward off the fiscal cliff.

Bettman paid good money for a focus group report that advised him to steal the players phrase of 'shared sacrifice' when selling the return of hockey. Now is the time when the players would expect to see some actions behind those words.

So far, this whisper rumour campaign that the owners are contemplating doing the right thing that everyone realizes is necessary if they are to compromise to get a deal rather than scorch the earth for one, doesnt really sound like much as usual. To make whole player contracts in this first year only, a year where there is no chance of them getting their full contracts anyway because the season will be shortened, and contracts pro-rated, and thus whole value only a portion of full value is a typically misleading offer from the offers. Hopefully there's more behind it than that.

But now we are in the last month - on the edge of the cliff. A lot of players dont want to go over it and would rather find an agreement. A lot of owners dont want to go over it and would rather find an agreement. Bettman has already won his principle and they are now haggling over the final few touches on the deal: you gotta throw in the appliances and pay for a roof inspection type stuff.

Can Bettman accept victory and give us hockey for Christmas? Probably another month of teetering on the cliff. Hopefully the only noise we hear going forward is from those not involved in negotiations.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:29 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLONG7 View Post
In 04 the avg salary was around 1.3M and in 2011 the avg was 2.4 so yes, almost doubled...when revenue increased around 35% from 2.1B to 3.3B
Now there's a beautiful misuse of statistics isnt it? I might save that one for my collection.

Regardless what happened to the mean average for salaries, the total envelope for salary payments maintained complete cost certainty throughout the deal and rose in direct synchronization with revenues - not a penny faster.

Revenue sharing on the other had, which was also supposed to be linked to revenue became decoupled and shrank. The principle of linkage wasnt fought over there.

If the owners have an ounce of sincerity in the media leak they announced of working towards making whole out of their money rather than future players, then of course they would also be de-linking.

It seems rather poor business judgement to refuse a salary freeze from the players on the grounds that a freeze would be de-linking. Kind of misses the forest for the trees?

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11-03-2012, 12:30 PM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surixon View Post
Lawyer speak, the NHL hasnt made a formal proposal just heavily hinted at a possible solution. So Fehr's comments are justifiable to some extent. I do however belive that he should be informing at the very least his negotiating comitee about the possible concession and devising ways to maximize the PA's benefits out of it. If like most of the players the negotiating comittee hasn't heard of it then Fehr isnt doing his job. But it seems that there is starting to be some unrest amongst the players and I don't think Fehr will be able to keep them inline that much longer, sooner or later the players will force him to make a deal.
That last sentence could just as easily be:

But it seems that there is starting to be some unrest amongst the owners and I don't think Bettman will be able to keep them inline that much longer, sooner or later the owners will force him to make a deal.

If there's any truth, it's that some of the owners and some of the players are putting pressure on their respective representitives in these negotiations.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:31 PM
  #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
I don't think you quite understand how contracts work with CBAs.
I think you are missing one of the players points.
Look back to all the contracts signed from July 1-Sept 15, especially all of the ones signed last minute. No other league operates that way. Other leagues lockouts happen before free agency, before players are signed to contracts that are going to be paid out at a much lower percentage.
The players are also trying to break the precedent of the owners signing players to contracts that they can't afford to pay and then simply rolling them back each time the owners decide the system that they designed isn't working.

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11-03-2012, 12:31 PM
  #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post

So far, this whisper rumour campaign that the owners are contemplating doing the right thing that everyone realizes is necessary if they are to compromise to get a deal rather than scorch the earth for one, doesnt really sound like much as usual. To make whole player contracts in this first year only, a year where there is no chance of them getting their full contracts anyway because the season will be shortened, and contracts pro-rated, and thus whole value only a portion of full value is a typically misleading offer from the offers. Hopefully there's more behind it than that.
It would still be better for both sides. Owners aren't making revenues because the league is shut down. Players aren't getting paid, so they'd get the prorated salaries of whatever remains of the season at the 'make whole' level, which ostensibly is higher than 50/50. It will be interesting to see the details.

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11-03-2012, 12:32 PM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thinkwild View Post
Well there's good news. I think everyone understands that when they are negotiating through the press it implies motives besides those of reaching a quick solution.

The players have made it clear for quite some time that they dont believe they will see the owners best offer until sometime around December, after the Winter Classic was cancelled. Many of us have also written that here. So then it goes without saying that Bettman would realize he wont see the PA's best offer until this time either. This was the whole point of all the pageantry that's happened to date - to pull that trigger back and leave it cocked, locked, and ready to go off. Also known as exercising their leverage.

So here we are. This was the point when most were expecting something would start to happen because no one really wants to go forward off the fiscal cliff.

Bettman paid good money for a focus group report that advised him to steal the players phrase of 'shared sacrifice' when selling the return of hockey. Now is the time when the players would expect to see some actions behind those words.

So far, this whisper rumour campaign that the owners are contemplating doing the right thing that everyone realizes is necessary if they are to compromise to get a deal rather than scorch the earth for one, doesnt really sound like much as usual. To make whole player contracts in this first year only, a year where there is no chance of them getting their full contracts anyway because the season will be shortened, and contracts pro-rated, and thus whole value only a portion of full value is a typically misleading offer from the offers. Hopefully there's more behind it than that.

But now we are in the last month - on the edge of the cliff. A lot of players dont want to go over it and would rather find an agreement. A lot of owners dont want to go over it and would rather find an agreement. Bettman has already won his principle and they are now haggling over the final few touches on the deal: you gotta throw in the appliances and pay for a roof inspection type stuff.

Can Bettman accept victory and give us hockey for Christmas? Probably another month of teetering on the cliff. Hopefully the only noise we hear going forward is from those not involved in negotiations.
Are you sure about that? Fehr doesn't even sem interested in the league's proposal and keeps giving his delinked crap. Why hasn't Fehr negotiated from the leagues offer to get some favourable numbers for the players? Why wont he do anything?

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:34 PM
  #345
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Kind of misses the forest for the trees?
Pretty much. The NHL telling the PA they have a sliver in their eye when they themselves have a giant old growth Californian Redwood Cedar log, like the size of the trunk lodged in their own.... but OK, carry on.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:39 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
That last sentence could just as easily be:

But it seems that there is starting to be some unrest amongst the owners and I don't think Bettman will be able to keep them inline that much longer, sooner or later the owners will force him to make a deal.

If there's any truth, it's that some of the owners and some of the players are putting pressure on their respective representitives in these negotiations.

One expects this to be the case as you get closer and closer to a deal. I think the only thing that potentially skews the NHL's approval is that only 8 team votes can still nix any proposal-- along with Bettman. Catering to the outliers may not be the best way to get quick resolution.

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11-03-2012, 12:41 PM
  #347
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so... the league made a concession without an accompanying ultimatum?

whoa. I guess people can learn from their mistakes.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:43 PM
  #348
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James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Fehr: "Both sides have agreed to keep [today's meeting] confidential... to keep the focus on the talks and not on conducting media scrums."

This is very very good news.

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:47 PM
  #349
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If they could just meet and spend the next week or so negotiating then that'd be a good start towards a new CBA.

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11-03-2012, 12:52 PM
  #350
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It seems as if Fehr is negotiating against the NHL, not with the NHL... Whereas the NHL is at least trying to "extend the olive branch" to the players by putting offers to them that at least have something in it for them. If Fehr and the NHLPA continue negotiating against the NHL, I think it's clear to be that the players are okay with losing money to push Bettman out.

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