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Old
11-04-2012, 06:15 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Because Holland has better offensive tools? He has great chemistry with Palmieri. Bonino's skating is going to hold him back, regardless besides the top line, none of the other lines we have distinguish themselves above the rest as a second scoring line.
Bonino had exactly the same chemistry with Palmieri, the year before when Palmieri wasn't as good. People seem to forget that for some reason.

I just think people are overrating Holland a bit due to him doing well in the AHL. Getzlaf and Perry tore up the AHL to a significantly larger degree and started with 4th line minutes. Granted, the team was deeper then, but a little perspective is needed here between potential and current ability IMO.

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11-04-2012, 06:20 PM
  #102
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Am I the only one that feels that Winnik - Koivu - Cogliano would be a pretty solid defensive line? Winnik provides some size and the other two are damned good defensively. It would allow RPG/PPG to get some time away from playing defense.

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11-04-2012, 06:24 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Am I the only one that feels that Winnik - Koivu - Cogliano would be a pretty solid defensive line? Winnik provides some size and the other two are damned good defensively. It would allow RPG/PPG to get some time away from playing defense.
Imo they need Devo instead of Cogliano, because of the physical strenght. Cogs and Koivu together are too small together to make decent shutdown line.

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11-04-2012, 06:32 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Kalvinators View Post
Imo they need Devo instead of Cogliano, because of the physical strenght. Cogs and Koivu together are too small together to make decent shutdown line.
But are we really sure that DSP is a good defensive player at this point in his career? I think he can become a good defensive forward, but right now I see him as more of a 30 point winger that is about average defensively and is physical. I'm really not sure where Devo is going to fit in the lineup. I hope they can find him linemates that allow him to use his physical strength to win battles along the boards. Not really sure if putting a 20 year old raw winger in a shutdown role is a great idea.

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11-04-2012, 06:38 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
But are we really sure that DSP is a good defensive player at this point in his career? I think he can become a good defensive forward, but right now I see him as more of a 30 point winger that is about average defensively and is physical. I'm really not sure where Devo is going to fit in the lineup. I hope they can find him linemates that allow him to use his physical strength to win battles along the boards. Not really sure if putting a 20 year old raw winger in a shutdown role is a great idea.
Right now it's hard to gauge him because he's playing in the AHL, but he is definitely one of the best defensive forwards down there at the moment. He may not be making the big plays, but I've noticed him making a lot of the little ones that might slip by at times. He's basically our utility forward. As I said, though, the league he's in could be giving off false positives.

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11-04-2012, 06:44 PM
  #106
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Shutdown lines aren't always built with big, physical players. A line of Koivu/Cogliano/Winnik should be good defenisvely. John Madden and Jay Pandolfo used to be one the best shutdown duos, and neither were big or especially physical. It would just be another style than the Pahlsson line, and they wouldn't be as effective, but who would? It's probably the best shutdown line in the league of the last seven years we are trying to replace. It doesn't matter which guys you put together, the likelyhood of them being that good are very slim. All the Ducks really need is a 3rd line that takes care of their own, while being able to chip in offensively here and there.


Last edited by Elvs: 11-04-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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11-04-2012, 06:56 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Am I the only one that feels that Winnik - Koivu - Cogliano would be a pretty solid defensive line? Winnik provides some size and the other two are damned good defensively. It would allow RPG/PPG to get some time away from playing defense.
I think a combination of two of Cogs/Winnik/DSP and Koivu would be an ideal third line. The only reason I included DSP there in my lineup is because of his size & strength but he's obviously the most raw of all of them.

And to add to what Elvstrand said, from the trade deadline on in 08-09, the Miller - Marchant - Niedermayer was a very good third line for us and Nieds was the only one of the three with above average NHL size. So I agree that Winnik - Koivu - Cogs could work well. Winnik and Cogs would both generate a lot of chances with their speed.

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11-04-2012, 09:39 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Ducks DVM View Post
Bonino had exactly the same chemistry with Palmieri, the year before when Palmieri wasn't as good. People seem to forget that for some reason.

I just think people are overrating Holland a bit due to him doing well in the AHL. Getzlaf and Perry tore up the AHL to a significantly larger degree and started with 4th line minutes. Granted, the team was deeper then, but a little perspective is needed here between potential and current ability IMO.
current ability shows Holland ripping up the AHL right now, while we have no idea what Bonino is doing

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11-04-2012, 09:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
current ability shows Holland ripping up the AHL right now, while we have no idea what Bonino is doing
He was ripping up the AHL a year ago. Hopefully Bonino is working on his skating and enjoying Italy.

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11-04-2012, 10:12 PM
  #110
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Beleskey(Palmieri)-Getz-Perry
Ryan-Bonino- Selanne
Winnik-Koivu-Cogliano
Palmieri(Beleskey)-Holland-Staubitz

DSP stays in AHL unless a call up. He stayed with the big club last time becaue he could not go to the AHL, he would have had to go to Juniors. He would not have grown playing against the kids so they kept him in NHL. Plus we did not really have anyone better at the time. This way he can work on being a better all around player

If they kept DSP, then Holland stays in the AHL.

Palmieri-Getz-Perry
Ryan-Bonino-Selanne
Winnik-Koivu-Beleskey
DSP-Cogliano-Staubitz


Sbisa - Lydman - top shutdown line
Allen-Souray 3rd pairing
Fowler-Beauch - offensive pairing


Last edited by OCSportsfan: 11-04-2012 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Defense
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11-04-2012, 10:27 PM
  #111
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for those who are forgetting about Bonino, he was a plus 1 on the team last year and was developing a pretty good rapport wtih Ryan at the end. I would have put Palmieri on that line, but Selane has to play there for at least this year.

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11-04-2012, 10:27 PM
  #112
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I can't really see Palmieri and DSP not making the team. I feel like they're pretty close to being locks. Holland I'd give an 80% chance that he makes the team (I just think BB likes him, and he's done very good in the AHL so far). Etem isn't making the team. I don't think Vatanen is going to make the team right away, but the good thing is that he'll probably spend plenty of time in Anaheim because of the injury prone Souray, and the older veterans like Beauch, Lydman, and Allen. Lindholm will probably get a couple games with the Ducks at some point this season. Especially if he keeps playing like this.

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11-04-2012, 10:39 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
current ability shows Holland ripping up the AHL right now, while we have no idea what Bonino is doing
No, he's performing about as well as Palmieri did last year, and Bonino did the year before. Neither of them excelled in their first NHL call-ups. Getzlaf ripped it up with 33 points in 17 AHL games. Perry ripped it up with 34 points in 19 games. 10 points in 8 games is very good, but it isn't ripping it up.


Last edited by Ducks DVM: 11-04-2012 at 11:21 PM.
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11-04-2012, 11:03 PM
  #114
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I'd like to see Palmieri at LW with GP or on a line of Ryan-Bonino-Palmieri. I think they would develop some chemistry.

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11-04-2012, 11:15 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
current ability shows Holland ripping up the AHL right now, while we have no idea what Bonino is doing
Holland isn't doing any better than Bonino did, and Holland has an improved Palmieri with him. How is that an advantage for Holland?

I'll be the first to say that I think Holland's tool box could allow him to be the better player, when it's all said and done, but I can't really think of a single thing that makes Holland a better option right now. Bonino is ahead of him developmentally. Not to mention, Bonino worked hard to improve his skating last off-season. It stands to reason he would have done the same this off-season as well. Why can't Bonino improve his skating enough that it isn't holding him back?

Bonino started to look pretty good in the NHL last season, and like it or not that's something Holland hasn't done. Where Holland is now in the AHL, Bonino was two years ago.

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11-04-2012, 11:21 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
Holland isn't doing any better than Bonino did, and Holland has an improved Palmieri with him. How is that an advantage for Holland?

I'll be the first to say that I think Holland's tool box could allow him to be the better player, when it's all said and done, but I can't really think of a single thing that makes Holland a better option right now. Bonino is ahead of him developmentally. Not to mention, Bonino worked hard to improve his skating last off-season. It stands to reason he would have done the same this off-season as well. Why can't Bonino improve his skating enough that it isn't holding him back?

Bonino started to look pretty good in the NHL last season, and like it or not that's something Holland hasn't done. Where Holland is now in the AHL, Bonino was two years ago.
True. Personally, I'd be THRILLED if BOTH of these guys showed they were legit NHL point producers. That would pretty much completely eliminate the potential blow of losing Koivu to retirement.

I just don't know what BB has in mind for Holland next year if he gives Bonino the 2C job. Does anyone think they'd play Holland on the 4th line? I know they said they wanted to roll 4 lines. Hopefully the competition will be because Bonino and Holland both prove to be solid options; not because both of them prove to be not ready for second line center work.

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11-04-2012, 11:26 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
True. Personally, I'd be THRILLED if BOTH of these guys showed they were legit NHL point producers. That would pretty much completely eliminate the potential blow of losing Koivu to retirement.

I just don't know what BB has in mind for Holland next year if he gives Bonino the 2C job. Does anyone think they'd play Holland on the 4th line? I know they said they wanted to roll 4 lines. Hopefully the competition will be because Bonino and Holland both prove to be solid options; not because both of them prove to be not ready for second line center work.
I'd guess the plan is to hope that Bonino can hold down the 2C next year while Koivu holds down the 3C while Holland gets used to the NHL as the 4C. Keep in mind BB likes a 4th line that plays actual minutes, not 3 minutes for a non-enforcing enforcer and 2 guys who just try to run into stuff at high speed for 4-5 minutes a game, so the 4th line will actually get him real experience. I'd suspect the long term goal is to get Holland to the 2C and Bonino to the 3C, but they'll use Koivu as a 1 year buffer to help them both along.

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11-04-2012, 11:28 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
True. Personally, I'd be THRILLED if BOTH of these guys showed they were legit NHL point producers. That would pretty much completely eliminate the potential blow of losing Koivu to retirement.

I just don't know what BB has in mind for Holland next year if he gives Bonino the 2C job. Does anyone think they'd play Holland on the 4th line? I know they said they wanted to roll 4 lines. Hopefully the competition will be because Bonino and Holland both prove to be solid options; not because both of them prove to be not ready for second line center work.
Holland doesn't exactly make sense on the fourth line. His skill-set is more suited to be playing with skilled wingers on the 2nd line, and be sheltered with offensive zone starts and the like. Bonino could be a great 4th line center with Beleskey/Staubitz and Winnik, but it's almost slighting him to play him so low after he's shown so much, and so much more than Holland has.

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11-04-2012, 11:29 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by AngelDuck View Post
True. Personally, I'd be THRILLED if BOTH of these guys showed they were legit NHL point producers. That would pretty much completely eliminate the potential blow of losing Koivu to retirement.

I just don't know what BB has in mind for Holland next year if he gives Bonino the 2C job. Does anyone think they'd play Holland on the 4th line? I know they said they wanted to roll 4 lines. Hopefully the competition will be because Bonino and Holland both prove to be solid options; not because both of them prove to be not ready for second line center work.
They could put Holland on the wing, until he either surpasses someone at pivot, or until a spot opens up. If Holland keeps playing like this in the AHL, I think he'll give Anaheim a pretty good reason to find room for him. As much as he could put the minutes and responsibility to good use, you'd really like to see a good prospect producing for your team; not some other team. At any rate, Holland has a pretty versatile toolbox, so I'd expect him to be able to handle the wing for a while.

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11-04-2012, 11:30 PM
  #120
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I'd guess the plan is to hope that Bonino can hold down the 2C next year while Koivu holds down the 3C while Holland gets used to the NHL as the 4C. Keep in mind BB likes a 4th line that plays actual minutes, not 3 minutes for a non-enforcing enforcer and 2 guys who just try to run into stuff at high speed for 4-5 minutes a game, so the 4th line will actually get him real experience. I'd suspect the long term goal is to get Holland to the 2C and Bonino to the 3C, but they'll use Koivu as a 1 year buffer to help them both along.
I'd personally love to see the Ducks sign Boyd Gordon this off-season to help round out our PK. Experience with BB, versatile in a sense that he can play wing if Rakell is ready to break into the NHL, and a 4th center if he doesn't. Seems like an everyman that could really benefit the Ducks.

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11-04-2012, 11:34 PM
  #121
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They could put Holland on the wing, until he either surpasses someone at pivot, or until a spot opens up. If Holland keeps playing like this in the AHL, I think he'll give Anaheim a pretty good reason to find room for him. As much as he could put the minutes and responsibility to good use, you'd really like to see a good prospect producing for your team; not some other team. At any rate, Holland has a pretty versatile toolbox, so I'd expect him to be able to handle the wing for a while.
That's an interesting option. He certainly has the shot to play wing. This could sound totally crazy, but what about him playing with Getzlaf and Perry? He's big and could probably create some space for Getz and Perry. Plus, he shoots left handed which is something Ryan / DSP / Palmieri don't.

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11-04-2012, 11:40 PM
  #122
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If Holland doesn't come up to play centre, would Cogs be at centre? We have Getz, Koivu, Bonino and I'm not sure if I'm forgetting somebody else. Also, I am in support of seeing what he can do at W.

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11-04-2012, 11:44 PM
  #123
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If Holland doesn't come up to play centre, would Cogs be at centre? We have Getz, Koivu, Bonino and I'm not sure if I'm forgetting somebody else. Also, I am in support of seeing what he can do at W.
I would assume so. The Ducks press release listed Winnik as a C when we signed him, but he's really not. It wouldn't look too bad, but Cogs is brutal at C...

Palmieri/DSP - Getzlaf - Perry
Ryan - Koivu/Bonino - Selanne
Winnik - Bonino/Koivu - DSP/Palmieri
Beleskey - Cogliano - Staubitz

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11-04-2012, 11:58 PM
  #124
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Holland isn't doing any better than Bonino did, and Holland has an improved Palmieri with him. How is that an advantage for Holland?
To be fair to Holland, this years AHL is of a much higher standard than last years AHL where Bonino had similar production with 22 points in 19 games.

As for the Holland/Bonino argument I think whoever is the better player through whatever preseason games/camp we may see should get the 2nd line job to start with. It's not hard to change the lines if things are not working. The one thing I really want to see though is Ryan and Teemu playing together. Teemu deserves a legitimate top 6 forward to work with.

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11-05-2012, 01:05 AM
  #125
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IIRC, Perry played LW when Lupul was put on a line with the twins back in 09-10, so I'm pretty sure he could play there if Palmieri can't adjust.

Here's another lineup possibility:

Perry-Getzlaf-Palmieri
Ryan-Holland-Selanne
Cogliano-Koivu-DSP
Winnik-Bonino-Beleskey
Staubitz

Damn, we really have a screwy lineup.... it's going to take a while for everybody to find their proper spot in the lineup. Literally 5/6 of the lineup could be switched around (6/7 different guys can play center!), with the only constants being Perry and Getzlaf on the 1st line.

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