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The Center Pole : who are the futur 4 center!!

View Poll Results: What is your top 4 !
Plekanec 130 79.27%
Deshanais 99 60.37%
Eller 145 88.41%
Gomez 8 4.88%
White 26 15.85%
Nokelainen 2 1.22%
Leblanc 34 20.73%
Bournival 40 24.39%
Galchenyuk 136 82.93%
Dumont 7 4.27%
Vail 10 6.10%
Pribyl 1 0.61%
Cichy 2 1.22%
Nattinen 5 3.05%
Geoffrion 6 3.66%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 164. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-04-2012, 04:14 PM
  #101
Roulin
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
No, you did not.

The closest thing to that would be me saying Schenn and Couturier would become 60-70 point players, which is not equivalent to saying they will reach their potential. Go to the Flyers boards and try to tell them that 65 points is "best-case scenario" for Couturier.

Their potential for both is to be 80-90 point players, I deliberately lowered the threshold to 60-70 points to account for uncertainty. I guess I could have specified that, but I thought it was obvious.

You're ignoring Wayne Simmonds.

He's 6'2", 24 years-old, he fights, and he just came off a 28 goal, 21 assist season which he produced with second line minutes.

Schenn doesn't need to reach his potential for the Flyers to win the Richards trade, not even close.
Well, there you go. Considering Schenn and Couturier's low end potential to be 60-70pt players, high end 80-90? You just expect more of prospects than I do.

Yup, Simmons is a fine player. I don't expect either he or Schenn to ever be as good as Richards, though Schenn might prove me wrong one day, if he keeps developing without injury or plateau.

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11-04-2012, 04:15 PM
  #102
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So essentially what you are telling me is because Desharnais is one-dimension, because you don't think hed be a good winger, because you don't want him to play with other players, that we should re-organize the rest of the lineup in order to accomodate him? It's pretty ridiculous the lengths we are willing to go to ensure that Desharnais gets to play his game while trying to re-organize the rest of the team. If Desharnais can't fit in the long run, then he is the one that should be moved rather than others moving to accomodate him.

We won't know if he'll be a good winger until we try. We won't know if he'll be good with other wingers until we try. But we have to do this. Why is everyone so scared of moving Desharnais out of his sheltered role? I mean its really mind-boggling how people are just so adverse to playing him outside of his little shell, which I really do think has to do with him being a local guy.

There is aboslutely no reason why changes should be tried out and no reason we can't just keep Desharnais, Eller, Plekanec and Galchenyuk on one team.
Not accomodating DD in order to accomodate TP makes no sense whatsoever either.

TP ends up in the -15 range, he's the one that has to be moved.


See what I did? You think that is stupid? It is. But it also exactly what you're doing.

All that you need to know is this : DD WON'T be traded. Anywhere. At least not in the near future. He MIGHT be moved to wing, but that will depend on Eller or Galchenyuk being able to step in a Top-6 center role, which is absolutely not a given at this point.

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11-04-2012, 04:16 PM
  #103
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It's depressing that our team has been so terribly offensively that a 60 point production line has become untouchable.

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11-04-2012, 04:22 PM
  #104
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When has Subban benefited from playing with Markov?

By the way, that's the sort of thing you expect players to say. If a journalist asks Pacioretty about Cole, he's not going to answer "I just do my own thing", he's going to say the cliche thing people want to hear, if he deviates from the cliche script he risks being traded and booed.

The last time Pacioretty said the truth about anything was when he said he's rather play first line minutes in Hamilton than third line minutes in Montreal. Half the fanbase and the entire media was out to get him.

Not every cliché answer is just BS. Some are actually true.
Fact remains, everybody, in every job in the world, benefits from observing someone with experience do the same thing. No crazy secret over here.

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11-04-2012, 04:24 PM
  #105
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Not every cliché answer is just BS. Some are actually true.
Fact remains, everybody, in every job in the world, benefits from observing someone with experience do the same thing. No crazy secret over here.
Then according to MP, MP should never be splitted from DD.

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11-04-2012, 04:25 PM
  #106
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It's depressing that our team has been so terribly offensively that a 60 point production line has become untouchable.
The drive for mediocrity.

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11-04-2012, 04:29 PM
  #107
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Not accomodating DD in order to accomodate TP makes no sense whatsoever either.

TP ends up in the -15 range, he's the one that has to be moved.


See what I did? You think that is stupid? It is. But it also exactly what you're doing.

All that you need to know is this : DD WON'T be traded. Anywhere. At least not in the near future. He MIGHT be moved to wing, but that will depend on Eller or Galchenyuk being able to step in a Top-6 center role, which is absolutely not a given at this point.
Actually it makes much more sense to move Desharnais around in the lineup for the benefit of the whole team then to re-arrange the entire rest of the lineup to accomodate Desharnais.

The centre position is extremely important in this game. Having a two-way centre is just as important as having a pure offensive centre. Plekanec is one of the premier two-way centre's of the game, trading him would just make a hole in the lineup.

Also, even if he does get traded, someone still has to handle the defensive load and the tough matchups given that Desharnais can't do so and the last thing I want is someone like Galchenyuk getting stuck with these matchups and falling into the same spiral of crap Plekanec has, which is to shoulder the burden so that everyone else can get softer minutes. It really makes no sense. A centre lineup of Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Eller is much stronger than one of Desharnais, Eller and Galchenyuk (of course assuming Galchenyuk develops into what we expect to be). The former trio of centres can be thrown out against any line in any situation, there will still be need for matchups, however, the coach has a wide variety of options. In the latter trio, there is less options as Desharnais' defensive short comings means he needs the match ups. We'll end up with the same situation as last year where we have one centre playing an overwhelming majority of his starts in the defensive zone, while having another playing an overwheliming majority of his starts in the offensive zone. This is not a balance.

We've already have recieved some tastes of Desharnais playing wing in his first season and he didn't look out of place at all. I really so zero problem moving him to the wing if that is what is necessary. Why people freak out with such a suggestion is mind-boggling and the only real reason is because Desharnais is a local boy and everyone wants him to get the spotlight. Having Desharnais on the wing and having him produce there can be a double advantage as it gives the team options in case of injuries. Boston did just fine with Peverely, Kelly, Seguin, Bergeron and Krecji all as centres. It gives them excellent depth and is part of the reason why they are such a strong team.

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11-04-2012, 04:29 PM
  #108
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Not accomodating DD in order to accomodate TP makes no sense whatsoever either.

TP ends up in the -15 range, he's the one that has to be moved.


See what I did? You think that is stupid? It is. But it also exactly what you're doing.

All that you need to know is this : DD WON'T be traded. Anywhere. At least not in the near future. He MIGHT be moved to wing, but that will depend on Eller or Galchenyuk being able to step in a Top-6 center role, which is absolutely not a given at this point.
Except that Plekanec is our best center, so it's normal that you try to accommodate him first.

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11-04-2012, 04:32 PM
  #109
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Then according to MP, MP should never be splitted from DD.
Not at all. MaxPac said DD was the best center he had played with, not that he shouldn't be split from him. He said that a while ago as well, and a line constitute of three players, not two. As a coach, you ideally try to build lines.

In any event, I would keep MaxPac next to DD. Cole is the one I'd move next to Plek.

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11-04-2012, 04:35 PM
  #110
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Well, there you go. Considering Schenn and Couturier's low end potential to be 60-70pt players, high end 80-90? You just expect more of prospects than I do.
I never said 65 points was low-end.

I said 80-90 was high-end, and 60-70 is what you end up with after accounting for uncertainty.

That means the low-end is below 60... maybe 40-50 points.

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11-04-2012, 04:39 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Not every cliché answer is just BS. Some are actually true.
Fact remains, everybody, in every job in the world, benefits from observing someone with experience do the same thing. No crazy secret over here.
But you can't know.

I only listen to hockey players when they're NOT spouting clichés.

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11-04-2012, 04:40 PM
  #112
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Actually it makes much more sense to move Desharnais around in the lineup for the benefit of the whole team then to re-arrange the entire rest of the lineup to accomodate Desharnais.

The centre position is extremely important in this game. Having a two-way centre is just as important as having a pure offensive centre. Plekanec is one of the premier two-way centre's of the game, trading him would just make a hole in the lineup.

Also, even if he does get traded, someone still has to handle the defensive load and the tough matchups given that Desharnais can't do so and the last thing I want is someone like Galchenyuk getting stuck with these matchups and falling into the same spiral of crap Plekanec has, which is to shoulder the burden so that everyone else can get softer minutes. It really makes no sense. A centre lineup of Plekanec, Galchenyuk and Eller is much stronger than one of Desharnais, Eller and Galchenyuk (of course assuming Galchenyuk develops into what we expect to be). The former trio of centres can be thrown out against any line in any situation, there will still be need for matchups, however, the coach has a wide variety of options. In the latter trio, there is less options as Desharnais' defensive short comings means he needs the match ups. We'll end up with the same situation as last year where we have one centre playing an overwhelming majority of his starts in the defensive zone, while having another playing an overwheliming majority of his starts in the offensive zone. This is not a balance.

We've already have recieved some tastes of Desharnais playing wing in his first season and he didn't look out of place at all. I really so zero problem moving him to the wing if that is what is necessary. Why people freak out with such a suggestion is mind-boggling and the only real reason is because Desharnais is a local boy and everyone wants him to get the spotlight. Having Desharnais on the wing and having him produce there can be a double advantage as it gives the team options in case of injuries. Boston did just fine with Peverely, Kelly, Seguin, Bergeron and Krecji all as centres. It gives them excellent depth and is part of the reason why they are such a strong team.
DD was top line and was accomodated because he actually outproduced TP.

The outproduction was actually way bigger than end-of-the-year numbers tell -- DD being on 3rd line duties until game 20 or so.

Look, in the best world, DD would end up having a role similar to Daniel Briere in Philly (while hopefully making much less money). However, until then, and because there isn't much people aside from this board who are absolutely convinced that Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide no 1 in that league anyways, DD deserves at least another shot at being the go-to center of that team for offensive missions, because he did pretty well last season.

And don't fool yourself -- he'll get that chance to be this player, regardless of what this board thinks or says.

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11-04-2012, 04:43 PM
  #113
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But you can't know.

I only listen to hockey players when they're NOT spouting clichés.
Sure you can, when it's common sense and logic like this, then you know.

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11-04-2012, 04:47 PM
  #114
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Sure you can, when it's common sense and logic like this, then you know.
How is it common sense and logic that Subban has benefited from playing with Markov?

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11-04-2012, 04:52 PM
  #115
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DD was top line and was accomodated because he actually outproduced TP.

The outproduction was actually way bigger than end-of-the-year numbers tell -- DD being on 3rd line duties until game 20 or so.
Plekanec produced 52 points playing with the likes of Darche, White, Staubitz, Moen; against a Corsi of +0.700, and playing with a lot of defensive zone starts.

Do you actually believe that Plekanec would not reach 60 points playing with Cole and Pacioretty, against a Corsi of 0.00, and with ~10% more offensive zone starts? Especially given the fact he already has two 70 point seasons?

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And don't fool yourself -- he'll get that chance to be this player, regardless of what this board thinks or says.
Desharnais would have had that chance this year.

If there's no hockey until 2013-2014, then there could be a trade at the start of the season to accomodate Galchenyuk on the 3rd line (and thus Eller on the 2nd line).

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11-04-2012, 05:00 PM
  #116
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Kriss E,

Let's take a step back.

I agree that young players probably benefit from having successful veterans around. Plekanec can fit that role.

However,

They'll also benefit from the increased ice time and roles available if Plekanec leaves. Eller would have to step up as the character leader of the centers. He's a 2007 draft pick, which means that by 2014 he's ready to be a veteran and leader. Further, there's the benefit of whatever we get in a trade for Plekanec.

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11-04-2012, 05:02 PM
  #117
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DD was top line and was accomodated because he actually outproduced TP.

The outproduction was actually way bigger than end-of-the-year numbers tell -- DD being on 3rd line duties until game 20 or so.

Look, in the best world, DD would end up having a role similar to Daniel Briere in Philly (while hopefully making much less money). However, until then, and because there isn't much people aside from this board who are absolutely convinced that Tomas Plekanec is a bona-fide no 1 in that league anyways, DD deserves at least another shot at being the go-to center of that team for offensive missions, because he did pretty well last season.

And don't fool yourself -- he'll get that chance to be this player, regardless of what this board thinks or says.
DD was never used as a 3rd liner last year. Matter of fact, he only played under 15min once in the first 20 games, and that was 14:41. Not quite 3rd line minutes.
Not to mention, DD was never used in a defensive role at ES.

DD was not accommodated because he outproduced Plek, RC was a complete train wreck as a coach. He didn't know what to do, killed our team, made sure a bunch of our players reached their all time low in value, alienated our best center in Plekanec, and assured we finished in the bottom of the league. His decisions were poor.

It would be great if DD turned out like Briere, with a different style, however you usually don't move a perfectly capable player already there in order to see what can happen. Just like in Philly, Giroux proved himself playing under Richards first. They didn't move Richards around the line up and gave Giroux the best players to see what he could do. Giroux proved himself.
Unfortunately, we don't have the same depth Philly had on the wings. If you give DD MaxPac and Cole again, and put Bourque with Plek, with more defensive duties, then not only will you not get the most out of Plekanec, but you will also lower his value in the process.

Our offense needs to be spread around better, and Plekanec is still our #1.

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11-04-2012, 05:07 PM
  #118
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Plekanec produced 52 points playing with the likes of Darche, White, Staubitz, Moen; against a Corsi of +0.700, and playing with a lot of defensive zone starts.

Do you actually believe that Plekanec would not reach 60 points playing with Cole and Pacioretty, against a Corsi of 0.00, and with ~10% more offensive zone starts? Especially given the fact he already has two 70 point seasons?


Desharnais would have had that chance this year.

If there's no hockey until 2013-2014, then there could be a trade at the start of the season to accomodate Galchenyuk on the 3rd line (and thus Eller on the 2nd line).
1st quote : Did DD produced more points than TP last season? Yes. That was the only meaning of "outproduced".

2nd quote : Then TP will be the one traded, unless you think it REALLY make sense to trade a guy just after signing him. Hint : It doesn't. Unless Brian Gionta or Eric Cole or Max Pacioretty or René Bourque is traded and that one of AG, LE or DD takes a winger spot.


Last edited by MXD: 11-04-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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11-04-2012, 05:08 PM
  #119
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DD was never used as a 3rd liner last year. Matter of fact, he only played under 15min once in the first 20 games, and that was 14:41. Not quite 3rd line minutes.
Not to mention, DD was never used in a defensive role at ES.

DD was not accommodated because he outproduced Plek, RC was a complete train wreck as a coach. He didn't know what to do, killed our team, made sure a bunch of our players reached their all time low in value, alienated our best center in Plekanec, and assured we finished in the bottom of the league. His decisions were poor.

It would be great if DD turned out like Briere, with a different style, however you usually don't move a perfectly capable player already there in order to see what can happen. Just like in Philly, Giroux proved himself playing under Richards first. They didn't move Richards around the line up and gave Giroux the best players to see what he could do. Giroux proved himself.
Unfortunately, we don't have the same depth Philly had on the wings. If you give DD MaxPac and Cole again, and put Bourque with Plek, with more defensive duties, then not only will you not get the most out of Plekanec, but you will also lower his value in the process.

Our offense needs to be spread around better, and Plekanec is still our #1.
Exactly what MP did last year... with DD.

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11-04-2012, 05:09 PM
  #120
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Kriss E,

Let's take a step back.

I agree that young players probably benefit from having successful veterans around. Plekanec can fit that role.

However,

They'll also benefit from the increased ice time and roles available if Plekanec leaves. Eller would have to step up as the character leader of the centers. He's a 2007 draft pick, which means that by 2014 he's ready to be a veteran and leader. Further, there's the benefit of whatever we get in a trade for Plekanec.
But you don't move a player in hopes that the one beneath him will surpass him. I need more assurance that whoever is left can fill Plekanec's shoes, also if DD and Eller get injured, we're right back in the crapper hole. I don't think the timing is ideal to move Plekanec now.

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11-04-2012, 05:13 PM
  #121
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But you don't move a player in hopes that the one beneath him will surpass him. I need more assurance that whoever is left can fill Plekanec's shoes, also if DD and Eller get injured, we're right back in the crapper hole. I don't think the timing is ideal to move Plekanec now.
Probably not right now, but at the end of the present season (...well, sortof), yes.

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11-04-2012, 05:14 PM
  #122
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But you don't move a player in hopes that the one beneath him will surpass him. I need more assurance that whoever is left can fill Plekanec's shoes, also if DD and Eller get injured, we're right back in the crapper hole. I don't think the timing is ideal to move Plekanec now.
I believe that this team is so terrible that there's little prospect of cup contention within five years without taking educated risks. I think that playing it safe will get us to 8th place at best.

You can wait to make a trade until after Eller and Galchenyuk have proven themselves a capable #2 and #1, but if you make the trade now you're swining for the fences, because Plekanec should have higher value now, and a prospect now is worth more than a prospect in 2015.

You, on the other hand, hold the team in higher esteem, you believe it is already at the level of a bubble team, and thus a sequence of safe moves should be sufficient to propel us to the next stage.

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11-04-2012, 05:23 PM
  #123
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I believe that this team is so terrible that there's little prospect of cup contention within five years without taking educated risks. I think that playing it safe will get us to 8th place at best.

You can wait to make a trade until after Eller and Galchenyuk have proven themselves a capable #2 and #1, but if you make the trade now you're swining for the fences, because Plekanec should have higher value now, and a prospect now is worth more than a prospect in 2015.

You, on the other hand, hold the team in higher esteem, you believe it is already at the level of a bubble team, and thus a sequence of safe moves should be sufficient to propel us to the next stage.
Bolded might just never happen, so you're just possibly suggesting infinite tank.

And while underlined is more likely, it might never happen as well.

The current team is pretty much a bubble team, unless you think Carey Price played a typical season last year, and I'm not even talking about the shootouts.

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11-04-2012, 05:28 PM
  #124
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I believe that this team is so terrible that there's little prospect of cup contention within five years without taking educated risks. I think that playing it safe will get us to 8th place at best.

You can wait to make a trade until after Eller and Galchenyuk have proven themselves a capable #2 and #1, but if you make the trade now you're swining for the fences, because Plekanec should have higher value now, and a prospect now is worth more than a prospect in 2015.

You, on the other hand, hold the team in higher esteem, you believe it is already at the level of a bubble team, and thus a sequence of safe moves should be sufficient to propel us to the next stage.
No, I don't know where our team stands. I just give myself a little wiggle rope.
We made some changes that worsened our roster, however, we have a lot of players that we are counting on to take a bigger role and where they'll be in their progression/development is unsure and unpredictable at this point.

What if DD and MaxPac keep growing to the point of being ppg players? Price and PK solidify themselves as the superstars many fans see in them? Eller finds his new frame to be rather useful during his battles and became more patient with the puck, which improves his decision making? Diaz and Emelin become more comfortable as they keep gaining experience.
Sure, maybe non of those things will happen, but point is it's tough to really evaluate what you have in front of you when a lot of it is resting on the shoulders of youngsters. I mean, if Price alone gets to that next level, we all know how far a goalie can take a team.
I'm not saying we should bank on this to happen, just that I personally would wait longer before moving Plek.

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11-04-2012, 06:12 PM
  #125
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What if DD and MaxPac keep growing to the point of being ppg players? Price and PK solidify themselves as the superstars many fans see in them? Eller finds his new frame to be rather useful during his battles and became more patient with the puck, which improves his decision making? Diaz and Emelin become more comfortable as they keep gaining experience.
I don't know how many of those things will happen, but I'm sure some will and some won't, because if you roll a die a lot of times you sometimes get the result you want.

However, you only listed possible potential outcomes that would be positive. You didn't lost potential negative outcomes. What if Price, Subban, or Plekanec gets injured for example? What if Cole goes back to being the 20-25 goal scorer he's historically been? What if our PK comes back down to Earth? What if the rest of our division stops being one of the weaker divisions in hockey, with Toronto and Buffalo stepping up?

The 2011-2012 season was the result of a huge number of dice rolls. When you roll the dice a lot of times, luck disappears from the equation. You end up with the expected value. This is a theorem in mathematics known as the central limit theorem. If you flip a coin once, you are lucky or unlucky. If you flip a coin a thousand times, you get what you deserve.

I just don't buy into the luck theory of standings. I think teams end up approximately where they deserve to end up, which is why standings look remarkably similar year after year.

Since I think we are a weak team, I think we need to take some risks to improve.

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