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Several notable prospects but little depth in Vancouver Canucks' system

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Old
11-01-2012, 05:57 PM
  #51
dave babych returns
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
That's the big difference between what Gillis is doing with those picks and what Nonis did. Gillis is getting years of mileage out of them. He's also getting players that he can get under contract for reasonable money.
Sure. Gillis is making the trade off repeatedly and he is doing it pretty well. Nonis did it terribly.

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This is really where we disagree, I don't like the odds of the lottery and I've really liked the immediate payout and long term potential of the players we've acquired.
Alberts? Ballard? Gillis hasn't done it all perfectly and you have to come close when you are passing up a shot at a much more valuable outcome.

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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
IMO the mistake Gillis made with Bernier was not trading a 2nd and 3rd for him, it was pissing off St.Louis and getting him offer sheeted. Bernier is an idea 4th liner imo, very physical, and unlike Weise and Glass, he doesn't look out of place on a 3rd line in a pinch. Had Gillis kept his salary under control like he has with other players, we could still be getting milage out of that deal.
So you would have been happy spending a 2nd and 3rd round pick on a fourth liner who is decent on the third line?

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Alberts is a good player imo, I'm not sure people understand how hard the job is. Not only are you not playing games, but the Canucks regularly go without practising for stretches throughout the season. Can you imagine going from skating with a few guys and a coach to playing an NHL game?
Sure, I'm not saying Alberts can't be an NHL player but he's clearly not as good as say Aaron Rome who we picked up for nothing. He's probably not as good as several other guys who hit free agency every year. It's a tough job and Alberts hasn't been a disaster (since his first year here) but he also has not been even slightly better than the kinds of guys you could get for nothing to fill the same role.

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People loved that Ballard deal at the time, I didn't. Still can be salvaged imo.
Well like I said, I get the deal under the circumstances. It was costly but I get it. The trouble is if there are too many of those types of deals that don't work out. There haven't been with Mike Gillis to this point.

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Originally Posted by MS View Post
Simple fact is that when you’re a contending team, you have to make these sorts of deals to maximize the depth on your NHL roster.

The thing I like that Gillis has done is that he’s (generally) spent these picks on players who we were able to maintain under team control, as opposed to 20-game rentals. A 2nd-3rd rounder for 20 games from an average player isn’t a great return. A 2nd-3rd rounder for 2-3 seasons from an average player is a great return.
Yeah. I agree.

In my original post I pointed to the Canucks regular season finishes as the source of our lack of prospect depth, not because of the draft position that results but because of exactly what you're talking about: the pressure to contend year in and year out, and Mike Gillis correctly identified quality NHL depth as the thing this team was missing to achieve that.

Kudos to him for doing that and kudos to him for getting as much value out of those types of depth acquisitions as possible.

That being said - he's going to have to do better generating depth through free agency and through his draft selections if he ever hopes to slow down his rate of unloading draft picks to resolve issues with the Canucks roster.

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11-01-2012, 05:59 PM
  #52
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Even in hindsight the only pick that Gillis made that really looks bad in my eyes was Sauve. I was never really high on the guy, and looking back there was still a ton of NHL talent on the board. Schultz, Stepan, Scandella, Henrique, Zack Smith...

Overall I think he's done a really good job drafting. Just needs to start hanging onto more picks now that the roster is pretty much filled out.

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11-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
I disagree with this assessment.

Our draft pool is victim of putrid Western Canadian scouting and a completely lost 2007 draft. It hurts to look at that 2007 draft or our record in drafting (or signing) WHL players.

Having no picks in the top 90 of the 2010 draft hasn't helped much either. Same with the Bourdon/Kopitar pick (I liked Luc, but Kopitar at the time was the obvious choice—this is something MG has done with the Hodgson, Schroeder and Gaunce picks, snatched the guys who have fallen a bit from where they were expected).
You could at least let the Kopitar complaining go away now that Bourdon has been dead for years.

at least switch to White/Perron.

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11-01-2012, 07:02 PM
  #54
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[QUOTE=serge2k;55447967]You could at least let the Kopitar complaining go away now that Bourdon has been dead for years.

at least switch to White/Perron.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't Patrick White the young stud we traded for Ehrhoff.
That pick was bad the moment Nonis announced it. Even the TSN panel was scrambling to explain that one.

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11-01-2012, 08:53 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
Well, I took me2's post to mean that "elite" means something along the lines of a Brendan Gaunce or a Brandon Saad kind of prospect.. ie. clearly a top prospect (if not the top prospect) in their organization, although certainly not one of the top five to ten overall.

(If me2's post was suggesting that we just need 2-3 Yakupov/Huberdeau/Hamilton calibre prospects that would be simply ridiculous.)
That is kind of what I am suggesting and kind of not. It's going to be very hard for us to get those kind of star prospect at our draft position but when you do find them they make your depth look better even though they are only one player. It's kind of an optics thing, it's hard to explain my thinking on this, I'll try this way: think of a food pyramid



If you are missing the tip of the food pyramid it looks much shorter yet the vast majority of the pyramid is still there. Our prospect pool is "most of the pyramid" and missing just the top piece. I think we have the depth part of the pyramid covered OK, we just don't have any chips, cookies and sweets.

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11-01-2012, 11:34 PM
  #56
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It makes sense. It's like on an NHL roster, you can have a great fourth, third and second line but if you have no legit first line players then what you really have is a poor first line (comprised of good second liners), a poor second line (comprised of good third liners) and so on.

Adding a player or two at the top pushes everyone else down into positions where they look better by comparison.

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11-02-2012, 12:13 AM
  #57
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I don't understand how Buffalo's scouting performs so much better than ours, and they only use video? At least that's what I've heard in the past. They have a smaller staff than we do too, I think. Do most of our scouts just suck?

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11-02-2012, 12:19 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
I don't understand how Buffalo's scouting performs so much better than ours, and they only use video? At least that's what I've heard in the past. They have a smaller staff than we do too, I think. Do most of our scouts just suck?
Buffalo probably doesn't have an entire division of scouts that has been less than useless for the past decade+

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11-02-2012, 12:19 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Lord of Bones View Post
I dont remember Giroux being as obvious a pick as the other 3 from where we drafting though.

The other 3 seemed like no brainers to everyone except Nonis.
At least with Gillis at the helm, you *know* we're not going to pass up on the obvious picks, unlike Nonis...

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11-02-2012, 12:22 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
Buffalo probably doesn't have an entire division of scouts that has been less than useless for the past decade+
Haha, that may well be so. Trouble is, for lots of picks we don't know who was credited with identifying who, who made what recommendations etc. I can only hope MG's keeping tabs on his guys, and after a period of time - say 5 years - he'll start cleaning out the junk.

I will say though - the WHL is probably the most glaring problem, and not just because we haven't picked from there in years. When you recommend a guy like S. Schneider who has pretty much no NHL upside, you have to wonder just what on earth the guy was thinking...

The Q is also looking iffy... happy about the OHL though.

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11-02-2012, 12:35 AM
  #61
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Haha, that may well be so. Trouble is, for lots of picks we don't know who was credited with identifying who, who made what recommendations etc. I can only hope MG's keeping tabs on his guys, and after a period of time - say 5 years - he'll start cleaning out the junk.

I will say though - the WHL is probably the most glaring problem, and not just because we haven't picked from there in years. When you recommend a guy like S. Schneider who has pretty much no NHL upside, you have to wonder just what on earth the guy was thinking...

The Q is also looking iffy... happy about the OHL though.
OHL + NCAA and SEL seem to be the only leagues we're drafting out of recently, with a spattering of Q players. Drafted 1st round OHLers in three straight drafts, then we go to a random Q or SEL 2nd round.

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11-02-2012, 02:35 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
OHL + NCAA and SEL seem to be the only leagues we're drafting out of recently, with a spattering of Q players. Drafted 1st round OHLers in three straight drafts, then we go to a random Q or SEL 2nd round.
Canucks haven't drafted from the NCAA in 3 years.

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11-02-2012, 03:33 AM
  #63
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Canucks haven't drafted from the NCAA in 3 years.
Labate

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11-02-2012, 05:04 AM
  #64
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Canucks haven't drafted from the NCAA in 3 years.
I'm counting players committed to the NCAA as well.

Myron, Hutton, Price, Connauton, Cannata, McNally, LaBate, Shroeder, White, Matson.

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11-02-2012, 02:01 PM
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Canucks haven't drafted from the NCAA in 3 years.
Going to NCAA is the same thing. Many guys get drafted BEFORE they start college.

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11-02-2012, 02:35 PM
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Wendell Young's brother Darrell does most Q scouting from what I can tell and he is absolutely brutal.

Also, a way disproportionate amount of his picks have come from Halifax, his home turf. Given the franchise's relative lack of success and production of future NHL talent, I think this is inexcusable. I don't know if it's laziness or just some kind of weird bias from seeing these guys play more, but his track record is atrocious. What's worse is in the case of Grenier, despite how poor his picks have been, they still seem to defer to him for major picks. Big problem.

He should be the first to go before anyone.

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11-02-2012, 03:26 PM
  #67
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So you would have been happy spending a 2nd and 3rd round pick on a fourth liner who is decent on the third line?
Getting a player that helps the team for 4, 5, 6 years out of a 2nd and 3rd is a good deal. The chance those picks do that are very, very low.

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11-02-2012, 11:10 PM
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I'm counting players committed to the NCAA as well.

Myron, Hutton, Price, Connauton, Cannata, McNally, LaBate, Shroeder, White, Matson.
Those players will come from a variety of regions, though. Canadian tier II leagues, prep schools, USHS, and then the guys from actual NCAA schools. I don't know that you can lump them all under one umbrella, scouting-wise. Does a kid in the bchl get followed by the same scouts as a kid playing in new jersey, just because they're both committed to the Iowa School of Basket Weaving?

Was Mason Raymond, for example, a result of the western Canadian scouting, or do the NCAA guys get credit just because he ended up going there? Do we actually know who was doing the lifting in that situation?


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11-03-2012, 03:37 AM
  #69
vanuck
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Originally Posted by Jay Cee View Post
Wendell Young's brother Darrell does most Q scouting from what I can tell and he is absolutely brutal.

Also, a way disproportionate amount of his picks have come from Halifax, his home turf. Given the franchise's relative lack of success and production of future NHL talent, I think this is inexcusable. I don't know if it's laziness or just some kind of weird bias from seeing these guys play more, but his track record is atrocious. What's worse is in the case of Grenier, despite how poor his picks have been, they still seem to defer to him for major picks. Big problem.

He should be the first to go before anyone.
Interesting... wonder how long he's been around? Surely though someone in the organization must have a record of his recommendations. Who have we taken from Halifax in the past, btw?

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11-03-2012, 10:21 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
Even in hindsight the only pick that Gillis made that really looks bad in my eyes was Sauve. I was never really high on the guy, and looking back there was still a ton of NHL talent on the board. Schultz, Stepan, Scandella, Henrique, Zack Smith...
Sauve was actually looking pretty good IMO, but Sauve was run over by a car and has not been the same.

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11-03-2012, 03:49 PM
  #71
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Sauve was actually looking pretty good IMO, but Sauve was run over by a car and has not been the same.
Shoulda picked the car.

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11-03-2012, 04:18 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
Sauve was actually looking pretty good IMO, but Sauve was run over by a car and has not been the same.
Umm Sauve was hit by a car crossing Burrard during training camp one year (I think it was last year?) but that isn't the reason for his regression. I don't even think he's regressed that much to be honest...he's looked like he could be a capable bottom pairing or number 7 defenseman for a while.

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11-03-2012, 04:35 PM
  #73
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That offer was a rookie mistake, it had no chance of working.
The OS had no chance of working because it was for an average of $2.5 million per season, netting the Blues only a 2nd round pick in return. Had Gillis upped the offer to an average salary that required a 1st and 3rd round pick as compensation, he might have had a shot of landing Backes. But, that would have required a deal that averaged over $3 million per season.

Like the Kesler OS from Philly, a 2nd rounder for a big young center isn't enough of a return. Pick is for the following draft, plus that pick is going to take 3-5 years to develop into an NHL. So, Kesler/Backes would have between 4-6 years in the NHL before the pick sees the ice. What GM is going to allow that to occur on their watch?

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11-03-2012, 06:28 PM
  #74
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Like the Kesler OS from Philly, a 2nd rounder for a big young center isn't enough of a return.
Think the situation was different with Kesler. Center depth was far more important for the Canucks at that time than winger depth for the Blues at that time.

Look who we had beyond an aging Morrison at center - just Hank. Then you take a HUGE dropoff in talent/prospect talent after Kesler (eg., guys like Matt Butcher).

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11-03-2012, 07:05 PM
  #75
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Think the situation was different with Kesler. Center depth was far more important for the Canucks at that time than winger depth for the Blues at that time.

Look who we had beyond an aging Morrison at center - just Hank. Then you take a HUGE dropoff in talent/prospect talent after Kesler (eg., guys like Matt Butcher).
It's no wonder people doubt our scouting staff with gems like these guys..

Our scouting has been our achille's heel for decades.

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