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11-04-2012, 10:08 AM
  #76
Jesus Teemu
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
^ this.

I doubt Holly can get anything mor than 4C at this point. With Beleskey and Staubitz, he should look fine
I think you're underselling him a bit. However, Holland absolutely will need to earn his spot because Koivu and Bonino are ahead of him right now.

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11-04-2012, 10:32 AM
  #77
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I think you're underselling him a bit. However, Holland absolutely will need to earn his spot because Koivu and Bonino are ahead of him right now.
Holly doesn`t look much more better than Bonino was 1-2 years ago in AHL. Bonino have only got better and Koivu and Getzlaf is automatically above Holly imo. Seriously, i can`t see how could Holly jump into any other line than 4th, if everyone is healthy.

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11-04-2012, 10:37 AM
  #78
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So you're saying that DSP = Selanne? That seems to be a pretty big difference to me........

Also, you miss the point. Holland hasn't proven anything over Bonino - Bonino put up identical production in the AHL, AND performed in the NHL last year - all Holland has earned so far is the 4th line, and to be honest Winnik is a better choice there.
No and you know thats not my point, ES wise our 2nd line has given us 3rd line production the last year or 2

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11-04-2012, 10:37 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Holly doesn`t look much more better than Bonino was 1-2 years ago in AHL. Bonino have only got better and Koivu and Getzlaf is automatically above Holly imo. Seriously, i can`t see how could Holly jump into any other line than 4th, if everyone is healthy.
holland is a far better skater it's not close.....

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11-04-2012, 10:50 AM
  #80
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No and you know thats not my point, ES wise our 2nd line has given us 3rd line production the last year or 2
And our 3rd line has given us 4th line production. Actually I thought your point was there was no difference between our 2nd and 3rd lines. Which is clearly not the case.

Regardless, you haven't addressed the point of Holland not outperforming Bonino to be automatically above him in the lineup. If he's a better skater (he is) and playing with better players (2011-12 KP >> 2010-11 KP, so he is), why does he have only the same production as Bonino did?

I suspect long term Holland is a better 2C as well, but he's done zilch to deserve the spot right now over the other guys on the team IMO.

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11-04-2012, 10:56 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
holland is a far better skater it's not close.....
Bonino have better vision and defensive smarts, There you go.

Skating alone wont give Holland a job over Bonino.

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11-04-2012, 11:15 AM
  #82
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Bonino is a better playmaker. If he was down there it would be obvious.

Holland will play LW till someone falters; if he makes the team that is.


Last edited by Exit Dose: 11-04-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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11-04-2012, 12:22 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
I'm curious, based on Bonino actually performing in the NHL last year and Koivu not actually being dead, why everyone thinks Holland will immediately be given the 2C instead of having to prove himself on a lower line.
Good question. I don't see it that way either. I consider Bonino ahead of him right now. Holland may be able to push his way past him given the opportunity, but to jump his way past him before he gets NHL time? I think Holland would need to explode offensively. However, I do think Holland's tool box might give him an advantage at the NHL level, when he is given the opportunity. As impressed as I've been with Bonino's instincts, he's had a lot of trouble getting to the places he needs to be on a consistent basis(which, to be fair, is an area he took great strides in<no pun intended> this last season).

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11-04-2012, 12:33 PM
  #84
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The other problem is that none of us know where Bonino is at. Holland is playing where we can evaluate his progress from last season.

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11-04-2012, 12:45 PM
  #85
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The other problem is that none of us know where Bonino is at. Holland is playing where we can evaluate his progress from last season.
That's a good point. There is nothing to compare it to right now, except past Bonino. It's the current Bonino that he'll need to surpass; the one in the NHL. I'm digging the progress we're seeing from Holland, but the AHL is not the NHL.

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11-04-2012, 01:41 PM
  #86
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Does anyone know if Bonino got in some skating coaching this summer before the lockout? If he didn't he could be the guy most hurt by this whole fiasco (assuming Selanne isn't run out of the league by it, needless to say).

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11-04-2012, 01:48 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Does anyone know if Bonino got in some skating coaching this summer before the lockout? If he didn't he could be the guy most hurt by this whole fiasco (assuming Selanne isn't run out of the league by it, needless to say).
I have no evidence that he worked on his skating, but seeing as he'd clearly been working on it last summer, I would expect that he did.

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11-04-2012, 02:27 PM
  #88
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I'm curious, based on Bonino actually performing in the NHL last year and Koivu not actually being dead, why everyone thinks Holland will immediately be given the 2C instead of having to prove himself on a lower line.
From me at least it's more hope that he's ready the fact he's been dominating the AHL so far doesn't hurt. I don't think Koivu is a 2C anymore and Bonino made great strides last season but I'm not sure he'll ever be good enough to be a 2C. The quote from Boudreau explicitly stating Koivu would be playing in a checking role as the 3rd line C means it's either Holland or Bonino and based on what I've seen from both, Holland is much more likely to be able to play in a top 6 role than Bonino.

I think he's easily good enough to be effective with two vets in Ryan and Selanne nurturing him. He'll learn a hell of a lot from them as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Bonino have better vision and defensive smarts, There you go.

Skating alone wont give Holland a job over Bonino.
I agree with Bonino having better vision, it's easily Bonino's biggest strength. Defensive smarts, I don't think you can compare the two yet but Holland has been logging big minutes on the PK and has been very reliable in his own end. Outside of vision and passing ability, Holland has Bonino beat in every offensive aspect of the game. His size, skating and shooting ability are all significantly better than Boninos. I know a lot have Holland pegged more as a goal scoring centre but from what I saw of him in juniors (and from what his numbers suggest) he is a very underrated playmaker.


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11-04-2012, 02:45 PM
  #89
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Personally, I would like to keep Palmieri and Holland playing together a la Getzlaf and Perry.

DSP-Getzlaf-Perry
Ryan-Holland-Palmieri
Cogliano-Koivu-Selanne
Beleskey-Bonino-Winnik

Not a terrible lineup if Holland and Palmieri prove to be top 6 players and Bonino improves.

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11-04-2012, 02:51 PM
  #90
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Bonino is producing at 2,83 PPG rate right now, maybe he should be the 1st line center

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11-04-2012, 02:54 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
Personally, I would like to keep Palmieri and Holland playing together a la Getzlaf and Perry.

DSP-Getzlaf-Perry
Ryan-Holland-Palmieri
Cogliano-Koivu-Selanne
Beleskey-Bonino-Winnik

Not a terrible lineup if Holland and Palmieri prove to be top 6 players and Bonino improves.
Winnik, Ryan, Cogliano and Beleskey will be the LW`s there, imo.

Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry (because we have nothing better to put in 1LW)
Cogliano-Koivu-Selanne (because they had some chemistry and despite only one of them should be on top6, this should be the choice imo)
Winnik-Bonino-Smith Pelly (nice energy/checking line)
Beleskey-Holland-Staubitz (even though Palmieri is left out, i could see this happen)

Only one of Holland and Palmieri have the spot at the moment imo.
So, Cogs could take Hollys spot, and Palmieri/Devo splitting 2LW and 3RW

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11-04-2012, 02:59 PM
  #92
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I'd honestly rather have Holland with Koivu and Selanne than Cogs. That line was nothing special at all last year, and I suspect it would be slightly worse this year too.

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11-04-2012, 03:05 PM
  #93
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Writing off progress from Bonino is running the risk of looking foolish, just as people that were writing off Sbisa as just a third pairing defenseman, Palmieri and Holland as only having third line potential, or that one guy that wrote off Fowler as only ever being a second pairing defenseman are looking or look. A year ago, Bonino was controlling play, down in Syracuse, in a way that none of our centers are doing this year in Norfolk. While that doesn't guarantee that he'll be able to do that in the NHL, we should not be discounting that because it hasn't happened, yet. Just as Fowler and Sbisa are still developing, even Ryan to a lesser extent, so is Bonino.

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11-04-2012, 03:16 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Winnik, Ryan, Cogliano and Beleskey will be the LW`s there, imo.

Ryan-Getzlaf-Perry (because we have nothing better to put in 1LW)
Cogliano-Koivu-Selanne (because they had some chemistry and despite only one of them should be on top6, this should be the choice imo)
Winnik-Bonino-Smith Pelly (nice energy/checking line)
Beleskey-Holland-Staubitz (even though Palmieri is left out, i could see this happen)

Only one of Holland and Palmieri have the spot at the moment imo.
So, Cogs could take Hollys spot, and Palmieri/Devo splitting 2LW and 3RW
There is no way in hell that Pamieri doesn't make the team. He's good enough to make it, and he's earned a spot on the 3rd line at worst.

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11-04-2012, 03:17 PM
  #95
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I'd honestly rather have Holland with Koivu and Selanne than Cogs. That line was nothing special at all last year, and I suspect it would be slightly worse this year too.
BB said in an interview that he expects full season on a wing from Cogs and around 15 goals because of that. I think he wants him on top6. He should be able to put up those points if he isn`t throwed around lineup.

Youngsters are getting better, but BB could choose a bit more experienced Cogs and let youngsters develop other assets on bottom 6.

I can see both scenarious, though. Just trying to put together BB thoughts and expressions

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11-04-2012, 03:37 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
BB said in an interview that he expects full season on a wing from Cogs and around 15 goals because of that. I think he wants him on top6. He should be able to put up those points if he isn`t throwed around lineup.

Youngsters are getting better, but BB could choose a bit more experienced Cogs and let youngsters develop other assets on bottom 6.

I can see both scenarious, though. Just trying to put together BB thoughts and expressions
Boudreau says a lot of things. When he was with Washington he said he thought Steckel would be a 15 goal scorer in the NHL and that Schultz would be a first pairing defenseman. Cogs could get 15 goals if he was playing in the top 6 all year but right now we have better options (Perry, Palmieri, Selanne & Ryan).

Here is what I would like to see tried going into the season:

Palmieri - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - Holland/Bonino - Selanne
Winnik - Koivu - DSP
Cogliano - Holland/Bonino - Beleskey

It assumes Palmieri can transition to LW but if he can I think that's a decent lineup. I think we're better off trying to get 2 established scoring lines before we try and spread the talent over 3 lines.

If Palmieri can't transition to LW then the talent would probably have to be spread over 3 lines because we're so top heavy at RW:

DSP - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - Holland/Bonino - Palmieri
Winnik/Cogs - Koivu - Selanne
Winnik/Cogs - Holland/Bonino - Beleskey

I don't like that lineup because I don't think DSPs offensive game is quite good enough to be playing against other teams top defensive units with the twins and I don't think Selanne is quite good enough to carry a whole line offensively again which he would have to if he was playing with Koivu and Winnik/Cogliano.

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11-04-2012, 04:07 PM
  #97
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I don't like that lineup because I don't think DSPs offensive game is quite good enough to be playing against other teams top defensive units with the twins and I don't think Selanne is quite good enough to carry a whole line offensively again which he would have to if he was playing with Koivu and Winnik/Cogliano.
I agree. I think for DSP to be put on the top line it's going to be because they feel his defensive strengths are good enough to overcome what's currently a fairly average offensive toolkit.

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11-04-2012, 04:55 PM
  #98
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And our 3rd line has given us 4th line production. Actually I thought your point was there was no difference between our 2nd and 3rd lines. Which is clearly not the case.

Regardless, you haven't addressed the point of Holland not outperforming Bonino to be automatically above him in the lineup. If he's a better skater (he is) and playing with better players (2011-12 KP >> 2010-11 KP, so he is), why does he have only the same production as Bonino did?

I suspect long term Holland is a better 2C as well, but he's done zilch to deserve the spot right now over the other guys on the team IMO.
Because Holland has better offensive tools? He has great chemistry with Palmieri. Bonino's skating is going to hold him back, regardless besides the top line, none of the other lines we have distinguish themselves above the rest as a second scoring line.

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11-04-2012, 04:57 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Bonino have better vision and defensive smarts, There you go.

Skating alone wont give Holland a job over Bonino.
Holland has a pro style game, big very good skating center, great shot, good playmaking he is making a jump in the AHL this year, which suggests he's going to be an NHL'er soon

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11-04-2012, 05:17 PM
  #100
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Boudreau says a lot of things. When he was with Washington he said he thought Steckel would be a 15 goal scorer in the NHL and that Schultz would be a first pairing defenseman. Cogs could get 15 goals if he was playing in the top 6 all year but right now we have better options (Perry, Palmieri, Selanne & Ryan).

Here is what I would like to see tried going into the season:

Palmieri - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - Holland/Bonino - Selanne
Winnik - Koivu - DSP
Cogliano - Holland/Bonino - Beleskey
I`d like to see that lineup more than the one i wrote, actually. But i tried to make my lienup taking in account what Bruce have stated. But, it as well may be as you said - with no actual reason.

The most i like on your lineup is the 3d line. If that line pans out as legitime shutdown line, i`m actually ok with Cogs on 2nd line with Teemu and Holly or Bonino IF Palmieri isn`t able to translate to LW. However, that again leaves Palmieri out of TOP9 which probably wont happen but i wouldn`t cross it out just right away. If this team clicks, then there should be no reason to put Palmieri somewhere in just because. Teemu and maybe even Perry is probably gone soon, so our RW might open up some spots. Palmieri is great in AHL but he can work on some things for another season (at maximum). With injuries he`d see NHL some time anyway. And i don`t believe that he`s THAT good that no matter what, he should play in NHL. Hey, he`s now playing in AHL anyway.

With that 3d line would benefit our top6, for not playing against top opposition every night.
I still believe that our cup top6 of Kunitz, Macdonald, Selanne, Penner, Getz and Perry was much better than they`d be without that 3d line.

For me it`s hard to imagine what could this all turn out when (if) season starts. There are a lot of options and there are arguable reasons for a lot of them, so we might actually see some reall juggling when the Ducks hockey comes back.


Last edited by Kalvinators: 11-04-2012 at 05:25 PM.
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