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Old
11-03-2012, 12:39 PM
  #126
JayRosehillforMVP
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Just curious, are leafs fans at all interested in a deal involving Voracek+ for Gardiner? I know you have wingers, but he could be a good complement to Kessel, or form a great shutdown line with Kulemin and Grabovski.

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11-03-2012, 12:43 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Flyers7 View Post
Just curious, are leafs fans at all interested in a deal involving Voracek+ for Gardiner? I know you have wingers, but he could be a good complement to Kessel, or form a great shutdown line with Kulemin and Grabovski.
Although I really like Voracek, our wing depth is second to only D depth in positional strength. Voracek would be similar calibre to Kulemin, JVR, And Macarthur while a notch below Kessel and Lupul just in terms of roster players, then we have Kadri and Frattin ready to break into the league. So it'll be a no-go.

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11-03-2012, 12:50 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Flyers7 View Post
Just curious, are leafs fans at all interested in a deal involving Voracek+ for Gardiner? I know you have wingers, but he could be a good complement to Kessel, or form a great shutdown line with Kulemin and Grabovski.
No. We already have too many wingers and wingers soon-to-break-in, Voracek doesn't really add anything special, and Gardiner is essentially untradeable at this point.

And we already have a good winger compliment to Kessel.

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11-03-2012, 01:21 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Flyers7 View Post
Just curious, are leafs fans at all interested in a deal involving Voracek+ for Gardiner? I know you have wingers, but he could be a good complement to Kessel, or form a great shutdown line with Kulemin and Grabovski.
Voracek is the flyers top-line RW. They can't move him for a developing 2-3 defenseman.

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11-03-2012, 01:34 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Flyers7 View Post
Just curious, are leafs fans at all interested in a deal involving Voracek+ for Gardiner? I know you have wingers, but he could be a good complement to Kessel, or form a great shutdown line with Kulemin and Grabovski.
If the Leafs need anything less of is wingers as they are already loaded with 2nd line wingers, Gardiner will/should only be moved for a legit 1C or a proven starter in goal

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11-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #131
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Except he did play minutes against top players as well, at important times. And since he played so much more time than Couturier overall, he actually likely ended up playing more real time against top players than Couturier. It is essentially impossible to play 22 minutes, play in all situations, and still be sheltered.

Also, age means very little, especially since Gardiner is a defenseman (who take longer to develop) and he came from a harder-to-adjust league.

I highly doubt Couturier will be much further along, if at all further along when he is 21.
No, it isn't. In Cam Fowler's first season he played 22 minutes a game, which is only about a minute less than he played this past season. The difference is that in Fowler's 1st season he was playing top 4 minutes while being sheltered defensively, and in his 2nd season he was playing top 4 minutes against the toughest competition. Take it from someone who knows, and has seen first hand the difference between a lot of minutes, and top minutes. It's not that hard to shelter a player who is playing a lot of minutes. Just give them more offensive starts, PP time, and avoid putting them out there against an opposing team's top line. Considering a top forward line isn't usually on the ice for more than 20 minutes(and those are a lot of minutes for a forward) there is plenty of ice time left over for a young player like Gardiner.

And the insinuation that a 19 year old player won't improve in 2 or 3 years is, frankly, absurd.

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11-03-2012, 02:24 PM
  #132
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Gardiner was drafted as a raw, unpolished talent. He also only started playing D a couple years prior to be being drafted. Coutourier was definately drafted as being more NHL ready than Gardiner, not all players develop at the same rate. Take Luke Schenn, he was from the same 1st round as Gardiner, makes the NHL straight out of the draft...3 years later and he's no further along in his development and getting outplayed by the rookie Gardiner.
My team was the one who drafted Gardiner. You don't think I know exactly what Gardiner was when he was drafted? Gardiner being a project doesn't mean Couturier is going to just stop improving. That's a pretty poor argument. Couturier is 19 years old. How many forwards can you name who just stopped improving at 19? Bringing up Luke Schenn really doesn't prove your point, since he was a defenseman who many would say was rushed.

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11-03-2012, 02:59 PM
  #133
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No, it isn't. In Cam Fowler's first season he played 22 minutes a game, which is only about a minute less than he played this past season. The difference is that in Fowler's 1st season he was playing top 4 minutes while being sheltered defensively, and in his 2nd season he was playing top 4 minutes against the toughest competition. Take it from someone who knows, and has seen first hand the difference between a lot of minutes, and top minutes. It's not that hard to shelter a player who is playing a lot of minutes. Just give them more offensive starts, PP time, and avoid putting them out there against an opposing team's top line. Considering a top forward line isn't usually on the ice for more than 20 minutes(and those are a lot of minutes for a forward) there is plenty of ice time left over for a young player like Gardiner.

And the insinuation that a 19 year old player won't improve in 2 or 3 years is, frankly, absurd.
Regardless of how you think Fowler played, Gardiner played both a lot of minutes and minutes against top opposition/PK minutes/tough minutes, and given the TOI discrepancies, probably more overall than Couturier.

And once again, I didn't say Couturier wouldn't improve. I said Couturier likely wouldn't improve past the level that Gardiner played at last year by 21. Which is a stupid thing to be discussing anyway, since defenseman take longer to develop, and Gardiner had the harder league transition. Experience is way more important than age, and thus we should be comparing both of their rookie seasons, where Gardiner was better.

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11-03-2012, 03:08 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Regardless of how you think Fowler played, Gardiner played both a lot of minutes and minutes against top opposition/PK minutes/tough minutes, and given the TOI discrepancies, probably more overall than Couturier.

And once again, I didn't say Couturier wouldn't improve. I said Couturier likely wouldn't improve past the level that Gardiner played at last year by 21. Which is a stupid thing to be discussing anyway, since defenseman take longer to develop, and Gardiner had the harder league transition. Experience is way more important than age, and thus we should be comparing both of their rookie seasons, where Gardiner was better.
I don't really agree with most of your post--you seem to keep insisting that Gardiner played against top-competition, despite the statistical evidence to the contrary, and I certainly don't see how the transition from NCAA / AHL to NHL is more difficult than that from QMJHL to NHL is, but I really don't know what this last part means.

Obviously, it is quite difficult to compare a defenseman and a center, and yes, Gardiner outscored Couturier during the regular season (while getting greater opportunities to produce offensively), but Couturier was the best defensive forward on a playoff team, whereas Gardiner was the, what, 2nd or 3rd best defenseman on a bottom-feeder? I'm not really sure where it is clear that Gardiner was the superior player last year at all.

EDIT: What's the point of this on-going debate anyway? To figure out which team would say "no" faster or louder? Obviously, Toronto fans are happy with Gardiner and believe he is more useful to them going forward than Couturier. That's pretty clearly the consensus among Flyers fans as well. Isn't it time to let this thing fade to the obscurity of page 2?

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11-03-2012, 03:16 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Regardless of how you think Fowler played, Gardiner played both a lot of minutes and minutes against top opposition/PK minutes/tough minutes, and given the TOI discrepancies, probably more overall than Couturier.
You can keep saying that, but statistical evidence doesn't support that claim.

Quote:
And once again, I didn't say Couturier wouldn't improve. I said Couturier likely wouldn't improve past the level that Gardiner played at last year by 21. Which is a stupid thing to be discussing anyway, since defenseman take longer to develop, and Gardiner had the harder league transition. Experience is way more important than age, and thus we should be comparing both of their rookie seasons, where Gardiner was better.
Strange argument. Gardiner was put into a better position to succeed. All things being equal, that increases his chances of having a better rookie season. It doesn't make him more valuable, or mean that he'll be the better player throughout his career. You seem to be making an argument in a vacuum.

And how did Gardiner have the harder league transition?

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11-03-2012, 03:32 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I don't really agree with most of your post--you seem to keep insisting that Gardiner played against top-competition, despite the statistical evidence to the contrary, and I certainly don't see how the transition from NCAA / AHL to NHL is more difficult than that from QMJHL to NHL is, but I really don't know what this last part means.
The statistical evidence doesn't say the contrary. It says as an average it was less, not he never played against top opposition, and those statistics are flawed anyway.

I literally SAW him play against top opposition, on the PK, and in tough situations, as I watched every single Leaf game.

As for NCAA vs. QMJHL, QMJHL play more games in a season (meaning they are more accustomed to a longer season) and it is a style more similar to the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Obviously, it is quite difficult to compare a defenseman and a center, and yes, Gardiner outscored Couturier during the regular season (while getting greater opportunities to produce offensively), but Couturier was the best defensive forward on a playoff team, whereas Gardiner was the, what, 2nd or 3rd best defenseman on a bottom-feeder? I'm not really sure where it is clear that Gardiner was the superior player last year at all.
Couturier was not the best defensive forward on the Flyers. Funny how you only used advanced statistics when talking about Gardiner.

Gardiner being on a bottom-feeder had no impact in where he played. We actually had a very deep, full defensive core, and he forced us to play him. It's too bad your playoff team wouldn't use "the best defensive player" more. Sure would have helped them. I guess they wanted to lose.

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EDIT: What's the point of this on-going debate anyway? To figure out which team would say "no" faster or louder? Obviously, Toronto fans are happy with Gardiner and believe he is more useful to them going forward than Couturier. That's pretty clearly the consensus among Flyers fans as well. Isn't it time to let this thing fade to the obscurity of page 2?
I agree. Both sides say no. I just don't appreciate people continually laughing at the Leafs for not taking a bad deal.

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11-03-2012, 03:43 PM
  #137
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Being sheltered doesn't mean you never see top opposition, Whydidijoin. With shifts happening so regularly, and so fluidly in the game, that's an unrealistic expectation.

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11-03-2012, 04:10 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post

Couturier was not the best defensive forward on the Flyers. Funny how you only used advanced statistics when talking about Gardiner.
Really? I'd love to know who our best defensive forward was if Couturier was not.

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11-03-2012, 04:23 PM
  #139
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What does being the "best defensive forward" mean in terms of value? Manny Malhotra was the best defensive forward on a PT and SCF team, but being elite defensively doesn't do much for value. As of now Gardiner hasn't proven himself in a defensive role(with not much opportunity to do so) and Couturier hasn't done so in an offensive role(also without the opportunity to do so).

It's kind of strange when you think about it, a defenseman who's proven offensively and a forward who's proven defensively.

Couturier does have age going for him though, which is in his favour.

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11-03-2012, 04:37 PM
  #140
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What does being the "best defensive forward" mean in terms of value? Manny Malhotra was the best defensive forward on a PT and SCF team, but being elite defensively doesn't do much for value. As of now Gardiner hasn't proven himself in a defensive role(with not much opportunity to do so) and Couturier hasn't done so in an offensive role(also without the opportunity to do so).

It's kind of strange when you think about it, a defenseman who's proven offensively and a forward who's proven defensively.

Couturier does have age going for him though, which is in his favour.
I can't remember another forward who can into the NHL out of his draft year and was deemed by his coach to be the team's best defensive player by the end of training camp.

Ironically, it is Couturier's superior defensive abilities (as a 19 year old) that have led people to pigeonhole him and forget his offensive pedigree and potential. Kid had the highest PPG of any forward in his draft class, right? Sometime like that. While his skating will likely prevent him from ever being an elite offensive player at the NHL level, he has a ton of skill, he sees the ice well, and he has a very good shot. I don't think a 60-70 point projection is over-the-top at all, and if he pulls that off, plus plays elite-level defense, he will be an invaluable piece.

In terms of value-comparison, Kesler would seem a whole heck of a lot closer than Malhotra.

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11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #141
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There's no doubt in my mind he has the ability to produce offensively, but knocking Gardiner because he wasn't given defensive responsibilities is about as logical as knocking Couturier who wasn't given offensive ones.

Both performed admirably in the role they were given, and have yet to prove themselves on the opposite end of the ice.

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11-03-2012, 06:38 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Couturier was not the best defensive forward on the Flyers.
That's not true, at all

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11-04-2012, 12:01 AM
  #143
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That's not true, at all
Hmm, so the advanced statistics prove all for Gardiner, but not for Couturier? Odd how that works.

Fact is, even ignoring the advanced statistics you used which prove you wrong (which was my point), if he was the best defensive player for the flyers, he would have been played more, regardless of age.


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11-04-2012, 12:08 AM
  #144
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Being sheltered doesn't mean you never see top opposition, Whydidijoin. With shifts happening so regularly, and so fluidly in the game, that's an unrealistic expectation.
He saw top opposition quite often, not just on line changes. And he played in key situations, and ES, PP, and PK. And excelled in every scenario. I guess we have different ideas of "sheltered minutes".

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11-04-2012, 01:34 AM
  #145
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My team was the one who drafted Gardiner. You don't think I know exactly what Gardiner was when he was drafted? Gardiner being a project doesn't mean Couturier is going to just stop improving. That's a pretty poor argument. Couturier is 19 years old. How many forwards can you name who just stopped improving at 19? Bringing up Luke Schenn really doesn't prove your point, since he was a defenseman who many would say was rushed.
From your post I quoted I wouldn't know that.

I never said that Coutourier is going to stop improving, I said different players develop at different rates...just because Coutourier is younger that doesn't automatically mean he has greater upside.

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11-04-2012, 05:48 AM
  #146
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From your post I quoted I wouldn't know that.

I never said that Coutourier is going to stop improving, I said different players develop at different rates...just because Coutourier is younger that doesn't automatically mean he has greater upside.
For the love of god, It's Couturier

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11-04-2012, 09:23 AM
  #147
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If Toronto added at least one bad-decent prospects to this trade, I could see it going through.

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11-04-2012, 09:38 AM
  #148
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Hmm, so the advanced statistics prove all for Gardiner, but not for Couturier? Odd how that works.

Fact is, even ignoring the advanced statistics you used which prove you wrong (which was my point), if he was the best defensive player for the flyers, he would have been played more, regardless of age.
I'm not sure what you are saying, to be honest.

Pretty much all anyone used advanced stats for here was to show that Gardiner did not play against the toughest competition, got quite a few offensive zone starts, etc.

Check out those numbers for Couturier...

Besides, all anyone said re: Couturier was that he was the Flyers best defensive forward. You've literally not offered a single argument, substantiated or otherwise, to dispute that.... If he wasn't, who was?


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11-04-2012, 09:57 AM
  #149
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While his skating will likely prevent him from ever being an elite offensive player at the NHL level, he has a ton of skill, he sees the ice well, and he has a very good shot. I don't think a 60-70 point projection is over-the-top at all, and if he pulls that off, plus plays elite-level defense, he will be an invaluable piece.
See, and this is where I disagree with others when it comes to Couturier. He's a very good skater. He might not be a burner, but he can certainly skate. The way people talk about Couturier, you'd think he was Michal Handzus in terms of skating ability.

Couturier's skating style was a little awkward when he first arrived. However, I suggest people watch some Adirondack games and see just how much his skating has improved. He's so strong on his feet and more important, he has a very strong stride. He's a lot like Primeau in the sense that Keith wasn't the fastest of skaters either, but when they bull rush, there's nothing that can really stop them. That's what Couturier is like.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the whole notion that Couturier's skating will hold him back from being an elite forward is a little far fetched. There have been other elite forwards in the league that have been worse skaters than Couturier, so I really don't think skating will be what holds him back. I think it will be the role that Laviolette uses him in in Philadelphia that will hold him back (although I see Laviolette eventually using Couturier as the top line center with Giroux and Schenn flanking him on the wings).

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11-04-2012, 12:38 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Hmm, so the advanced statistics prove all for Gardiner, but not for Couturier? Odd how that works.

Fact is, even ignoring the advanced statistics you used which prove you wrong (which was my point), if he was the best defensive player for the flyers, he would have been played more, regardless of age.
I don't care about any statistics. I watched every single game that Couturier played last year. He was by and far the best defensive forward on the team. It's a widely accepted fact

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