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Old
11-04-2012, 11:54 AM
  #151
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
See, and this is where I disagree with others when it comes to Couturier. He's a very good skater. He might not be a burner, but he can certainly skate. The way people talk about Couturier, you'd think he was Michal Handzus in terms of skating ability.

Couturier's skating style was a little awkward when he first arrived. However, I suggest people watch some Adirondack games and see just how much his skating has improved. He's so strong on his feet and more important, he has a very strong stride. He's a lot like Primeau in the sense that Keith wasn't the fastest of skaters either, but when they bull rush, there's nothing that can really stop them. That's what Couturier is like.

Maybe it's just me, but I think the whole notion that Couturier's skating will hold him back from being an elite forward is a little far fetched. There have been other elite forwards in the league that have been worse skaters than Couturier, so I really don't think skating will be what holds him back. I think it will be the role that Laviolette uses him in in Philadelphia that will hold him back (although I see Laviolette eventually using Couturier as the top line center with Giroux and Schenn flanking him on the wings).
Well, to be fair, my 60-70 point projection is hardly Handzus'-like.

But, generally, speaking, I agree, though I'm hard-pressed to think of a PPG+ forward who has poorer skating than Couturier?

It's by far his weakest attribute, I think, but that says more about the strength of his overall gameplay than his skating ability.

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11-04-2012, 01:04 PM
  #152
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The value is there, but neither teams would do it I think. Judging by the comments in this thread too I'd say that's pretty accurate.

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11-04-2012, 03:47 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I'm not sure what you are saying, to be honest.

Pretty much all anyone used advanced stats for here was to show that Gardiner did not play against the toughest competition, got quite a few offensive zone starts, etc.

Check out those numbers for Couturier...

Besides, all anyone said re: Couturier was that he was the Flyers best defensive forward. You've literally not offered a single argument, substantiated or otherwise, to dispute that.... If he wasn't, who was?
Yes, I did check out those numbers for Couturier, and they say he wasn't the best defensive forward. So either the advanced statistics are flawed, the argument against Gardiner is void, and your coach is stupid, or Couturier wasn't the best defensive forward.

For argument's sake, let us say that Couturier played all 14 minutes against top opposition (which is so laughable my sides hurt, but for argument's sake). Now let's say Gardiner played 14 minutes against the same top opposition, and the remaining 7-8 minutes against lesser competition. Gardiner would have worse advanced statistics, but how is he worse defensively?

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I don't care about any statistics. I watched every single game that Couturier played last year. He was by and far the best defensive forward on the team. It's a widely accepted fact
Oh so NOW we don't care about statistics. Only when talking about Couturier. Funny.

Guess what. I watched every single game that Gardiner played last year, and a whole bunch of Couturier too.

Also funny how it was this so-called "widely accepted fact" only after the playoffs. Then again, this site has the memory of a goldfish.

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11-04-2012, 08:09 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Well, to be fair, my 60-70 point projection is hardly Handzus'-like.

But, generally, speaking, I agree, though I'm hard-pressed to think of a PPG+ forward who has poorer skating than Couturier?

It's by far his weakest attribute, I think, but that says more about the strength of his overall gameplay than his skating ability.
Oh, I'm not poking at you or anything like that. I also think that Couturier is much more than a David Backes-type forward with regards to his ability (I still see a lot of Ron Francis in Couturier's game).

In terms of Sean's skating, I think as current point per game players go, Sean's skating is right up there with guys like Anze Kopitar, Jason Pominville, James Neal, Jason Spezza, etc.....He certainly didn't look out of place skating against them in games.

And Whydidijoin, with regards to Couturier, a few things need to be addressed. He was his team's best defensive forward. He spent 2:41 of ice time per game that was strictly short handed time. In terms of the regular season, Couturier spent a total of 207:41 of ice time in short handed situations, which lead all rookie forwards. The second leading forward was Adam Henrique and he had 132:06 ice time. The only rookie that played more minutes short handed than Couturier was Jared Cowan of Ottawa and he's strictly a defensive defenseman. With regards to Gardiner (who I really like and think has top 2 potential), Couturier even played more minutes than him short handed (Gardiner played 131:26).

In terms of Power Play time, Couturier played next to no PP time. In terms of rookies, Couturier played a total of 34:32 on the power play, a whopping 26 seconds of ice time per game. As for Gardiner, he played 148:19 on the power play, which works out to 1:58 per game on the power play.

In terms of total ice time, Couturier averaged 14:08 of ice time per game. Gardiner averaged 17:51 of ice time per game. When you put it all together, Gardiner only scored 3 more points than Couturier while averaging 3 minutes more ice time per game and around a minute and half more time on the power play per game. As well, with regards to forwards, only two other 19 year olds played more than Couturier - Landeskog and Nugent-Hopkins. And I think it's fair to say that they played on teams that weren't as deep as the Flyers. I'm willing to bet that if Couturier played for Edmonton or Colorado, he gets just as much ice time as those two and puts up just as good as numbers. Let's also not forget that unlike Landeskog or Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier's linemates were primarily Maxim Talbot and Zac Rinaldo. Nugent-Hopkins got to play with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle while Landeskog got to play with O'Reilly and Milan Hedjuk and then Steve Downie.

Linemates and ice time definitely play a big role and when you consider Couturier was given table scraps, he certainly exceeded expectations. This year in a loaded AHL, we're seeing what Couturier can really do when given the opportunity. That can't be denied.

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11-04-2012, 08:31 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
And Whydidijoin, with regards to Couturier, a few things need to be addressed. He was his team's best defensive forward. He spent 2:41 of ice time per game that was strictly short handed time. In terms of the regular season, Couturier spent a total of 207:41 of ice time in short handed situations, which lead all rookie forwards. The second leading forward was Adam Henrique and he had 132:06 ice time. The only rookie that played more minutes short handed than Couturier was Jared Cowan of Ottawa and he's strictly a defensive defenseman. With regards to Gardiner (who I really like and think has top 2 potential), Couturier even played more minutes than him short handed (Gardiner played 131:26).
Leading all rookie forwards in shorthanded ice time doesn't make him the team's best defensive player. Even being the best defensive rookie, which SHTOI has little relation to, doesn't make him the best defensive player on Philly.

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
In terms of Power Play time, Couturier played next to no PP time. In terms of rookies, Couturier played a total of 34:32 on the power play, a whopping 26 seconds of ice time per game. As for Gardiner, he played 148:19 on the power play, which works out to 1:58 per game on the power play.
Great. Not sure how 2 minutes more of PP time is going to triple his overall production.

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
In terms of total ice time, Couturier averaged 14:08 of ice time per game. Gardiner averaged 17:51 of ice time per game. When you put it all together, Gardiner only scored 3 more points than Couturier while averaging 3 minutes more ice time per game and around a minute and half more time on the power play per game. As well, with regards to forwards, only two other 19 year olds played more than Couturier - Landeskog and Nugent-Hopkins. And I think it's fair to say that they played on teams that weren't as deep as the Flyers. I'm willing to bet that if Couturier played for Edmonton or Colorado, he gets just as much ice time as those two and puts up just as good as numbers. Let's also not forget that unlike Landeskog or Nugent-Hopkins, Couturier's linemates were primarily Maxim Talbot and Zac Rinaldo. Nugent-Hopkins got to play with Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle while Landeskog got to play with O'Reilly and Milan Hedjuk and then Steve Downie.
Not sure where you got those numbers from, but I doubt Couturier puts up the same numbers as Landeskog or RNH in their situations.

I also find it funny that you badmouth Talbot, who got more points than Couturier, supposedly on the same line, even though the facts don't really support this line story.

Philly was so incredibly deep that another rookie got the 4th most TOI/game among Philly forwards, while superstar and best defensive forward was left in 10th. Hmm.

Also one thing you forgot. GARDINER IS A DEFENSEMAN.

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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Linemates and ice time definitely play a big role and when you consider Couturier was given table scraps, he certainly exceeded expectations. This year in a loaded AHL, we're seeing what Couturier can really do when given the opportunity. That can't be denied.
He is not exactly tearing up the AHL, and this is a really small sample size. 2 goals and 10 points in 9 games. Hell, Gardiner has more goals than this guy with "the best wrist-shot on the team" in less games. I guess all you Philly fans should be clamoring to trade him for Sven Baertschi, right?

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:57 PM
  #156
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Sean Couturier is a much more valuable player.

A much more heralded player throughout the ranks, and is on a different stratosphere compared to Gardiner at the same age. It's not even close.

Couturier has been the better prospect, and will continue to be a better, and more valuable player compared to Gardiner.

He's the best defensive 18/19 year old rookie forward that I have ever seen. He also had the highest PPG out of any forward in his draft year. People are talking about how great of a year Scheifele is having for Barrie, well Couturier had a more impressive year when he was 17 compared to Scheifele's year now.

People just assume that Couturier has no offensive upside because they see his 27 points and think "Wow, that's awful for a player who was as hyped up as Couturier was". But they don't consider the situation he was in.

I have delved into the multitude of reasons as to why Couturier did not have an offensive explosion. But with the aforementioned reasons that I have stated before, his offensive production will increase.

Toronto would be creaming themselves if they had a blue-chip C like Couturier. They haven't had a C prospect with his pedigree in decades.

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11-04-2012, 09:06 PM
  #157
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Saying Couturier is much more valuable is as much an exaggeration as some of the things being said in favor of Gardiner.

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11-04-2012, 09:07 PM
  #158
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Saying Couturier is much more valuable is as much an exaggeration as some of the things being said in favor of Gardiner.
As a Flyers fan who prefers Couturier, I agree.

I think we're talking about a 1B C (ceiling) vs. a 2D (ceiling). Whichever you prefer, there's not a massive difference in value at their peak.

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11-04-2012, 09:24 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Leading all rookie forwards in shorthanded ice time doesn't make him the team's best defensive player. Even being the best defensive rookie, which SHTOI has little relation to, doesn't make him the best defensive player on Philly.


Great. Not sure how 2 minutes more of PP time is going to triple his overall production.


Not sure where you got those numbers from, but I doubt Couturier puts up the same numbers as Landeskog or RNH in their situations.

I also find it funny that you badmouth Talbot, who got more points than Couturier, supposedly on the same line, even though the facts don't really support this line story.

Philly was so incredibly deep that another rookie got the 4th most TOI/game among Philly forwards, while superstar and best defensive forward was left in 10th. Hmm.

Also one thing you forgot. GARDINER IS A DEFENSEMAN.


He is not exactly tearing up the AHL, and this is a really small sample size. 2 goals and 10 points in 9 games. Hell, Gardiner has more goals than this guy with "the best wrist-shot on the team" in less games. I guess all you Philly fans should be clamoring to trade him for Sven Baertschi, right?
You convinced me...the Flyers will keep their overrated false-messiah and still go to the playoffs the next ?? years and the Leafs can keep Gardiner and his #1D upside and languish in the basement like usual. Thanks for figuring this out for me.

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11-04-2012, 10:41 PM
  #160
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Oh so NOW we don't care about statistics. Only when talking about Couturier. Funny.

Guess what. I watched every single game that Gardiner played last year, and a whole bunch of Couturier too.

Also funny how it was this so-called "widely accepted fact" only after the playoffs. Then again, this site has the memory of a goldfish.
I've posted twice in this thread and haven't mentioned Gardiner once because I haven't watched him enough to form an opinion on him. I think that defense goes far beyond what any statistic can tell you. It's about instincts, timing, positioning, and a number of other imeasurable parts, all of which Couturier was routinely best at last year.

It was also known before the playoffs by most Flyers fans. The league became aware of it after he shut down Malkin (even though he had kept Malkin in check all year when he was on the ice). Laviolette knew how good he was out of camp and put him on the pk right away and put him in very important positions which he routinely excelled.

If you think any other forward on the Flyers was better defensively than Couturier, I'm really curious as to who it was. Everything I saw last year says otherwise

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11-04-2012, 11:14 PM
  #161
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I've posted twice in this thread and haven't mentioned Gardiner once because I haven't watched him enough to form an opinion on him. I think that defense goes far beyond what any statistic can tell you. It's about instincts, timing, positioning, and a number of other imeasurable parts, all of which Couturier was routinely best at last year.

It was also known before the playoffs by most Flyers fans. The league became aware of it after he shut down Malkin (even though he had kept Malkin in check all year when he was on the ice). Laviolette knew how good he was out of camp and put him on the pk right away and put him in very important positions which he routinely excelled.

If you think any other forward on the Flyers was better defensively than Couturier, I'm really curious as to who it was. Everything I saw last year says otherwise
I agree that defense goes far beyond what any statistic can tell you. That was part of the point I was trying to make.

I didn't see enough of all the players to say for sure who the best player defensively was. Couturier was very good at times, though I think it is a bit much to say he shut down Malkin, and I think it is too early to say he was the best defensive player. Picking out the "best" defensive player is a very difficult thing to do on any team, even if you watch every single game a team plays. There are so many things that factor in.

We must look at the shutdown defensemen, the players that played with him on his line, the shutdown line, the players who faced top opposition more or played more shorthanded/in defensive situations.

There is also a difference between playing great defense while you're playing 14 minutes a night and in shutdown mode, and playing great defense for 22 minutes a night while you're trying for offense as well. Most times, quality goes down when quantity goes up. How will he look when playing more minutes?

If Couturier truly was the best defensive player for Philly last year, that team was coached terribly.

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11-05-2012, 11:31 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
Leading all rookie forwards in shorthanded ice time doesn't make him the team's best defensive player. Even being the best defensive rookie, which SHTOI has little relation to, doesn't make him the best defensive player on Philly.
Does it matter that Peter Laviolette called Couturier their best defensive forward?

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...528&feedID=704

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Eighteen-year-old rookie Sean Couturier, besides logging 4:34 of PK action, was on the ice in the final minute with Boston pressing the attack.

Who would have expected a vote of confidence like that from coach Peter Laviolette in an opener, huh?

“Why not? He’s our best defensive player,” Laviolette said.


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11-05-2012, 11:37 AM
  #163
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Does it matter that Peter Laviolette called Couturier their best defensive forward?

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...528&feedID=704
Oh come on now... he was tremendous in the postseason but what is their own coach supposed to say? That's just not enough credibility to push it over the top.

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11-05-2012, 11:59 AM
  #164
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Oh come on now... he was tremendous in the postseason but what is their own coach supposed to say? That's just not enough credibility to push it over the top.
That was from game 1 of the regular season vs Boston...

Edit: I think it says something if his coach was calling him the best defensive player on the team from game 1 as a rookie. I never realized that before but I think most Flyer fans were aware of it by the end of the regular season.


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11-05-2012, 12:23 PM
  #165
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Couturier was by far the Flyers' best defensive forward for the regular season and playoffs. Anybody who says differently either didn't watch enough of the Flyers or has some agenda.

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11-05-2012, 12:25 PM
  #166
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Couturier was the Flyer's best defensive forward last year, at least from what I saw, and I watched every game.

That being said, I can't help but feel like he's not going to live up to the hype and expectations some have cast for him. He's going to be an excellent player regardless of how he progresses offensively, but some of the things I hear about him (i.e., going to be better than Giroux -- who Flyer fans consider a top 5 center, going to be a HOFer, that he's not going to be traded for anyone, etc.) are hard things to live up to.

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11-05-2012, 12:34 PM
  #167
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Couturier was the Flyer's best defensive forward last year, at least from what I saw, and I watched every game.

That being said, I can't help but feel like he's not going to live up to the hype and expectations some have cast for him. He's going to be an excellent player regardless of how he progresses offensively, but some of the things I hear about him (i.e., going to be better than Giroux -- who Flyer fans consider a top 5 center, going to be a HOFer, that he's not going to be traded for anyone, etc.) are hard things to live up to.
Never heard anybody say that stuff.

But yes Couturier is the Flyers best defensive forward and I don't even know how that could be questioned if you watched more then a few Flyers games from the beginning of the regular season to the post season.

I think the trade maybe fairly close value wise but the incentive to make this trade just isn't there for either side IMO. So no from both I would guess.

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11-05-2012, 12:37 PM
  #168
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I think he can end up being as valuable to the Flyers as Giroux, but I doubt he ever surpasses Giroux's offensive abilities. He likely won't even come close.

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11-05-2012, 12:56 PM
  #169
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Oh come on now... he was tremendous in the postseason but what is their own coach supposed to say? That's just not enough credibility to push it over the top.
I think the point is, Couturier was on the ice for the critical last shifts of the game, protecting the league. It was the 1st game of the season--thus backing up Laviolette's earlier comments tabout Couturier being the team's best defensive forward even in training camp....

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11-05-2012, 02:17 PM
  #170
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Never heard anybody say that stuff.

But yes Couturier is the Flyers best defensive forward and I don't even know how that could be questioned if you watched more then a few Flyers games from the beginning of the regular season to the post season.

I think the trade maybe fairly close value wise but the incentive to make this trade just isn't there for either side IMO. So no from both I would guess.
To be fair it was just one person on a different board, but nevertheless, that's the kind of stuff that winds up driving players away here when they don't live up to expectations.

I agree though, if Couturier wasn't the Flyers best forward, who was?

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11-05-2012, 02:20 PM
  #171
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I think he can end up being as valuable to the Flyers as Giroux, but I doubt he ever surpasses Giroux's offensive abilities. He likely won't even come close.
I think it's extremely unlikely he'll surpass Giroux offensively, but IMO, I think 70 pts is a realistic expectation for Couturier in a few years. He gets compared to Jordan Staal and I think it's about as close a comparision as you can make.

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11-05-2012, 05:00 PM
  #172
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I think it's extremely unlikely he'll surpass Giroux offensively, but IMO, I think 70 pts is a realistic expectation for Couturier in a few years. He gets compared to Jordan Staal and I think it's about as close a comparision as you can make.
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11-06-2012, 08:32 AM
  #173
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That was from game 1 of the regular season vs Boston...

Edit: I think it says something if his coach was calling him the best defensive player on the team from game 1 as a rookie. I never realized that before but I think most Flyer fans were aware of it by the end of the regular season.
So what a coach/gm says holds value ah? Well how did that work out for Luke schenn .. I can name a bunch of players a coach over hypes. Doesn't make it true. And now I read at worst couturier will be j stall or Kessler .. At worst? And people wonder why allot say he is overrated .

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11-06-2012, 09:11 AM
  #174
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Is someone seriously arguing that Couturier was not the best defensive forward on the flyers last year.

As much as I could delve into the team set up from last year, it's much easier just to put this out there.

Couturier was matched up against Malkin in the first shift of the first game in the play-offs. Not half way through after we found that he had a defensive game, the very first second. You don't do that unless you consider him to be your best defensive asset to attempt to stop the most dangerous player in the NHL at the time.

But yeah, he was never out there in the last minute of the game to protect a 1 goal lead either................

Some people really do just love arguing for the sake of it.

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11-06-2012, 09:15 AM
  #175
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Is someone seriously arguing that Couturier was not the best defensive forward on the flyers last year.

As much as I could delve into the team set up from last year, it's much easier just to put this out there.

Couturier was matched up against Malkin in the first shift of the first game in the play-offs. Not half way through after we found that he had a defensive game, the very first second. You don't do that unless you consider him to be your best defensive asset to attempt to stop the most dangerous player in the NHL at the time.

But yeah, he was never out there in the last minute of the game to protect a 1 goal lead either................

Some people really do just love arguing for the sake of it.
Stupid question, but who matched up against Crosby?

Vankiller Whale is offline   Reply With Quote
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