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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-04-2012, 02:47 AM
  #801
McRib
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Great to see some negotiations with a touch of urgency. It also doesn't surprise me at all that Daly and Steve Fehr are doing the talking. Perhaps it got a bit personal between Bettman and Donald Fehr, which partially led to stalled negotiations.

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11-04-2012, 02:49 AM
  #802
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Sooo... Do we know if the meeting is still going or not?

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11-04-2012, 03:06 AM
  #803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingsfan2965 View Post
Sooo... Do we know if the meeting is still going or not?
Either it ended or Elliotte Friedman went to bed..

Elliotte Friedman ‏@FriedgeHNIC
Bedtime. We may hear more tomorrow, but my bet is both NHL and NHLPA "going dark" tonight because this is a sensitive time in talks

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11-04-2012, 03:39 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
BTW, anyone doubting the above, just go back and read Dregers twitter history from the summer to now. I don't know whether to cry or laugh.
How about instead of asking us all to go back and read 6 months of tweets, you just tell us what you're talking about specifically.

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11-04-2012, 04:29 AM
  #805
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I'm still going with my tinfoil hat theory of Don Fehr's real endgame: 'do really stupid things so my son can come in and rescue the players from the clutches of my lockout hubris like a white knight on a CBA horse'

Seriously. I called it.

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11-04-2012, 04:36 AM
  #806
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Also, I don't know if this appropriate, but it sure was funny:

Dan O'Toole ‏@tsnotoole
Fehr and Daly are still meeting? Lock the door, call up dial-a-bottle, and don't leave until a fight club is started OR a deal is done.

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Old
11-04-2012, 04:55 AM
  #807
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Are they still meeting?

What is there to possibly talk about after like 12 hours

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11-04-2012, 05:07 AM
  #808
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Are they still meeting?

What is there to possibly talk about after like 12 hours
Hopefully a deal to get hockey going by Dec 1

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11-04-2012, 06:00 AM
  #809
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Lebrun tweeted that the meeting ended around 1 am.

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11-04-2012, 06:01 AM
  #810
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun 10min

Steve Fehr and Bill Daly concluded their meeting around 1 am ET last night

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11-04-2012, 06:30 AM
  #811
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Highly unlikely .. But what if a deal is done within 2-3 weeks. How about moving the Winter classic to late January/ early feb..
They should probably look into doing that anyway. Once the college football playoff starts in '14, they've got no chance at anything resembling a decent TV rating in the U.S. on New Year's Day. Very few US markets will watch the Classic over a college football playoff game.

This would be a good way for them to move the Classic and allow them to save some face. I think Feb 1st would be a good date. Right in the heart of winter and virtually no competition from other sports.

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11-04-2012, 06:43 AM
  #812
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This would be a good way for them to move the Classic and allow them to save some face. I think Feb 1st would be a good date. Right in the heart of winter and virtually no competition from other sports.
The Superbowl?

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11-04-2012, 06:47 AM
  #813
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The Superbowl?
That's simple, the superbowl's only fallen on Feb 1st twice in it's history. They could have it the first Saturday in Feb, or last Saturday in January, or even later.

I see your point, they don't want to go up against playoff football at any level. But if they have it on a Saturday during the NFL playoffs, you go up against maybe 1 NFL game, in a different time slot.

Moving it for the lockout would allow the league to say something along the lines of "we moved it for the lockout, and had a better result on a different date, so we'll keep it there" rather than look they they're just giving up going up against NFL/College Football.

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11-04-2012, 07:24 AM
  #814
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Chris Johnston ‏@reporterchris

Bill Daly says his Saturday meeting with Steve Fehr went "on and off for most of the day and covered a lot of ground

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

In terms of undisclosed location where meeting took place, it was in a neutral city (not NY or Tor) and both Daly and S Fehr had to travel

Kevin Allen ‏@ByKevinAllen

From Bill Daly: "We are meeting again early in the week."

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

From Bill Daly: ``We had a series of meetings yesterday and exchanged views on the most important issues separating us. .."

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11-04-2012, 07:29 AM
  #815
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Bet it was Buffalo. More talks the better.

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Old
11-04-2012, 07:29 AM
  #816
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
Bill Daly says his Saturday meeting with Steve Fehr went "on and off for most of the day and covered a lot of ground
"on and off" means either phone calls were made or first aid rendered.

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Old
11-04-2012, 07:42 AM
  #817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RaiderDoug View Post
That's simple, the superbowl's only fallen on Feb 1st twice in it's history. They could have it the first Saturday in Feb, or last Saturday in January, or even later.

I see your point, they don't want to go up against playoff football at any level. But if they have it on a Saturday during the NFL playoffs, you go up against maybe 1 NFL game, in a different time slot.

Moving it for the lockout would allow the league to say something along the lines of "we moved it for the lockout, and had a better result on a different date, so we'll keep it there" rather than look they they're just giving up going up against NFL/College Football.
If they were to move the Winter Classic they would likely move it either the Sunday following the Super Bowl or put it in the Sunday during the bye week before the Super Bowl (current ASG date) and move the ASG to the week after the Super Bowl (which it was played in during the ABC era)

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Old
11-04-2012, 07:45 AM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Ola View Post
I am very sceptical when this is comming from Dreger who officially has become Bettmans errant boy.

Bettman told Fehr they could discuss make whole. What else is new here? But Dreger trying to spin this as NHL moving when they have not, in an attempt to create false hope within the union and get the players frustrated.

Is it me or does Dreger seem to be a tremendous weasel...

BTW, anyone doubting the above, just go back and read Dregers twitter history from the summer to now. I don't know whether to cry or laugh.
he's usually fairly negative in his tweets when it comes to the cba so for him to be a bit more positive is refreshing

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11-04-2012, 07:46 AM
  #819
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
I'm still going with my tinfoil hat theory of Don Fehr's real endgame: 'do really stupid things so my son can come in and rescue the players from the clutches of my lockout hubris like a white knight on a CBA horse'

Seriously. I called it.
I still think no way Fehr let's a deal get done yet. Were looking 11th hr at best when the season is about to be cancelled and a 48 game schedule is on the line. We have another month at least.....call me out on it if I'm wrong.

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11-04-2012, 07:50 AM
  #820
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I'm not so sure about this, I think the players are starting to get upset and wanna play. If there not as dumb as they come off on twitter (Which there is no way they are) I think there putting pressure on Fehr to get something done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAX View Post
I still think no way Fehr let's a deal get done yet. Were looking 11th hr at best when the season is about to be cancelled and a 48 game schedule is on the line. We have another month at least.....call me out on it if I'm wrong.

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11-04-2012, 07:51 AM
  #821
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Tar hell,

read a couple of your posts. Particularly ones that make refrence to negotiations being drawn out and the maximizing $ for both sides.

As I've posted about previously, I doubt the issues that are at the core of there being no agreement have as much to do with who gets what money. Especially once the NHL signaled it's willingness to try on finding a way to make existing contracts "whole".

It was easy for the NHLPA to point to the language in CBA that allowed the NHL to reduce to value of recently negotiated contracts as a method to reduce the actual value of those contracts in any future season.

The PA members could see that as an indication on the NHL clubs not negotiating in 'good faith'. This is a concept deeply ingrained in all contract law. Furthermore, it made the PA believe/understand that after the last CBA negotiation in which the NHL got virtually everything thay wanted with the lockout 'club' that this technigue would continue to e used to bludgeon the PA at every turn.

Add to that, the issues of ELC length, Arbitration, RFA and UFA contracts ane eligibility, and you really have the core issues that are or should be paramount in the PA position.

these players rights issues are the things that unions fight for in every case. For example, giving the NHL the right to make free agency availble to players after 10 years of service in the NHL is tantamount to indentured servitude. The avg. length on an NHL career isn't 10 years. So effectively, virtually no one would get to free agency following that statistic. While the actually of how many players careers are longer that 10 years, the stat shows where the NHL owners hearts and minds are/were.

They wanted absolute control over players that were drafted/signed by teams for what would ostensibly be their entire careers. And excelt for the few top players, they could then dictate salary costs to everyone else. It's nefarious. And whatever you may think of Fehr, he got that, got it right and I believe got the PA members to understand it too.

So if you look at everything that transpired in the negotiations and lockout since from that perspective things make a lot more sense. And the owners, by offering the draconian initial contract allowed Fehr to say, "I told you they didn't want a real agreement and negotiate a fair deal" . PA members who were there during the last lockout would buttress the position statements that the NHL would continue to lock players out as a bargaining tool to further control the players ability to earn a market value. It wouldn't be a free market value.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.

F1

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11-04-2012, 08:00 AM
  #822
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I wonder if the 1am ET was before of after the time change.

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11-04-2012, 08:03 AM
  #823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falconone View Post
Tar hell,

read a couple of your posts. Particularly ones that make refrence to negotiations being drawn out and the maximizing $ for both sides.

As I've posted about previously, I doubt the issues that are at the core of there being no agreement have as much to do with who gets what money. Especially once the NHL signaled it's willingness to try on finding a way to make existing contracts "whole".

It was easy for the NHLPA to point to the language in CBA that allowed the NHL to reduce to value of recently negotiated contracts as a method to reduce the actual value of those contracts in any future season.

The PA members could see that as an indication on the NHL clubs not negotiating in 'good faith'. This is a concept deeply ingrained in all contract law. Furthermore, it made the PA believe/understand that after the last CBA negotiation in which the NHL got virtually everything thay wanted with the lockout 'club' that this technigue would continue to e used to bludgeon the PA at every turn.

Add to that, the issues of ELC length, Arbitration, RFA and UFA contracts ane eligibility, and you really have the core issues that are or should be paramount in the PA position.

these players rights issues are the things that unions fight for in every case. For example, giving the NHL the right to make free agency availble to players after 10 years of service in the NHL is tantamount to indentured servitude. The avg. length on an NHL career isn't 10 years. So effectively, virtually no one would get to free agency following that statistic. While the actually of how many players careers are longer that 10 years, the stat shows where the NHL owners hearts and minds are/were.

They wanted absolute control over players that were drafted/signed by teams for what would ostensibly be their entire careers. And excelt for the few top players, they could then dictate salary costs to everyone else. It's nefarious. And whatever you may think of Fehr, he got that, got it right and I believe got the PA members to understand it too.

So if you look at everything that transpired in the negotiations and lockout since from that perspective things make a lot more sense. And the owners, by offering the draconian initial contract allowed Fehr to say, "I told you they didn't want a real agreement and negotiate a fair deal" . PA members who were there during the last lockout would buttress the position statements that the NHL would continue to lock players out as a bargaining tool to further control the players ability to earn a market value. It wouldn't be a free market value.

Just my opinion, everyone has one.

F1


You realize RFA, UFA, ELC are all about distribution of money being paid out, not the total amount. ATM imo there is too many 22 yr olds that are gettin too high of contracts.

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:13 AM
  #824
Mike Jones
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Originally Posted by albertGQ View Post
I wonder if the 1am ET was before of after the time change.
Does it matter? It was a long meeting and that is a big step in either good or bad directions. At this point this is all we really wanted anyway (Besides an actual deal that is).

One thing I hope is true is this "on and off" thing. I hope there was consultation between people in the room and external principals such as Bettman and The Donald. To me, that reduces the chance that a resulting deal will be stomped on once the work is done.

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11-04-2012, 08:17 AM
  #825
IdealisticSniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertGQ View Post
I wonder if the 1am ET was before of after the time change.
Time doesn't change until 3am.

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