HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk
National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

Sergei Fedorov

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-03-2012, 01:35 PM
  #126
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
I'd say Gretzky's 215 was his personal 3rd/4th best season.
As for Orr, 69-70 takes the cake


I don't think much separates Fedorov's '94 from Gilmour's '93 to be honest.
Well Fedorov has the Hart (The Most Prestigious Individual Award in Hockey - the Gold standard)

The NHL until 1900-1989 was like 95%-99% Canadian league, with no Europeans like the Russians and defensive systems and goaltending styles.

The league changed forever historically (GPG's and PPG's) during the mid-late 90's with the rise of the Europeans became the standard ever since.

Bobby Orr's best season would equate to 20-30 goals and 70-80 points in today's game. The NHL only has maybe 3/5 to 3/4 of the "Best Talent" in the world last year, and the rest filled with scrubs.

Ice Time and Money speaks along with Family and Playing in your own Country, that's the truth from a non bias hockey Fan from Canada like the majority here.


Last edited by Stars23*: 11-03-2012 at 01:46 PM.
Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 01:44 PM
  #127
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Well Fedorov has the Hart (thr most prestigious Individual Award in Hockey - the Gold standard) and The NHL until the from 1900-1989 was like 95%-99% Canadian league, with no Europeans like the Russians and defensive systems and goaltending styles.

The league changed forever historically (GPG and PPG) during the mid-late 90's with the rise of the Europeans became the standard ever since.

Bobby Orr's best season would equate to 20-30 goals and 70-80 points in today's game. The NHL only has maybe 3/5 to 3/4 of the "Best Talent" in the world last year, and the rest filled with scrubs.

Ice Time and Money speaks along with Family and Playing in your own Country, that's the truth from a non bias hockey can from Canada like the majority here.
This is some of the most unfounded arguments I have ever heard.

Go look at the 1993-94 season in particular, the 10th leading scorer in the NHL had 99 Pts.

I would say that 1993-94 in particular was quite comparable to the 70's in terms of GPG and PPG averages.

Fedorov's season was great but nowhere near as great as you seem to think. It;s maybe a top 30 season at best.

livewell68 is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 01:46 PM
  #128
Stansfield*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Well Fedorov has the Hart and The NHL until the from 1900-1989 was like 95%-99% Canadian league, with no Europeans like the Russians and defensive systems and goaltending styles.
You just made those numbers up. Believe it or not, all of Europe was not behind the Iron Curtain. Shocking I know, but it's true. And Russia has been historically weak at goal.

Quote:
The league changed forever historically (GPG and PPG) during the mid-late 90's with the rise of the Europeans became the standard ever since.
NHL GPG has been in flux forever.

Quote:
Bobby Orr's best season would equate to 20-30 goals and 70-80 points in today's game, that's the truth from a non bias hockey can from Canada like the majority here.
More made up numbers.

Stansfield* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 01:53 PM
  #129
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
Making up numbers hahaha the NHL was a 90-95% league until the European arrival in the 1990s

You guys sound like your from the 1960s era of Hockey I get it please - you guy don't need to reply nasty to anyone with an opinion you don't agree with and have 20 posts in a single thread hating, it's lame

Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 02:14 PM
  #130
Stansfield*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Making up numbers hahaha the NHL was a 90-95% league until the European arrival in the 1990s

You guys sound like your from the 1960s era of Hockey I get it please - you guy don't need to reply nasty to anyone with an opinion you don't agree with and have 20 posts in a single thread hating, it's lame
Only 90-95% now? But you said 95-99% before, why the backtracking? Too much hyperbole? The NHL hasn't been +90% Canadian for a long, long time.

Are Kurri, Salming, Stastny, Nilson and Persson, just to name a few, Canadian? Because they were around before the 90's. The Soviet rule countries didn't play in the NHL, but the other ones did.


Last edited by Stansfield*: 11-03-2012 at 02:20 PM. Reason: grammar
Stansfield* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 02:22 PM
  #131
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 5,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
Only 90-95% now? But you said 95-99% before, why the backtracking? Too much hyperbole? The NHL hasn't been +90% Canadian for a long, long time.

Are Kurri, Salming, Stastny, Nilson and Persson just to name a few Canadian? Because they were around before the 90's. The Soviet rule countries didn't play in the NHL, both the other ones did.
The Stastny brothers came from Czechoslovakia which was under the Communist rule and the Soviet oppression was every prevalent then.

I think Stars' main point that someone like Orr would be just a good Karlsson type player in Fedorov's era is laughable.

Orr would have still been head and shoulders better than the rest of the league. I was backing Fedorov up earlier but what I feared has happened.

Fedorov has gone from being vastly underrated to suddenly overrated on here.

He's suddenly being mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Orr?

livewell68 is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 02:27 PM
  #132
Stansfield*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 992
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
The Stastny brothers came from Czechoslovakia which was under the Communist rule and the Soviet oppression was every prevalent then.

I think Stars' main point that someone like Orr would be just a good Karlsson type player in Fedorov's era is laughable.

Orr would have still been head and shoulders better than the rest of the league. I was backing Fedorov up earlier but what I feared has happened.

Fedorov has gone from being vastly underrated to suddenly overrated on here.

He's suddenly being mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Orr?
I know that. Salming was arguably the best Euro dman in the world at one point and he was no where near Orr's level.

Stansfield* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 02:30 PM
  #133
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,004
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You know what else he did? Scored the same number of points as Forsberg, but in 5 fewer games (42 to 47) the very next year. That, itself, doesn't scream "dominant", but he was one of only six players to get Selke votes that year (finished behind Francis, Tikkanen and Otto) and one of only 5 players to get at least a vote for the post season all-star team (finishing behind Francis and Sakic the year Lindros and Zhamnov were all-stars). If Ron Francis' legacy is defined by the level of 2-way play he exhibited while being so productive, we have to recognize Fedorov for having done almost the exact same thing at precisely the exact same time. And heck, maybe Fedorov gets gypped a little bit in '94/95 because it wasn't necessarily the 6 best defensive players on the Selke ballot; it had to be three finalists from the East, and three from the West (due to conference only play).

And then the year after that, he won the Selke (again) AND finished 9th in scoring (like you said). So that's three pretty damn good regular seasons in a row right there.
i don't think Fedorovs 1995 season was that good to be honest. Good but not elite like 1994. Ill admit I I understated what he did in 96. It was a great season. But some people are claiming Fedorov as a top ten player. Does 3 good seasons really make him that great?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I don't care what the "media" thinks.
To me, the most important position on the ice



Different eras. Shabby goaltending.
Go watch the Habs vs. Bruins game (the too many men game is on youtube, I think).
Lafleur is on the ice literally every other shift.
Watch the game winning goal. Most of today's goalies would save that in their sleep.

If you break their game down by skills, I don't see a single thing that Lafleur does that is clearly better.
Your looking at things in an absolute sense. Does Alex Semin have more offensive skills than Bobby Hull on an absolute scale? Yes. But Hull is clearly superior. LaFluer was better than his competition more than Fedorov was. If Fedorov was so skilled and so much better than Lafluer then he would be the won winning all the awards and getting all the point finishes. And don't use the team excuse. Fedorov played on great teams. Defense is important but when the gap is so large offensively I don't think defense can just cover up lack of offense.

King Forsberg is online now  
Old
11-03-2012, 02:52 PM
  #134
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
I'll take Wayne Gretzky's and Steve Yzerman's word over anyone here, I think it carries more weight

Plus Fedorov played as a defense-first center who beat Jagr and Forsberg in PPG in Best on Best International Play (highest you can get)

Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:04 PM
  #135
TheGoldenJet
Registered User
 
TheGoldenJet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
You know what else he did? Scored the same number of points as Forsberg, but in 5 fewer games (42 to 47) the very next year. That, itself, doesn't scream "dominant", but he was one of only six players to get Selke votes that year (finished behind Francis, Tikkanen and Otto) and one of only 5 players to get at least a vote for the post season all-star team (finishing behind Francis and Sakic the year Lindros and Zhamnov were all-stars). If Ron Francis' legacy is defined by the level of 2-way play he exhibited while being so productive, we have to recognize Fedorov for having done almost the exact same thing at precisely the exact same time. And heck, maybe Fedorov gets gypped a little bit in '94/95 because it wasn't necessarily the 6 best defensive players on the Selke ballot; it had to be three finalists from the East, and three from the West (due to conference only play).

And then the year after that, he won the Selke (again) AND finished 9th in scoring (like you said). So that's three pretty damn good regular seasons in a row right there.
Well said...and this goes back to my original point: In 1997-98 his true peak as a game breaker ended with his holdout, IMO, and the stats back it up.

Before the holdout: Great playoffs in 93 (outscored a peak Stevie Y who had 137 regular season points), great season+playoffs 93/94, very good season+great playoffs 94/95, great season 95/96+very good playoffs.

Then a contract dispute in 97/98 after which he never won another award and never placed in the top 10 in points. Missing camp and then 61 games by sitting at the negotiating table takes the edge away from a guy like Fedorov, whose entire game was based on reflexes.

People can say his stats dipped the year before his holdout (96/97) but most forget he spent a good chunk of that season playing as a full time defencemen and came through some injuries. Not to mention Yzerman was placed on the first line with Brendan Shanahan from the start (even though Fedorov had outscored him for 3 years straight at the time) and the Russian 5 being broken up.

I maintain that Fedorov was still one of the best in the world that year (96/97) despite his low regular season total (and then lost a half-step after his 1998 contract dispute), and if one looks closely they can see the proof:

1. Led a stacked Team Russia in scoring in World Cup of Hockey at start of 96/97 season (goes to show he'd dominate on a different team)
2. +29 that season with a good Selke finish despite missing 9 games (his best finishes after that year were +12, +15 and +20)
3. Led the Wings in playoff scoring with 20pts in 20gp in 96/97 despite starting the playoffs on defence against St Louis, and not playing any ES time with Shanahan/Yzerman.

Bottom line, if Fedorov was put on the first line in 96/97 in Detroit (as he would be on most teams), or was traded instead of sitting time out in 1998, he would have had another 2-3 awards in the bag with another 100-200 points to boot. He may not have won his second and third Cups though, so who knows if he would have been happy with that.

TheGoldenJet is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:05 PM
  #136
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
Also wasnt the NHL 4-on-4 until the late 80's on NHL sized ice? Talk about inflation especially with a 90-95% all Canadian league, not as prestigious and you can take that to the bank.

Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #137
kingpest19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,603
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Also wasnt the NHL 4-on-4 until the late 80's on NHL sized ice? Talk about inflation especially with a 90-95% all Canadian league, not as prestigious and you can take that to the bank.
When has the NHL ever been 4 on 4 outside of certain penalty situations?

kingpest19 is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:37 PM
  #138
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
Thats what I heard about the oilers and getting special treatment to allow dominance over weaker competiton (other teams) about the 1970-80s but I grew up watching 90s hockey so I could be mistaken. But hockey before the 1990s have hardly any Europeans and a bunch of Soviet Non-NHL players outplayed Gretzky and Lemieux in the 87 Rendez-Vous and Game 1 and Round Robin Game of the 1987 Canada Cup?

Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:40 PM
  #139
kingpest19
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,603
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Thats what I heard about the oilers and other teams in the 1980s but I grew up watching 90s hockey so I could be mistaken. But hockey before the 1990s have hardly any Europeans and a bunch of Soviet Non-NHL players outplayed Gretzky and Lemieux in the 87 Rendez-Vous and Game 1 and Round Robin Game of the 1987 Canada Cup?
Non-NHL players that were some of the most talented players in the world that also played year round together, not just thrown together for certain things.

kingpest19 is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:44 PM
  #140
Stars23*
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 114
vCash: 500
But we're getting off topic so I will leave t at that. I think in today's game Patrick Kane is a poor man's Fedorov.

Kane has Fedorov-esque style and was crazy exciting and dominant in the past Olympics. Dominated Cananda hard at times and zipped up the ice with swag.

Stars23* is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 03:45 PM
  #141
bleedgreen
Moderator
 
bleedgreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: colorado
Posts: 10,195
vCash: 500
I'm an old fart. 40. One benefit of it is that I've seen a lot of these guys come and go at this point, seen the game change. Different styles...blah blah blah.

I hated fedorov. He was one of the toughest players to watch dissect your team. I watched the mid 90's wings warm up one game, and was truly impressed to watch fedorov and Coffey GLIDE faster and smoother than anyone on the ice. He was the best combination of elite skating, cerebral play, and aggressive offense I've ever seen. Other guys had peices of their offensive game be better but few had this whole package. I've never seen a guy come out of deep turns faster than he went in like this guy did. Ill be accused of being generation biased but I haven't seen anyone in today's game come close to fedorovs level. Crosby is a similar NA styled version but his skating and shot aren't to me in the same category. That early 90's era had such a large group of dominant players that in time they get blurred together and a bit marginalized. He had a ton of amazing competition but I can't think of too many centermen who dominated a game in all zones more than Sergei Fedorov.

bleedgreen is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 05:07 PM
  #142
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
I'd say Gretzky's 215 was his personal 3rd/4th best season.
As for Orr, 69-70 takes the cake


I don't think much separates Fedorov's '94 from Gilmour's '93 to be honest.
Except Gilmour finished 7th in league scoring, 33 points behind Lemieux, and 21 behind second-place Pat LaFontaine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
i don't think Fedorovs 1995 season was that good to be honest. Good but not elite like 1994. Ill admit I I understated what he did in 96. It was a great season. But some people are claiming Fedorov as a top ten player. Does 3 good seasons really make him that great?
It was a 100-point pace (for an 84 game season)... he was 9th in PPG; 14th in overall scoring. He had the 8th-best PPG among forwards; Coffey was nuts that year.

Quote:
Your looking at things in an absolute sense. Does Alex Semin have more offensive skills than Bobby Hull on an absolute scale? Yes. But Hull is clearly superior. LaFluer was better than his competition more than Fedorov was. If Fedorov was so skilled and so much better than Lafluer then he would be the won winning all the awards and getting all the point finishes. And don't use the team excuse. Fedorov played on great teams. Defense is important but when the gap is so large offensively I don't think defense can just cover up lack of offense.
It's not just a matter of offense vs. defense. Consider that in the 70s an 80s, the teams were far more lopsided than in the 90s and more recently. Most of the best players were all on the same team or handful of teams.

Fedorov played against much tougher competition than Lafleur did, much more consistently.

Fedorov was 8th in points during his career, Lafleur was 4th during his. Again, not a huge difference. Fedorov's defense certainly makes up that difference.

pdd is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 05:09 PM
  #143
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
But we're getting off topic so I will leave t at that. I think in today's game Patrick Kane is a poor man's Fedorov.

Kane has Fedorov-esque style and was crazy exciting and dominant in the past Olympics. Dominated Cananda hard at times and zipped up the ice with swag.
Patrick Kane is nothing like Fedorov. He doesn't have the physical power, he doesn't have the heat on his shot, and most notably he doesn't have the defense. Patrick Kane is more like a poor man's Paul Kariya.

pdd is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 05:38 PM
  #144
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 20,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
i don't think Fedorovs 1995 season was that good to be honest. Good but not elite like 1994. Ill admit I I understated what he did in 96. It was a great season. But some people are claiming Fedorov as a top ten player. Does 3 good seasons really make him that great?
No, three great seasons really make him great. The only thing that knocks him down in "rankings" against less talented players from the rest of history is the length of his prime as relates to career value. That's literally all.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 07:20 PM
  #145
hairylikebear
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
 
hairylikebear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Houston
Country: Russian Federation
Posts: 1,900
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Well Fedorov has the Hart (The Most Prestigious Individual Award in Hockey - the Gold standard)

The NHL until 1900-1989 was like 95%-99% Canadian league, with no Europeans like the Russians and defensive systems and goaltending styles.

The league changed forever historically (GPG's and PPG's) during the mid-late 90's with the rise of the Europeans became the standard ever since.

Bobby Orr's best season would equate to 20-30 goals and 70-80 points in today's game. The NHL only has maybe 3/5 to 3/4 of the "Best Talent" in the world last year, and the rest filled with scrubs.

Ice Time and Money speaks along with Family and Playing in your own Country, that's the truth from a non bias hockey Fan from Canada like the majority here.
This is actually a very good point. Would Lafleur have won all of those scoring titles if Kharlamov and Mikhaelov were in the league? I figure they would have stolen at least one, and then the conversation becomes very different between two players who would have had fairly similar accolades.

hairylikebear is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 07:44 PM
  #146
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hairylikebear View Post
This is actually a very good point. Would Lafleur have won all of those scoring titles if Kharlamov and Mikhaelov were in the league? I figure they would have stolen at least one, and then the conversation becomes very different between two players who would have had fairly similar accolades.
Or Bobby Hull, for that matter.

In Fedorov's career, the NHL has been around 60% Canadian. In Lafleur's career it was over 90% Canadian AND the WHA existed.

Fedorov was a dominant forward over a league that had the best Europeans, Americans, and Canadians. Lafleur's NHL was 90+% Canadian and wasn't the only league in town playing for top-end talent. One can make the argument that even in Lafleur's top seasons that Hull was the better player.

pdd is offline  
Old
11-03-2012, 10:25 PM
  #147
hurricanedave
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 142
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
Well Fedorov has the Hart (The Most Prestigious Individual Award in Hockey - the Gold standard)

The NHL until 1900-1989 was like 95%-99% Canadian league, with no Europeans like the Russians and defensive systems and goaltending styles.

The league changed forever historically (GPG's and PPG's) during the mid-late 90's with the rise of the Europeans became the standard ever since.

Bobby Orr's best season would equate to 20-30 goals and 70-80 points in today's game.
The NHL only has maybe 3/5 to 3/4 of the "Best Talent" in the world last year, and the rest filled with scrubs.

Ice Time and Money speaks along with Family and Playing in your own Country, that's the truth from a non bias hockey Fan from Canada like the majority here.
For what it's worth, his adjusted points total for 1970-71 is 129 points. According to http://www.hockey-reference.com/lead...ed_season.html

hurricanedave is offline  
Old
11-04-2012, 12:23 AM
  #148
trentmccleary
Registered User
 
trentmccleary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Alfie-Ville
Posts: 18,668
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Well said...and this goes back to my original point: In 1997-98 his true peak as a game breaker ended with his holdout, IMO, and the stats back it up.

Before the holdout: Great playoffs in 93 (outscored a peak Stevie Y who had 137 regular season points), great season+playoffs 93/94, very good season+great playoffs 94/95, great season 95/96+very good playoffs.

Then a contract dispute in 97/98 after which he never won another award and never placed in the top 10 in points. Missing camp and then 61 games by sitting at the negotiating table takes the edge away from a guy like Fedorov, whose entire game was based on reflexes.

People can say his stats dipped the year before his holdout (96/97) but most forget he spent a good chunk of that season playing as a full time defencemen and came through some injuries. Not to mention Yzerman was placed on the first line with Brendan Shanahan from the start (even though Fedorov had outscored him for 3 years straight at the time) and the Russian 5 being broken up.

Fedorov's offensive peak started and ended with Coffey's presence in Detroit. Outside of those 3 seasons, Fedorov was a good (not great) offensive player in his other 15 seasons.

From the age of 26yo on, after the Dead Puck era had started, he cracked 70+ points once in his last 12 seasons.

trentmccleary is offline  
Old
11-04-2012, 12:49 AM
  #149
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 20,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Fedorov's offensive peak started and ended with Coffey's presence in Detroit. Outside of those 3 seasons, Fedorov was a good (not great) offensive player in his other 15 seasons.

From the age of 26yo on, after the Dead Puck era had started, he cracked 70+ points once in his last 12 seasons.
I see where you're trying to go with that, but when you realize that they never won a Cup while Coffey was there, but won it the very next year after he left (on the strength of Fedorov's team-leading 20 playoff points, and another Selke for his regular season efforts)... Then, as was already discussed, the hold-out seemed to slow him down a bit. Managed to get into form by the playoffs though, and contributed another 20 playoff points to successful Cup defense. Fedorov has just as much individual success and top level play outside of the Red Wing Coffey era as in it, but has more team success outside the Coffey era. Having said that, the end of the Coffey era transitioned into the Lidstrom era, so... not like anyone around there felt like they had "less help", lol.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
11-04-2012, 12:50 AM
  #150
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 50
Sergei Federov is extremely overrated. I can't believe someone would fathom to place him ahead of Jagr. That's just sad.

Kershaw is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.