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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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Old
10-31-2012, 10:34 AM
  #526
Gooch
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
Fehr doesn't get it. He is never going to convince a sane person that 50-50 is unfair. The league wants him to negotiate off the stance that 50-50 now is in the cards. I'm wondering if Fehr ends up getting the heave-ho is what has to happen for a deal to be struck.

Any guy like that that thinks baseball's economics are great and detests salary caps. How can the players get someone like that to represent them?
Simple answer, greed. The players have no concern over things like competitive balance in the league. Their primary concern is income and right now Baseball is the single most lucrative league for players. They have guaranteed contracts and ridiculously inflated ones at that. You get the extremes like A-rod's deal for 30+ mil a year but it's fairly commonplace for a solid player to rack up a 100 mill deal in free agency. In hockey it's a monumental deal that raises eyebrows everywhere in the case of Kovalchuk. So to the players it serves their self interest to want a baseball like labor system.

It's just for us fans that's a horrible horrible system that exacerbates the differences in markets and creates hopelessness for those teams who arent located in a big hockey market. The NHL has a vested interest in promoting it's product and parity is something it's concerned with. Making sure that all franchises are able to effectively compete and all fanbases can at least pretend to be in the playoff hunt for a bulk of the season is important. This is always why I don't get how some blindly support the players, their interests do not coincide with your own, you're effectively working against your interests by supporting them. That is unless you're a yankees fan and a leafs fan.

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10-31-2012, 10:49 AM
  #527
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Simple answer, greed. The players have no concern over things like competitive balance in the league. Their primary concern is income and right now Baseball is the single most lucrative league for players. They have guaranteed contracts and ridiculously inflated ones at that. You get the extremes like A-rod's deal for 30+ mil a year but it's fairly commonplace for a solid player to rack up a 100 mill deal in free agency. In hockey it's a monumental deal that raises eyebrows everywhere in the case of Kovalchuk. So to the players it serves their self interest to want a baseball like labor system.

It's just for us fans that's a horrible horrible system that exacerbates the differences in markets and creates hopelessness for those teams who arent located in a big hockey market. The NHL has a vested interest in promoting it's product and parity is something it's concerned with. Making sure that all franchises are able to effectively compete and all fanbases can at least pretend to be in the playoff hunt for a bulk of the season is important. This is always why I don't get how some blindly support the players, their interests do not coincide with your own, you're effectively working against your interests by supporting them. That is unless you're a yankees fan and a leafs fan.
But that's what I don't get. If it's just greed, how is earning nothing at all better than earning 5 million dollars or whatever? I mean I can't imagine that the players think they're all going to get Alex Rodriguez contracts, so what's the point? They will never make up the money they lose now.

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10-31-2012, 03:19 PM
  #528
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But that's what I don't get. If it's just greed, how is earning nothing at all better than earning 5 million dollars or whatever? I mean I can't imagine that the players think they're all going to get Alex Rodriguez contracts, so what's the point? They will never make up the money they lose now.
Probably no point but honestly I don't expect a players union to have a rational thinking process. You'd think they'd listen to guys like Andreychuk, Guerin and Modano. They're not that far removed from the last time where they tried playing hardball and ended up with an even more worse than them deal. If the talk is losing a season then even with a favorable settlement the bulk of the players wont make enough to offset the loss and the few that do it will be by a small amount. That's basically what they're holding us fans hostage for.

This is all on Fehr though, we all knew this was coming when he was hired on. The players likely got riled up at some union meeting and they decided they were going to hire the biggest dbag on the planet to lead them in order for them to get their piece of the pie. You can certainly see how from a pro union player perspective a guy like Donald Fehr is the greatest thing ever. The problem is all the players now have this guy representing them and I think they're going to deal with the reality of their decision as I doubt we have a season and we're going to see some serious losses of money. It won't be as dire as the NFL simply due to the fact that I think hockey players are different with their money than football players are from a cultural standpoint. I don't think hockey players are going game check to game check like a lot of NFL players are so it'll take a while for them to feel the pinch, especially with most working in other leagues for some supplemental income.

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10-31-2012, 03:59 PM
  #529
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Some of Fehr's comments about players being on edge, the play by Bettman with the "50/50", & some retired players talking about how it wasn't worth it...ice hasn't cracked yet but it's getting thinner. Bettman only has to hold 30 some people (I don't know how many teams have more than one owner), where Fehr has to keep hundreds of players together. More so a lot of the owners got where they are through business knowledge. The players are just a lot guys who are good at a sport. If Fehr doesn't get the best deal he can fast it might look really ugly for him in the future.

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10-31-2012, 04:13 PM
  #530
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Some interesting player comments here:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi...1.html?refer=y

To summarize, from Cullen
"Just when it looks like we can make a real run, I'm in the final year of my contract and we're sitting out" & ""I worry that this could be my last chance to play in a Minnesota sweater, and I might not get it,and then who knows? I know how the league works, and it's a young league."

from Faulk (this seems to be a real sign of a guy not very happy with how things are going)
"We're young and new to the league and at a stage where we need games," "I need a season here. It's a tough situation. We stand together as a union, but there's such a variety of players -- guys on the bubble with one-year contracts that need games to play in this league.

"I want this to be a start of a career in the National Hockey League. It's hard not to worry this could do a lot of damage in my career. I need to keep progressing because there's always someone knocking on the door."

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11-02-2012, 01:23 AM
  #531
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Yea, theres slowly some positives coming out:

-players lengthy conference call where no execs. were in on it
-lengthy talks between Daly and S.Fehr
-Sid saying the next 3 weeks are critical
-Aaron Portzline ‏@Aportzline
Have to say, players I spoke with tonight offered little or no details ... but sounded strangely optimistic. #NHLlockout


This may be the time where when they finally sit down cooler heads will prevail and perhaps D.Fehr has brought the players to the forefront to put to bed this myth that he's leading them astray. If the players want a deal done where they may feel the hurt the first few years, he may take a backseat here.

Of course i could be setting myself up for another fall here but it has to turn positive one time, whether that be this weekend/week or the summer of 2013.

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Old
11-02-2012, 03:16 PM
  #532
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pfff there goes the winter classic.

how's this for some total hearsay on another forum there's a guy who says that he heard from the pilot of the bruins owner that there will be no hockey this year.


personally I can't imagine that they don't have hockey this season at all. but I've been saying that if the WC gets shutdown that the chance of losing the whole season goes up dramatically.

However we are coming up on the break in the KHL schedule, this would be convenient time to get those players back to the NHL...

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11-02-2012, 03:25 PM
  #533
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^^^
If that is true, alot of it is due to Fehr. Owners must be very frustrated with the guy and probably feel a season won't be played.

People call this big, but it's really not. The League paid a ton for it and will just pay a ton for it next year. I hope the players view it as a bad sign and get back to the table.

Don Fehr's statement is infuriating to me though:

"The NHL's decision to cancel the 2013 Bridgestone NHL Winter Classic is unnecessary and unfortunate, as was the owners' implementation of the lockout itself," NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr said. "The fact that the season has not started is a result of a unilateral decision by the owners; the players have always been ready to play while continuing to negotiate in good faith. We look forward to the league's return to the bargaining table, so that the parties can find a way to end the lockout at the earliest possible date, and get the game back on the ice for the fans."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...celed/1677529/

I really, really don't like the guy.

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11-02-2012, 03:42 PM
  #534
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I would of bet money that Fehr would have had the players strike right before the Winter Classic, if they were negotiating and playing. I'm getting sick of all his statements, it's just the same regurgitated ******** over and over again.

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11-02-2012, 04:38 PM
  #535
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He would have them strike right before the playoffs started.

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11-02-2012, 05:55 PM
  #536
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According to Dreger, the NHL now offering to pay for the "Make Whole provision" that Fehr was complaining about after the last round of talks. Considered a big concession according to TSN. Talks next week possibly. Hopefully Fehr will now give in on something so we can get this **** done. If they still do not budge / do not take the 50/50 HRR + make whole as starting point, more blame has to be shifted to the players and Fehr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSN
The NHL made a somewhat surprising move this week to urge the NHLPA towards a deal and an end to the lockout. The league amended a proposal made last month to shift the cost of the NHL designed 'make whole' provision from the players share over to the owners side.

The concept of "Make Whole" is a protection plan to cover player salary reduction in dropping the players revenue share from 57% to 50% in year 1 of a new CBA.

The NHL proposal included a deferred payment system which the league is also willing to reconsider when negotiations resume.

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11-02-2012, 06:30 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
According to Dreger, the NHL now offering to pay for the "Make Whole provision" that Fehr was complaining about after the last round of talks. Considered a big concession according to TSN. Talks next week possibly. Hopefully Fehr will now give in on something so we can get this **** done. If they still do not budge / do not take the 50/50 HRR + make whole as starting point, more blame has to be shifted to the players and Fehr.
Dreger is calling out Walsh right now. Apparently this "make whole" stuff was offered up on Tuesday and Dreger is wondering how much the PA knew about this. Walsh of course seems to be dodging, can't tell, I totally blocked him from my twitter feed.

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Old
11-02-2012, 06:36 PM
  #538
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
^^^
If that is true, alot of it is due to Fehr. Owners must be very frustrated with the guy and probably feel a season won't be played.

People call this big, but it's really not. The League paid a ton for it and will just pay a ton for it next year. I hope the players view it as a bad sign and get back to the table.

Don Fehr's statement is infuriating to me though:

"The NHL's decision to cancel the 2013 Bridgestone NHL Winter Classic is unnecessary and unfortunate, as was the owners' implementation of the lockout itself," NHL Players' Association executive director Donald Fehr said. "The fact that the season has not started is a result of a unilateral decision by the owners; the players have always been ready to play while continuing to negotiate in good faith. We look forward to the league's return to the bargaining table, so that the parties can find a way to end the lockout at the earliest possible date, and get the game back on the ice for the fans."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...celed/1677529/

I really, really don't like the guy.
Yeah, I agree. Obviously both sides are a-holes and I wish I could give up on the NHL altogether. I'm the closest I've ever been to not caring, so I guess that's progress. The part about getting the game back on the ice for the fans makes me want to throw up. Neither side cares about the fans. The fans are taken for granted and unfortunately the growth of the game has, once again been stunted. Hard core fans will come back but the one's that were starting to get interested since the last lock out will probably be gone forever. I remember when the last lock out finally ended and I had to go to my local sports bar to catch the Pens game b/c it wasn't televised on my network for some reason. The bar is owned by a former Hershey Bear player who had a couple cups of coffee with the Flyers and it was touted as a hockey bar. I walked in and it was empty with the World Series on every available TV. I asked for the Pens game and the bartender begrudgingly put it on. He announced that hockey would only be shown on that one tv that night. I was irritated that this alleged hockey bar was being so anti hockey, especially when you consider that baseball of all sports was being shown and it's been broken for a long time. I realize now that I understand where they were coming from and if I were a sports bar owner I would probably do the same thing after this one finally ends. I think it's little things like this that will hurt the NHL more than they know over time. There are a lot of people that get introduced to sports they might not normally watch, while drinking at a bar. I can't imagine that my local sports bar is alone in their boycott. I got way too carried away making the point but it's been my first and only post in a really long time so hopefully everyone will bear with my long semi-rant.

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Old
11-02-2012, 11:33 PM
  #539
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The only positive in all this for me is that this Autumn has been too busy at work for me to have been able to actually follow the NHL if it had been on....

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11-03-2012, 12:40 PM
  #540
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Daly and S. Fehr are meeting today at a "double secret location" after talking all week.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=408769

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11-03-2012, 01:04 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Daly and S. Fehr are meeting today at a "double secret location" after talking all week.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=408769


I spend too much money on my TV and cable just to use it for football.

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11-03-2012, 01:28 PM
  #542
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No doubt hashin out the size of the table and an acceptable assortment of doughnuts in the event that real negotiations ever start.

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11-03-2012, 01:46 PM
  #543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Some interesting player comments here:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi...1.html?refer=y

To summarize, from Cullen
"Just when it looks like we can make a real run, I'm in the final year of my contract and we're sitting out" & ""I worry that this could be my last chance to play in a Minnesota sweater, and I might not get it,and then who knows? I know how the league works, and it's a young league."

from Faulk (this seems to be a real sign of a guy not very happy with how things are going)
"We're young and new to the league and at a stage where we need games," "I need a season here. It's a tough situation. We stand together as a union, but there's such a variety of players -- guys on the bubble with one-year contracts that need games to play in this league.

"I want this to be a start of a career in the National Hockey League. It's hard not to worry this could do a lot of damage in my career. I need to keep progressing because there's always someone knocking on the door."
Like Mark Madden says every day, the NHLPA is not a real union. You've got guys with vastly different salaries and ability to get advertisement deals in that union - their goals aren't even slightly similar. You also have a wide range of ages, so each player is very different, but from where I'm sitting I see a "union" where most of the players are going to lose out so that the ones at the top are slightly better off. Madden also pointed out that you can't call it a union because the really good players (if they can) are just hauling off and going to Europe. Talk about solidarity.

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Old
11-03-2012, 02:18 PM
  #544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Some interesting player comments here:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/wi...1.html?refer=y

To summarize, from Cullen
"Just when it looks like we can make a real run, I'm in the final year of my contract and we're sitting out" & ""I worry that this could be my last chance to play in a Minnesota sweater, and I might not get it,and then who knows? I know how the league works, and it's a young league."

from Faulk (this seems to be a real sign of a guy not very happy with how things are going)
"We're young and new to the league and at a stage where we need games," "I need a season here. It's a tough situation. We stand together as a union, but there's such a variety of players -- guys on the bubble with one-year contracts that need games to play in this league.

"I want this to be a start of a career in the National Hockey League. It's hard not to worry this could do a lot of damage in my career. I need to keep progressing because there's always someone knocking on the door."
There it is. A little crack in the ice. Everything from here on out is going to be a loss of leverage for the NHLPA & Fehr. I really don't see how things can get better for them at this point. Some of the lower rung players are losing sympathy for the cause & there are a lot more of them than are Toews in the union.

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11-03-2012, 03:11 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Daly and S. Fehr are meeting today at a "double secret location" after talking all week.

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11-03-2012, 03:37 PM
  #546
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Another piece that points to the NHLPA wanting for the Fehrs to start doing more.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...-proposal.html

Most interesting part of the short article is this:

In a Thursday conference call, the players made it clear they wanted their leadership to do more negotiating.



There just may be a season yet, though I'm still doubtful.

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11-03-2012, 05:55 PM
  #547
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Only if the newly chosen arbitrator and designator of the double-secret location can't bring them to an agreement.


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11-03-2012, 05:57 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Sivek View Post
Another piece that points to the NHLPA wanting for the Fehrs to start doing more.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/opin...-proposal.html

Most interesting part of the short article is this:

In a Thursday conference call, the players made it clear they wanted their leadership to do more negotiating.


There just may be a season yet, though I'm still doubtful.

I think it's correct the loss of the Winter Classic spurred the owners' latest concession (and it's a reasonable one to expect them to make). Hopefully something gets done in the next 1-2 weeks because IMO, after the cancellation of December's games, the next cut will be the rest of the season. They will not cut JAnuary, February individually. It won't be worth it to the owners to hold 1/3 of a season. They'll cancel and go right back to playing hardball this next summer with the threat of canceling part or all of another season (and the players will cave at that point and certainly get worse than what they can right now).

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11-03-2012, 07:13 PM
  #549
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Quote:
Darren Dreger ‏@DarrenDreger

The NHL's verbal offer to absorb some or all of Make Whole was made Tuesday. 3 days ago?? PA wants more detail before getting too excited.
(mentioned earlier in thread)

Ok am I the only one that is utterly infuriated by this? The Winter Classic could have been saved (although one could argue Detroit doesn't want the WC during a shortened season) and we could be well on the way to an agreement right now.

This smacks of Fehr keeping things from the players. How the hell do you not start negotiating in earnest if the offer on the table is 50/50 AND the owners will foot all or a significant % of the make whole provision?

Is the guy paid by the day of the lockout or something?

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11-03-2012, 07:20 PM
  #550
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"I see two trannies shooting at each other."

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