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Old
11-04-2012, 04:10 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I think its a stretch to call Backlund a 'great' 2-way center at this point, but regardless I know what you meant. I'm not saying let's ship Backlund out either, but if you look at available spots in our lineup someone needs to be the odd man out. I to would not of signed Stemps even though I like him, I don't think that move made any sense. My main point is, if season starts up and Horak is clearly out performing Backlund, I would be pissed if Horak was returned to the Heat due to a numbers game.

I mostly wanted to see what would acceptable value be for Backlund to our fanbase if that scenario plays out.

I think a Sven-Backlund-Horak line would be a great idea. However 1-2 trades would need to be made IMO to roll with that as a 3rd line.

Tangs Cammy Iggy
Glencross Cervenka Hudler
Sven Backlund Horak
Comeau Stajan Jackman/Stemps

That's also not even counting Jones. Then there's guys like Bouma, Nemisz and Aliu.
Personally I don't think Cervenka will end up playing here if the lockout lasts a year and I think Stajan will find his groove under Hartley so that atleast gives Jones or Bouma a spot.

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11-04-2012, 04:17 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
How is physical in Chicago? Also trying to repeat the build of others teams almost never works we have to build to our strengths and Feaster wants his strength to be skill not size.
I was talking about their cup winning team. Not sure why we have to pick one over the other (size vs. skill).

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11-04-2012, 04:21 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Noori View Post
I was talking about their cup winning team. Not sure why we have to pick one over the other (size vs. skill).
We don't have to pick but at this point we have one and not the other with little to help in FA so we might as well play to our strengths.

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11-04-2012, 04:31 PM
  #29
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Let's not forget that Backlund is one more 15pt or less season away from being a straight-up bust or career 4th liner.

He needs to start getting 20 assists or more now that he's playing in a less defensive system and has skilled wingers around him

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11-04-2012, 04:33 PM
  #30
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I think we'll be alright. Iggy and Glencross add toughness to our team. Comeau is a hitter, Jackman will drop them with anyone. We can always call up Aliu if need be. Our D is the main problem (outside of Sarich and Gio), but they can all skate well and that is more important than hitting.

I really can't wait until Sieloff is ready in a couple seasons, he looks like a player.

Lastly, I'll add that Horak is a good playmaker and has always been. Its awesome he's scoring goals right as it shows his diverse skill set. It looks as though he could play either position depending on our needs for him.

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11-04-2012, 04:44 PM
  #31
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People also need to remember that last year Backlund was played primarily as a defensive forward starting mostly in the defensive zone against harder competition. Horak was very sheltered. I don't think the flames are in a position to be trading away more of their young talent, especially ones with the amount of talent Backlund has. If Backlund outplays Horak at camp, then he deserves the spot on the team. Same as Horak.

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11-04-2012, 05:43 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I think its a stretch to call Backlund a 'great' 2-way center at this point, but regardless I know what you meant. I'm not saying let's ship Backlund out either, but if you look at available spots in our lineup someone needs to be the odd man out. I to would not of signed Stemps even though I like him, I don't think that move made any sense. My main point is, if season starts up and Horak is clearly out performing Backlund, I would be pissed if Horak was returned to the Heat due to a numbers game.

I mostly wanted to see what would acceptable value be for Backlund to our fanbase if that scenario plays out.

I think a Sven-Backlund-Horak line would be a great idea. However 1-2 trades would need to be made IMO to roll with that as a 3rd line.

Tangs Cammy Iggy
Glencross Cervenka Hudler
Sven Backlund Horak
Comeau Stajan Jackman/Stemps

That's also not even counting Jones. Then there's guys like Bouma, Nemisz and Aliu.
If that's the case, then it would be far more prudent for the Flames to move Stempniak or Comeau or Jones instead. There's no rule against that prevents the team from having two centre prospects on the roster at the same time.

In any case, since Horak's success has come on the wing, there may be no real competition between the two.

Plus, with Backlund having a fantastic start in the SEL, a league that's arguably better than the AHL, the premise of this thread isn't really applicable anymore.

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11-04-2012, 06:16 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
If that's the case, then it would be far more prudent for the Flames to move Stempniak or Comeau or Jones instead. There's no rule against that prevents the team from having two centre prospects on the roster at the same time.

In any case, since Horak's success has come on the wing, there may be no real competition between the two.

Plus, with Backlund having a fantastic start in the SEL, a league that's arguably better than the AHL, the premise of this thread isn't really applicable anymore.
Hes on a second tier team in Sweden, the AHL is far superior competition.

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11-04-2012, 06:51 PM
  #34
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Horak is playing with Bart and Walter. I wanna see how Backlund does with Bartschi before writing him off.

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11-04-2012, 07:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by I Hate Jay Feaster View Post
Horak is playing with Bart and Walter. I wanna see how Backlund does with Bartschi before writing him off.
Horak has only really played with Sven 2 games so far.

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11-04-2012, 07:20 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
Hes on a second tier team in Sweden, the AHL is far superior competition.
True. But when you compare his output to other NHL players, you can't help but be impressed. He has the best ppg in the league (1.9). The guy deserves just as much credit as Horak is getting and I wouldn't hesitate to put Backlund ahead of Horak in the depth chart as of now.

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11-04-2012, 07:35 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rolen View Post
True. But when you compare his output to other NHL players, you can't help but be impressed. He has the best ppg in the league (1.9). The guy deserves just as much credit as Horak is getting and I wouldn't hesitate to put Backlund ahead of Horak in the depth chart as of now.
Oh, I completely agree.

I was just pointing that out as an error. There is no way 9 games should be enough to move Horak ahead of Backlund on the NHL depth chart. Backlunds value as a defensive forward trumps any (if there is any) offensive advantage that Horak would have on him. The fact the Backlund is producing offence at such a high clip is very encouraging.

A healthy season by Backlund will be a productive one.

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11-04-2012, 07:45 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Plus, with Backlund having a fantastic start in the SEL, a league that's arguably better than the AHL, the premise of this thread isn't really applicable anymore.
What the heck else is there to talk to about with no hockey?

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11-04-2012, 08:21 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superhakan View Post
Hes on a second tier team in Sweden, the AHL is far superior competition.
My mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVW View Post
What the heck else is there to talk to about with no hockey?
That's a good point.

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11-04-2012, 08:22 PM
  #40
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2+2 for Backlund in yesterdays game, he's now at 19 points in 10 games. He's been really, really good for Västerås so far. This isnt saying much but Kopitar for example have 17 in 16, Landeskog 8 in 8, Berglund 16 in 15 in the same league.

I'm feeling confident that he will break out offensively at the bigger stage when the NHL starts again. This will have done him good, I'm sure of it. We saw the same thing from some players 04-05.

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11-04-2012, 08:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by tigre View Post
2+2 for Backlund in yesterdays game, he's now at 19 points in 10 games. He's been really, really good for Västerås so far. This isnt saying much but Kopitar for example have 17 in 16, Landeskog 8 in 8, Berglund 16 in 15 in the same league.

I'm feeling confident that he will break out offensively at the bigger stage when the NHL starts again. This will have done him good, I'm sure of it. We saw the same thing from some players 04-05.
This is exactly how I feel.

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11-04-2012, 09:08 PM
  #42
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Anyways, just to throw same names out there, if Horak did impress and out perform Backlund, some players I had in mind would be someone like a Blum or Dalpe?

Assuming Backlund was the target to move, what players would be acceptable returns?

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11-04-2012, 09:57 PM
  #43
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Backlund's value is at an all time low. Trading him at this point is a non starter, really.



Unless you consider a 4th round pick as an acceptable return. (ie Dustin Boyd type return)

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11-04-2012, 10:48 PM
  #44
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I know there was a few times this year when I was getting frustrated with Backlund. He was given the top line and did nothing. He just regressed and regressed. He isn't very good at face-offs either.

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11-05-2012, 11:16 AM
  #45
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I don't really see the point of comparing the two right now. If Horak was playing at Center and putting up these points it would make sense but he's not.

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11-05-2012, 11:36 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post


Who's on Backlund's wing? A couple of nobodies?
He's currently on a line with Berglund and a Euro player I'm not familiar with. Not sure if he's centering the line or Berglund is.

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i'm not disagreeing with you. But if it came down to congestion at the centre position, or even at the forward position, you do what we did last year and trade your Morrison. Who would that be?
If there's centre/forward congestion, players I trade first: Stajan, Jackman, Hudler, Cammalleri.

There's no rule stating that Horak has to play in the NHL this season. If it really came down to it, he could stay in the AHL. It's not going to hurt the guy. There has never, in the time since he's been drafted, been a reason to trade Backlund, and as he appears to be breaking out offensively that has only become more clear.

I definitely wouldn't away an excellent young defensive centre with top 6 upside for a 21 year old doing well in the minors.

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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
I know there was a few times this year when I was getting frustrated with Backlund. He was given the top line and did nothing. He just regressed and regressed. He isn't very good at face-offs either.
Horak is godawful at faceoffs (significantly worse than Backlund).

A good note to take is that Horak is only two years younger than Backlund. Yes, two years can be a large gap developmentally, but it's not like we're comparing a well-established vet to a prospect, here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
It is a pretty weak league but its nice to see him killing it.
Although I don't think anyone has direct comparisons between the NHL and Allsvenskan, some Swedish posters here indicated that it would be somewhere between AHL and SEL in terms of overall skill level. While it is a second-tier league in Sweden, it's a relegation league so there are always teams/players there who previously were playing in the SEL (now, they're generally the worst teams in the SEL in a given season, but for comparison's sake, the Blue Jackets or Oilers would regularly hand the entire AHL its own ass on a regular basis).


Last edited by SmellOfVictory: 11-05-2012 at 12:32 PM.
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11-05-2012, 12:30 PM
  #47
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Backlund has a better toolbox than Horak, I don't think that part is really debatable.

However, Horak seems to have transitioned to the NHL better than Backlund I think the reason is 2-fold.

1. Backlund has been mired by injuries, while Horak has stayed much healthier.

2. When Backlund has been healthy hes either been a. On the 4th line (limited minutes.) or b. on the 1st line and forced to play a defensive game. Horak, played mostly third line minutes, and IMO was given more free reign to play "his game."

Just my two cents.

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11-05-2012, 12:55 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Backlund has a better toolbox than Horak, I don't think that part is really debatable.

However, Horak seems to have transitioned to the NHL better than Backlund I think the reason is 2-fold.

1. Backlund has been mired by injuries, while Horak has stayed much healthier.

2. When Backlund has been healthy hes either been a. On the 4th line (limited minutes.) or b. on the 1st line and forced to play a defensive game. Horak, played mostly third line minutes, and IMO was given more free reign to play "his game."

Just my two cents.
The second point is not true even if people believe it, Backlund averaged more than 3 minutes a night of ES time a game and also saw almost a minute more on the power play than Horak. Horak moved lines a fair bit but his 3 top played with forwards were Byron, Tko, Jackman in comparison Backlund who moved around alot played with Stemps, Iginla, Comeau. So I would say that Horak played with the 4th liners and Backlund played with the 3rd liners. The year before Backlund played with Hagman, Glencross and Iginla the most and had 25 points in 75 games.

I think think the reason people think Horak is better is that last year Backlund was expect to take the next step and become and 30-40 point center with good 2 way ability but his season was plagued with injuries and many felt resentment towards him for it. So when Horak who was the only real player traded for Erixon made the team and had some success people moved their hopes to him. I think it is pretty obvious that Backlund is the better player.

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11-05-2012, 01:01 PM
  #49
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Not be too argumentative (guess I can't help it) but I don't see why people view Horak as having transitioned better to the NHL. Horak put up 11 points in 61 games as a 20 year old in the NHL. Backlund, at the same age, put up 10 points in 23 games.

Backlund didn't make the team out of camp, but that was a Flames team with legitimate centre depth, and Backlund wasn't the centrepiece of a trade that involved having to give up the Flames' highest-rated prospect.

edit: Just to add to Gleninator's last post: last season, despite being on the 3rd line, Backs was matched up against top 6 players. He played better opponents from a greater territorial disadvantage than anyone on the team (polar opposite of the way Horak's line was handled); Iginla/Jokinen lines were given greater territorial advantage against top 6 players, Blair Jones was used as a checker against bottom 6ers, and Horak was treated with kid gloves (nothing wrong with that at his age, but it's important when comparing him to Backlund). In terms of possession numbers against bottom 6 players, Horak did okay, whereas Backlund absolutely murdered them in previous seasons when he was on the 4th line.

Horak may have taken a significant step forward. He may end up being a top 6 centre. At this point, however, I would consider him a complete unknown until he actually performs that way in the NHL. Until then, Backlund was historically the better player at the same age, and is more likely to hit that top 6 capability.


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11-05-2012, 01:05 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
The second point is not true even if people believe it, Backlund averaged more than 3 minutes a night of ES time a game and also saw almost a minute more on the power play than Horak. Horak moved lines a fair bit but his 3 top played with forwards were Byron, Tko, Jackman in comparison Backlund who moved around alot played with Stemps, Iginla, Comeau. So I would say that Horak played with the 4th liners and Backlund played with the 3rd liners. The year before Backlund played with Hagman, Glencross and Iginla the most and had 25 points in 75 games.

I think think the reason people think Horak is better is that last year Backlund was expect to take the next step and become and 30-40 point center with good 2 way ability but his season was plagued with injuries and many felt resentment towards him for it. So when Horak who was the only real player traded for Erixon made the team and had some success people moved their hopes to him. I think it is pretty obvious that Backlund is the better player.
I remember Horak playing a hell of a lot with GlenX, maybe I am mistaken though.

Backlund may have played more minutes but those minutes were much harder minutes. Backlund played a handful of games with Iggy last year, and some were while injured/recovering.

Saying he played with Hagman kind of proves the opposite of your point as Hagman played like garbage most of last season.

EDIT: Also, Backlunds MPG is going to be inflated due to how few games he played, he was on the top line to start the season before his injury.


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