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11-05-2012, 01:20 PM
  #51
TheHudlinator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
I remember Horak playing a hell of a lot with GlenX, maybe I am mistaken though.

Backlund may have played more minutes but those minutes were much harder minutes. Backlund played a handful of games with Iggy last year, and some were while injured/recovering.

Saying he played with Hagman kind of proves the opposite of your point as Hagman played like garbage most of last season.

EDIT: Also, Backlunds MPG is going to be inflated due to how few games he played, he was on the top line to start the season before his injury.
Horak didn't play that much with GlenX maybe a few games and I wasn't saying Backlund helped Hagman but that was one of his top players he played with and since he played with Glencross and Iginla as well it would be safe to say that the majority of his time was not on the 4th line.

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11-05-2012, 01:22 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Horak didn't play that much with GlenX maybe a few games and I wasn't saying Backlund helped Hagman but that was one of his top players he played with and since he played with Glencross and Iginla as well it would be safe to say that the majority of his time was not on the 4th line.
Sorry, I am counting both last season and the season before, as I think prior season stalled his development, and he played 4th line most of the prior season. (Also gives us a larger sample size to work with)

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11-05-2012, 01:30 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Sorry, I am counting both last season and the season before, as I think prior season stalled his development, and he played 4th line most of the prior season. (Also gives us a larger sample size to work with)
Those are the season's befores top players he played a about evenly with the 1st line the 2nd line and the 4th line.

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11-05-2012, 01:36 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Those are the season's befores top players he played a about evenly with the 1st line the 2nd line and the 4th line.
Not sure I follow... He was on the 4th line far, far more than the top-6. He was with Jackman almost every game for large stretches of the season. The only time he really saw top-6 minutes was when injuries struck.

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11-05-2012, 02:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Not sure I follow... He was on the 4th line far, far more than the top-6. He was with Jackman almost every game for large stretches of the season. The only time he really saw top-6 minutes was when injuries struck.
Not according to his usage charts

in 2010-2011 Backlund played 26.6% of the 5v5 with Glencross, he played with Hagman 26% of the time and Iginla 23.3%. All 3 played almost none with each other and Hagman was primarly on the 3rd line before be put on waivers. So Backlund played much more off the 4th line then on in fact he only played with Tko and Jackman 22% of the time. Of course he played less minutes per game with Jackman and Tko but he played much more than just on the 4th line.

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11-05-2012, 03:11 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Not according to his usage charts

in 2010-2011 Backlund played 26.6% of the 5v5 with Glencross, he played with Hagman 26% of the time and Iginla 23.3%. All 3 played almost none with each other and Hagman was primarly on the 3rd line before be put on waivers. So Backlund played much more off the 4th line then on in fact he only played with Tko and Jackman 22% of the time. Of course he played less minutes per game with Jackman and Tko but he played much more than just on the 4th line.
Where are you getting said charts?

Also Hagman was on the 4th line with Kosto/Jackman for a period before being put on waivers.

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11-05-2012, 03:34 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Where are you getting said charts?

Also Hagman was on the 4th line with Kosto/Jackman for a period before being put on waivers.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...24+25+26+27+28

Hagman played very little on the 4th line maybe 10 games but it wasn't much.

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11-05-2012, 03:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Not be too argumentative (guess I can't help it) but I don't see why people view Horak as having transitioned better to the NHL. Horak put up 11 points in 61 games as a 20 year old in the NHL. Backlund, at the same age, put up 10 points in 23 games.

Backlund didn't make the team out of camp, but that was a Flames team with legitimate centre depth, and Backlund wasn't the centrepiece of a trade that involved having to give up the Flames' highest-rated prospect.

edit: Just to add to Gleninator's last post: last season, despite being on the 3rd line, Backs was matched up against top 6 players. He played better opponents from a greater territorial disadvantage than anyone on the team (polar opposite of the way Horak's line was handled); Iginla/Jokinen lines were given greater territorial advantage against top 6 players, Blair Jones was used as a checker against bottom 6ers, and Horak was treated with kid gloves (nothing wrong with that at his age, but it's important when comparing him to Backlund). In terms of possession numbers against bottom 6 players, Horak did okay, whereas Backlund absolutely murdered them in previous seasons when he was on the 4th line.

Horak may have taken a significant step forward. He may end up being a top 6 centre. At this point, however, I would consider him a complete unknown until he actually performs that way in the NHL. Until then, Backlund was historically the better player at the same age, and is more likely to hit that top 6 capability.
It's the "hype train", if you will. Anybody recall when Bourque scored 5 goals in 2 games and suddenly he was better than Iginla?

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11-05-2012, 03:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...24+25+26+27+28

Hagman played very little on the 4th line maybe 10 games but it wasn't much.
Thanks, so looking at this Backlund (761) played fewer minutes then : Jokinen (1097), Stajan (935) and Morisson (792). Despite playing 6 more Games than Morisson, 3 less than Stajan and 6 less than Jokinen.

So this idea that he was getting lots of ice time is just incorrect. He was 4th in ice time for our centers.

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11-05-2012, 04:07 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Thanks, so looking at this Backlund (761) played fewer minutes then : Jokinen (1097), Stajan (935) and Morisson (792). Despite playing 6 more Games than Morisson, 3 less than Stajan and 6 less than Jokinen.

So this idea that he was getting lots of ice time is just incorrect. He was 4th in ice time for our centers.
Thats one way to at it but if you look at his linemates he was only playing with the 4th line ~25% of the time which goes against the idea that he was on the 4th line. So when you say he was on the 4th line you mean played the 4th most average ice time of centers. Those are to different things.

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11-05-2012, 04:44 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Thats one way to at it but if you look at his linemates he was only playing with the 4th line ~25% of the time which goes against the idea that he was on the 4th line. So when you say he was on the 4th line you mean played the 4th most average ice time of centers. Those are to different things.
In terms of raw ES TOI, that's probably reasonably accurate. By number of games, however, he spent about half the season on the 4th line (I distinctly recall a mid-season stretch where he was limited to an average of 8-9 min/game). The raw total is affected significantly by the fact that Calgary's top line (Iginla in particular) hits roughly 20 min/night, while the 4th line, at least that season, was around or below 10 min/night. In order to comprise 25% of Backlund's ES TOI, he had to play a significant portion of his games on the 4th line.

It's also important to note that Backlund got less PP time than almost anyone on the team, including Tim Jackman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmurfin View Post
It's the "hype train", if you will. Anybody recall when Bourque scored 5 goals in 2 games and suddenly he was better than Iginla?
I definitely remember that hype train, and at times I was dangerously close to jumping on. Haha.

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11-05-2012, 04:50 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
In terms of raw ES TOI, that's probably reasonably accurate. By number of games, however, he spent about half the season on the 4th line (I distinctly recall a mid-season stretch where he was limited to an average of 8-9 min/game). The raw total is affected significantly by the fact that Calgary's top line (Iginla in particular) hits roughly 20 min/night, while the 4th line, at least that season, was around or below 10 min/night. In order to comprise 25% of Backlund's ES TOI, he had to play a significant portion of his games on the 4th line.

It's also important to note that Backlund got less PP time than almost anyone on the team, including Tim Jackman.



I definitely remember that hype train, and at times I was dangerously close to jumping on. Haha.
Backlund played 24 games with less than 10 minutes a game played and only played one game above 19 minutes. The vast majority of his games were between 12-15 minutes a game.

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11-05-2012, 05:13 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGleninator View Post
Backlund played 24 games with less than 10 minutes a game played and only played one game above 19 minutes. The vast majority of his games were between 12-15 minutes a game.
Yeah, my bad; that 20 min figure includes PP time (and my 4th line estimate was off; it's more like 11-12 min). Anyway, it looks like he split his games about evenly between the 1st, 3rd, and 4th lines. It ended up averaging out to 4th line minutes, though, even with his time on the other two lines. The only regular skaters he ended up ahead of in TOI/G were Tim Jackman and Freddy Modin.


Last edited by SmellOfVictory: 11-05-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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11-05-2012, 05:18 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Yeah, my bad; that 20 min figure generally includes PP time. Anyway, it looks like he split his games about evenly between the 1st, 3rd, and 4th lines. It ended up averaging out to 4th line minutes, though, even with his time on the other two lines.
Its all good that was all my point was. He did play on the 4th line and had success there but its not like he only played on the 4th line. Either way this next nhl season (when ever it is) will be a big one for him I personally still believe he can become a number 2 center much like Filppula in detroit and I see Horak being more of a Moss type player someone who can play 2nd or 3rd line and center or wing but isn't anything special any where.

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11-05-2012, 05:25 PM
  #65
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Yeah, I totally lost what the original debate was about at that point, to be honest. I was just throwing out numbers. It's nice that Backlund still has a few supporters around here aside from me. I honestly think he can/should be better than Filppula, although I'm not really a fan of Filppula to begin with.

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11-05-2012, 05:30 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Yeah, I totally lost what the original debate was about at that point, to be honest. I was just throwing out numbers. It's nice that Backlund still has a few supporters around here aside from me. I honestly think he can/should be better than Filppula, although I'm not really a fan of Filppula to begin with.
Filppula is a very sheltered player but plays very well in his role until Backlund has the same kind of success he won't get much respect. I really hope we see a Sven - Backlund combo as I think that could do alot for Backlunds offense.

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11-05-2012, 07:07 PM
  #67
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I wouldn't say Backlund obviously has a better toolbox than Horak. I would say Backlund is a more creative player with the puck and is capable of generating offensive chances. I would also say that Backlund has had quite a bit of difficulty finishing scoring opportunities in his career. I think Horak is just as if not more skilled than Backlund from what I've seen of him, last year he wasn't able to showcase a lot of that in the NHL because he wasn't physically mature enough to. I would say Horak is a slightly more intelligent player in terms of reading the play. I think both are very close in terms of their upside and skillset.

It'll be interesting to see how everything plays out over the next couple of seasons. I'm still optimistic Backlund can get it done. If he doesn't play up to his potential over the next 18 months, he may not have a job in the NHL.

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