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Make Whole, Not War (CBA & Lockout Discussion) XIX

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Old
11-04-2012, 12:30 PM
  #876
Marc the Habs Fan
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Most interested to see if stuff gets leaked out from this NHLPA call...

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11-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #877
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I don't think amateur psychology profiles of Bettman and Fehr are all that relevant. If there is a deal to be made, Bettman and D.Fehr will help to get it done and not screw it up. I can guarantee that everything Daly and S.Fehr discussed had been approved by Bettman and D.Fehr.

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11-04-2012, 12:34 PM
  #878
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Originally Posted by Canadian Guy View Post
The point is that population on it's own is no way to measure the potential success of a potential second franchise.

I don't remember who said it but it comes down to the Leafs turning things around: the only time a second team in the GTA will be seriously considered is when the Maple Leafs make the playoffs and the biggest revenue getter in the NHL does not feel threatened by another team encroaching in it's territory: no one on the Board of Governors will want a second team in the GTA if they could eat part of the Maple Leafs' revenues.
I agree the population is no way to measure it... that was my point to the guy who suggested it.

The MLSE has no say in if a team goes to the London area (which is ideal imo) because it's out of their "territory" as well as Buffalo's.

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Old
11-04-2012, 12:36 PM
  #879
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Keep it on topic.

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11-04-2012, 12:37 PM
  #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I don't think amateur psychology profiles of Bettman and Fehr are all that relevant. If there is a deal to be made, Bettman and D.Fehr will help to get it done and not screw it up. I can guarantee that everything Daly and S.Fehr discussed had been approved by Bettman and D.Fehr.
That's what I'm saying.

Minus the Dave/Donald stuff..

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11-04-2012, 12:37 PM
  #881
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So, what is the feeling this morning?

Optimism?
Well, as far as i can tell.....they both know where each other stands.

NHL wants to continue business with a 50-50 split
They wants to put something in place to keep the stupid contract (Bonuses, Front-loading, mega long term contract).

Players don't any want any kind of rollback.
And they pretty much want to keep all aspects of last CBA intact (other than the split of HRR)

They both "agreed" that the players will take less HRR in the near future.
They both "agreed" that a bigger revenue-sharing from the teams is needed.
They both "agreed" that the definition of HRR will not change
They both "agreed" about the Drug-testing and medical stuff (supposedly)

And if we believe the reports out there, the NHL also "agreed" to take care of the player's contract with their share in the future......so they seems to have "agreed" that the owners will take care of "honoring contracts"

They have to figure out:

1- If the salary cap will be link with the HRR
2- All rules related to the player's contract (from term, to trade, to minors....)
3- A way to get the teams to the new cap (Amnesty buyouts, % of contract....)

I'm pretty sure they just spoke 10hrs about those things and reports are good so far......

So yeah, i think it's going well right now.
I

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11-04-2012, 12:40 PM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Most interested to see if stuff gets leaked out from this NHLPA call...
I hope not.

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11-04-2012, 12:41 PM
  #883
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Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA negotiating committee conference call, Sunday at 3:30 PM (Eastern). #TSN

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11-04-2012, 12:52 PM
  #884
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA negotiating committee conference call, Sunday at 3:30 PM (Eastern). #TSN
Hopefully good news ( or, should I say no news?) will come from this. With the lack of bad news from yesterday, I suspect if things are quiet after this conference call, things may be on the fast track to being resolved.

If we hear no complaining, I think we may see hockey by Thanksgiving.

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11-04-2012, 12:56 PM
  #885
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Hopefully good news ( or, should I say no news?) will come from this. With the lack of bad news from yesterday, I suspect if things are quiet after this conference call, things may be on the fast track to being resolved.

If we hear no complaining, I think we may see hockey by Thanksgiving.
December 1st. All of november is cancelled already. I don't believe they can go back on that since the cancellation was to allow arenas to schedule other events within that time period.

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11-04-2012, 01:00 PM
  #886
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December 1st. All of november is cancelled already. I don't believe they can go back on that since the cancellation was to allow arenas to schedule other events within that time period.
Agreed. The earliest we could see a game is Dec 1st.

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11-04-2012, 01:01 PM
  #887
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December 1st. All of november is cancelled already. I don't believe they can go back on that since the cancellation was to allow arenas to schedule other events within that time period.
Yes, those games were cancelled but it will be a shortened season and they could start before Dec 1st if they come to an agreement this week.

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11-04-2012, 01:02 PM
  #888
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Yes, those games were cancelled but it will be a shortened season and they could start before Dec 1st if they come to an agreement this week.
Not is other events have already been booked in the arenas. I like your thinking but I feel it's wishful.

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11-04-2012, 01:02 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by wiseonewillis View Post
December 1st. All of november is cancelled already. I don't believe they can go back on that since the cancellation was to allow arenas to schedule other events within that time period.
I dont expect games before December 1st but just cause games are canceled thru November doesnt mean they have to wait until December 1 to start. A new schedule has to be made now regardless, there will be open dates in November to play games if needed. But like I said we are probably at least a week a way from a deal so December 1st is probably the earliest

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11-04-2012, 01:05 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by wiseonewillis View Post
December 1st. All of november is cancelled already. I don't believe they can go back on that since the cancellation was to allow arenas to schedule other events within that time period.
December 1st regular season. Training camps and 2 preseason games in Mid to late November?

Please?

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Old
11-04-2012, 01:06 PM
  #891
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Meedle,

YES I do understand it's about the distribution of $$. I have long believed that the PA was willing to conceed on $$ or % of HRR but the players rights issues, such as ELC, Arb., RFA UFA were much more critical to their willingness to sign an agreement.

The original proposals of the NHL owners while egregous on their face were designed to focus the PA on % of HRR or total $$ while the real issues they wanted was to able to control player movement and value over the life of a players career. I'm wondering why so many here are having difficulty grasping that concept.

Oh well lets hope that the meetings yesterday did focus on the issues of player rights and movement and that there was some constructive movement. If not, well the season is probably lost.
falconone,

This is an interesting idea to me. Can you explain why these things are of importance to the owners?

I ask because if I am an owner, the bottom line is what is important to me - and that really only depends on the HRR% split, right?

thanks

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11-04-2012, 01:09 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
falconone,

This is an interesting idea to me. Can you explain why these things are of importance to the owners?

I ask because if I am an owner, the bottom line is what is important to me - and that really only depends on the HRR% split, right?

thanks
The problem with the expired CBA was that the growth of costs outpaced the growth of revenues.
The owners are looking mechanisms that will slow down player salary growth and they have proposed to do so by putting some restrictions on contracts.

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11-04-2012, 01:16 PM
  #893
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The problem with the expired CBA was that the growth of costs outpaced the growth of revenues.
The owners are looking mechanisms that will slow down player salary growth and they have proposed to do so by putting some restrictions on contracts.
So, mean it's like this:

I own some middle to bottom revenue team.
I can't spend to the cap, but I have a real problem if I end up with a few good players. I can't afford to spend to the cap to keep them, and if I let them go, then I risk losing more fans and more revenue.
So, I favor having control over my players. That way i can stay in the middle of the salary floor/cap, and still have a team with a chance to win, and I can keep my fans.

Is that how this would shake out?


Not sure the PA would like that. It sounds like the owners want a pass on paying the really good guys as much as they are worth. And, every player is going to think he is worth more than he really is....

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11-04-2012, 01:17 PM
  #894
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So if the owners taking on the make whole was what got the negotiations going.... How come the nhlpa didn't ask the NHL if that was possible 2 frigging weeks ago when the nhl clearly showed that were wiling to budge!!!

Argh this pa is a joke.

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11-04-2012, 01:18 PM
  #895
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When players speak to media after conference calls and etc, they are TOLD to do that to spin stories and gain PR. I REALLY hope we hear nothing from the PA conference call today, that in itself would be HUGE progress.

Daly and Fehr agreeing on the same press release is also huge!

keep the momentum going!

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Old
11-04-2012, 01:24 PM
  #896
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA negotiating committee conference call, Sunday at 3:30 PM (Eastern). #TSN
No news before dinner then. But THAT news will be the most important one so far.

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11-04-2012, 01:25 PM
  #897
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So if the owners taking on the make whole was what got the negotiations going.... How come the nhlpa didn't ask the NHL if that was possible 2 frigging weeks ago when the nhl clearly showed that were wiling to budge!!!

Argh this pa is a joke.
NHL waited to use their leverage... Cancelling the Winter Classic
PA waited to use their leverage... Force the NHL to lose a big chunk of revenue by cancelling the Winter Classic...

Both seem to have gotten what they wanted, IMO...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopistar View Post
When players speak to media after conference calls and etc, they are TOLD to do that to spin stories and gain PR. I REALLY hope we hear nothing from the PA conference call today, that in itself would be HUGE progress.

Daly and Fehr agreeing on the same press release is also huge!

keep the momentum going!
I agree, this is a good thing. I also believe that ANYTHING that was discussed between those two are the SAME views that Bettman and D.Fehr share. There is no way either one of those individuals are going over their own superiors head, unless there is some plan to oust both of them from their positions, and I don't see that being the case here...
I mean, think about it. Would you hold a secret meeting with a client, only to tell them about your side company and how you can do it so much better? And while doing this, expecting a) the client not to say anything to the company and b) your superior never finding out about this?
Absolutely not. We're on a good road here

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11-04-2012, 01:31 PM
  #898
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Some interstkng tidbits here and details of owner concessions.

http://m.startribune.com/?id=177160641

artificially inflate the salary cap in Year 1 so teams don’t have to trade or release players; 2) trade player salary and cap charges in trades (this is something both teams and players have wanted); 3) eliminate re-entry waivers; 4) Increase revenue sharing with further increases as revenues grow, and the top grossing teams making the biggest contributions (revenue sharing is something Don Fehr is passionate about; wants it so the teams that really need assistance are assisted); 5) Introduction of appeal rights to a neutral third-party arbitrator in cases involving on- and- off-ice discipline (player-proposed wish). Some other things that the players should like: 1) Joint NHL/NHLPA Health and Safety Committee with equal representation by the league and union; 2) Establishment of a “standard of care” and “primary allegiance” obligations between the team medical staff and players (this is directly due to the tragic Derek Boogaard situation that remains ongoing); 3) Offseason rehab activities would no longer be required in the team’s home city; 4) Players have access to second medical opinions at the club expense; 5) Ice time restrictions and days off during training camp; 5) Improved facility standards in visiting locker rooms; 6) Ice condition improvements and standards; 7) More player friendly rules for parent-son trips, teams would have to pay for parents travel and lodging to first-ever games, other milestones; 8) Different standards for rent and mortgage reimbursements from teams; 9) increased access to tickets for visiting players and also a game ticket policy that minimizes the tax impact on players; 10) And also, the league has agreed to consider a player proposal for single rooms for all players on the road, which would be thousands of extra dollars spent on travel.

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11-04-2012, 01:35 PM
  #899
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Originally Posted by Crows View Post
Some interstkng tidbits here and details of owner concessions.

http://m.startribune.com/?id=177160641

artificially inflate the salary cap in Year 1 so teams don’t have to trade or release players; 2) trade player salary and cap charges in trades (this is something both teams and players have wanted); 3) eliminate re-entry waivers; 4) Increase revenue sharing with further increases as revenues grow, and the top grossing teams making the biggest contributions (revenue sharing is something Don Fehr is passionate about; wants it so the teams that really need assistance are assisted); 5) Introduction of appeal rights to a neutral third-party arbitrator in cases involving on- and- off-ice discipline (player-proposed wish). Some other things that the players should like: 1) Joint NHL/NHLPA Health and Safety Committee with equal representation by the league and union; 2) Establishment of a “standard of care” and “primary allegiance” obligations between the team medical staff and players (this is directly due to the tragic Derek Boogaard situation that remains ongoing); 3) Offseason rehab activities would no longer be required in the team’s home city; 4) Players have access to second medical opinions at the club expense; 5) Ice time restrictions and days off during training camp; 5) Improved facility standards in visiting locker rooms; 6) Ice condition improvements and standards; 7) More player friendly rules for parent-son trips, teams would have to pay for parents travel and lodging to first-ever games, other milestones; 8) Different standards for rent and mortgage reimbursements from teams; 9) increased access to tickets for visiting players and also a game ticket policy that minimizes the tax impact on players; 10) And also, the league has agreed to consider a player proposal for single rooms for all players on the road, which would be thousands of extra dollars spent on travel.
So with Mortgage/Rent reimbursements... does that mean that players that live full time in the city they play in have their mortgage paid by the owners? Pretty cushy deal.

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Old
11-04-2012, 01:36 PM
  #900
Kopistar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azaloum90 View Post
NHL waited to use their leverage... Cancelling the Winter Classic
PA waited to use their leverage... Force the NHL to lose a big chunk of revenue by cancelling the Winter Classic...

Both seem to have gotten what they wanted, IMO...




I agree, this is a good thing. I also believe that ANYTHING that was discussed between those two are the SAME views that Bettman and D.Fehr share. There is no way either one of those individuals are going over their own superiors head, unless there is some plan to oust both of them from their positions, and I don't see that being the case here...
I mean, think about it. Would you hold a secret meeting with a client, only to tell them about your side company and how you can do it so much better? And while doing this, expecting a) the client not to say anything to the company and b) your superior never finding out about this?
Absolutely not. We're on a good road here
the fact that both sides agreed on how talks went yesterday and are agreeing on the press release on how it went is HUGE!! When was the last time they agreed to anything haha.

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