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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:14 PM
  #451
JAX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Novacane View Post
Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland

#NHL informed #NHLPA last week they're prepared to come off stance on certain issues. Are we seeing signs of NHL finally ready to negotiate?


Andy Strickland ‏@andystrickland

Several players on #NHLPA conf. call encoraging PA to not push #NHL away and to engage the league
Right....because so far it's been the PA who has been doing all the negotiating.....

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11-03-2012, 04:15 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
How can anyone not enjoy Walsh's twitter feed? He's like the drunk uncle at this wedding.
Hahaha, well put. Must be losing sleep over the mortgage of his summer home in the Shuswap or something, he's more worked up over this than anyone.

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11-03-2012, 04:16 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by JAX View Post
Right....because so far it's been the PA who has been doing all the negotiating.....
Both sides are negotiating, they're just more patient about it than we are.

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11-03-2012, 04:18 PM
  #454
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Not doing anything, if it results in movement from the other side IS negotiating.

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11-03-2012, 04:18 PM
  #455
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Since it seems we are allowed to post ridiculous conspiracy theories, I have one. Fehr has constructed this whole lockout just so people would not pay attention to the lowest television rated world series in history.


Did you see what I did?

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:18 PM
  #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DocBrown View Post
So you do acknowledge the NHLPA leaked this story to Dreger?

Dreger's tweet:

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger For the record, it was a player related source who provided the tip and the NHL reluctantly confirmed the story just before 6pm Fri.


"player related"

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:20 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by DocBrown View Post
I didn't say Fehr, I said NHLPA, but allow me to be more general, do you acknowledge the source that leaked the story was associated with the NHLPA, and was not an NHL source?
... not so much. Tangled Torontocentric web. Your aware he's related (cousin) to Dave Nonis, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
If the league had THAT level of manipulative skill the players would all be living in communal apartments and being paid gas money. It's ridiculous on the face of it.
See above. Your not just dealing with the NHL's subversive activities, your dealing with 29 separate field branches of KAOS Inc. Dont kid yourself. These are dark waters. You can Bet Your Bippy "stuff" is being planted by everyone who's anyone in Hi-Lo Country.... and no, Im not wearing a tinfoil cap.

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:21 PM
  #458
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No, not at all.

Bettman's ego has also been implicated numerous times over the decades on the issues he manages, but in the end, I think he's doing the job he's paid to do as best as he can. So is Fehr. They are representing their constituents' (all of them) best interests.
False in the case of Fehr: the best inerests of the players should be to maximize income. With an average career of less than 6 seasons the majority of nhl players will never recover earnings from even a quarter of a season lost even if the nhl bent to the PA's latest demands...let alone the real possibility that the entire season is lost.

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11-03-2012, 04:25 PM
  #459
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Again, I challenge someone to come up with a realistic CBA that would benefit players so much that they could recoup even half a season of lost wages - nevermind a full season.

If you can't do that, Fehr is not looking out for the player's best interests.

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11-03-2012, 04:26 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Show me where I said any of this. Don't lower yourself to fabrication, Doc.
A poster I very much admire once said "How else am I to interpret this?"


Quote:
(And that does mean I don't believe Dreger is lying, but is passing along something he picked up. Just like Kypreos.)
Are you saying his NHLPA source is out to lunch then and fabricated the info on the deal? More explanation in your post would lead to less misinterpretation......cuz to me it implied dreger believed the original source was nhlpa because someone told him it was that wasn't nhlpa. I'm unclear on how else to read this?

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11-03-2012, 04:26 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... not so much. Tangled Torontocentric web. Your aware he's related (cousin) to Dave Nonis, right?



See above. Your not just dealing with the NHL's subversive activities, your dealing with 29 separate field branches of KAOS Inc. Dont kid yourself. These are dark waters. You can Bet Your Bippy "stuff" is being planted by everyone who's anyone in Hi-Lo Country.... and no, Im not wearing a tinfoil cap.
So.....Dave Nonis is a "player related" source? Or he knows one? Or he knows someone who knows someone who knows one? Or knows someone whose best friend's aunt's hairdresser's cousin's chihuahua walker's ex-fiancé's podiatrist is a "player related" source, and has the power to make them talk at EXACTLY the right time for spin purposes?

There's always a chihuahua involved.

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11-03-2012, 04:30 PM
  #462
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NHLPA knows while the classic is "canceled", they could save it very easily if they make a deal in the next week. Or at least get the main parts of it done and get the classic back on track.

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11-03-2012, 04:32 PM
  #463
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Not doing anything, if it results in movement from the other side IS negotiating.
Yes, it's no secret that Fehr's master plan is to stall but that doesn't mean he can't come up with proposals and present them. If the league won't negotiate off them then he can continue to posture but so far he really hasn't done squat to show he wants to get a deal done.

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:35 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
NHLPA knows while the classic is "canceled", they could save it very easily if they make a deal in the next week. Or at least get the main parts of it done and get the classic back on track.
So how come the NHL says even if a deal was made the next week the 2013 Winter Classic is still cancelled.

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:36 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Not doing anything, if it results in movement from the other side IS negotiating.
Not if everyone in the world can already see the outcome. If the ultimate outcome is a linked soft landing 54 52 50 50 or something of the sort, this whole plan of inaction was a waste because it resulted in a de facto rollback of player salaries.

Seriously, any one of us could go in there right now and negotiate a linked soft landing. We could probably get movement on the FA terms as well.

Does Fehr think that sometime in December the NHL will just completely cave and get rid of the cap? I think you guys are giving him too much credit here - his tactics worked to a point but now I think he's overextended and he knows it. Goodenow was a good leader too and got the NHLPA a lot of gravy train years, but in the face of actual owner solidarity he didn't have a plan B either.

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11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Again, I challenge someone to come up with a realistic CBA that would benefit players so much that they could recoup even half a season of lost wages - nevermind a full season.

If you can't do that, Fehr is not looking out for the player's best interests.
This CBA doesn't just affect the players currently in the league; it affects every future CBA down the line from here on out. The worse the deal they eventually agree upon is for the players, the worse the deal after that will be.

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11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
So how come the NHL says even if a deal was made the next week the 2013 Winter Classic is still cancelled.
Because the NHL likes to make money??

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11-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #468
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Originally Posted by DocBrown View Post
A poster I very much admire once said "How else am I to interpret this?"


Are you saying his NHLPA source is out to lunch then and fabricated the info on the deal? More explanation in your post would lead to less misinterpretation......cuz to me it implied dreger believed the original source was nhlpa because someone told him it was that wasn't nhlpa. I'm unclear on how else to read this?
I don't think Dreger is lying. I don't believe he fabricated any of it. I pulled up his tweet that said a 'a player related' source.

I think you're trying to extrapolate based on what -->you<-- think I might say, not paying attention to what I actually AM saying. I just like to be held accountable for what I posted, not someone's extrapolation, "Oh, did you mean ______". NO, if I had meant _____, why wouldn't I have said it. I am not challenged when it comes to writing, usually rather succinctly in intent in spite of the quantity.

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11-03-2012, 04:44 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
So how come the NHL says even if a deal was made the next week the 2013 Winter Classic is still cancelled.
The only reason to think this wouldn't be the case is the NHL said that last offer was their best offer, now they allegedly offered this new thing we're talking about. So, if the NHL is always lying about not giving anything better, then one can assume the Winter Classic could be saved. Every day there is no deal, the less likely that would ever be the case though.

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Old
11-03-2012, 04:45 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Hammman View Post
This CBA doesn't just affect the players currently in the league; it affects every future CBA down the line from here on out. The worse the deal they eventually agree upon is for the players, the worse the deal after that will be.
No. You negotiate a CBA for a reason. Again, if the league is healthier next go-round, the owners will have no incentive to lose games and revenue. This time, their incentive is not as dire as 2005, but they do have plenty of incentive as a collective to try to get back to at least break-even.

This whole 'lockout to end lockouts' thing is asinine. First of all, it's stupid financially.

Second of all, they say they will take 50/50 with contracts being honoured - so they've already thrown future players under the bus.

Third, this lockout creates no precedence whatsoever for the next one. The financial situation at that time is completely uncertain. So it MIGHT prevent another clawback. Or it might not. And you're going to sacrifice 25% of your income for something that will MAYBE benefit future players?

Things that would actually benefit future players would be the free agency limits. Yet the NHLPA hasn't mentioned any of them in their proposals so far. Again, future players my butt.

If the players wanted to strike in 2017 or whatnot because at that time the NHL had become a huge juggernaut on the NA sports stage, I would wholly support that.

Someone come up with something better.

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11-03-2012, 04:46 PM
  #471
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Because the NHL likes to make money??
So what about all that talk how the Red Wings don't want to rush the events they had planned that whole week leading up to the Winter Classic.

Plus the AHL moved the Toronto/Grand Rapids game to December 29th and it won't be taking place anymore at Comerica Park.

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11-03-2012, 04:48 PM
  #472
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Originally Posted by CpatainCanuck View Post
False in the case of Fehr: the best inerests of the players should be to maximize income. With an average career of less than 6 seasons the majority of nhl players will never recover earnings from even a quarter of a season lost even if the nhl bent to the PA's latest demands...let alone the real possibility that the entire season is lost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Again, I challenge someone to come up with a realistic CBA that would benefit players so much that they could recoup even half a season of lost wages - nevermind a full season.

If you can't do that, Fehr is not looking out for the player's best interests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammman View Post
This CBA doesn't just affect the players currently in the league; it affects every future CBA down the line from here on out. The worse the deal they eventually agree upon is for the players, the worse the deal after that will be.

Fehr has to represent the interest of professional hockey players bargaining with the NHL. As such, he represents an entity that values and wants certain things. At this point in time, from their messages, I would glean that those things are:

*50/50 split of current HRR definition as long as the legacy contracts are honored
*As few restrictions and take-backs on things important to every single player in his attempt to maximize his career earnings and potential, ergo contract term limits, UFA age, ELC and arbitration matters.

It's not just about the figures this year (mossey), it's about the ability of each player who has yet to negotiate a new contract to do so under as few restrictions and income-suppressing options as possible ----- within the constraints of a cap system.

As the owners have their cap and cost certainty, they shouldn't care one iota about the other things--- as a group.

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11-03-2012, 04:51 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Hammman View Post
This CBA doesn't just affect the players currently in the league; it affects every future CBA down the line from here on out. The worse the deal they eventually agree upon is for the players, the worse the deal after that will be.
Oh please, the players don't care one bit about future generations, else they wouldn't have made the offers they made.

Beyond that, the percentage of revenue players get is largely irrelevant to future generations, as long as the actual numbers go up. 50% of 4 billion is still more than 57% of 3.3. So a "worse" deal doesn't really have to actually be worse. The last CBA was far from bad for the players, on the contrary, they couldn't have asked for a much better one, and that was rather obvious from the get go.

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11-03-2012, 04:52 PM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Dreger's tweet:

Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger For the record, it was a player related source who provided the tip and the NHL reluctantly confirmed the story just before 6pm Fri.


"player related"
Could even have been an agent.

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11-03-2012, 04:52 PM
  #475
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Could even have been an agent.

Very true. It's not like agents didn't butt in last time.

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