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Old
11-05-2012, 02:27 PM
  #126
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Patrick Kane isn't the kind of guy you build a team around now?

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11-05-2012, 02:29 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Why are you put out? The Habs are developing a young core (Price/Subban/MaxPac/Galchenyuk) that they are building around. Downgrading Price to Luongo defies this plan (even though it includes Kane). Price is a key element to the Habs future and is essentially untouchable.
I'm put out because my proposal was hated equilaterally by Habs fans, even though they get 2 of the 3 best players in the deal, and I don't buy the "headcase" argument for either. No matter though. I won't continue to force it.

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As for your updated proposal in question i don't see the point in trading for Lack. Price is young and is our starter for the next decade. The Habs can address their depth in goal with one of their 3 x 2nd round picks in 2013. Or they can go the route of free agency. They simply have no need for a young netminder with potential unless something catosrophic happens to Price.
I don't get it. Don't trade a recent second rounder for a good young backup because you can always trade a 2nd rounder from next year(which is supposed to be a stronger draft)?

I've just often heard Habs fans lamenting they have no goalie prospects in the system, and thought they could use one in exchange for a similar piece at a position of strength who also happens to be a right-handed BC boy, perfect for the Canucks.

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11-05-2012, 02:31 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm a little put out, as I had really put some thought into this and tried addressing team needs.

Sort of OT, but would Montreal fans be willing to trade Thrower for Lack straight up? They have a lot of depth there(Subban, Gorges, Markov, Beaulieu, Tinordi) and I don't think the Canucks should roll with both an unproven starter and a rookie backup for a season. That way we could make room if a goalie had to be sent our way for a trade(like Theodore from Florida, who would make a lot of sense as a veteran backup), while Montreal solidifies their goaltending depth.
I think the signing of Desjardins indicates Montreal's plan to use stopgaps at present to deal with their lack of goalie depth. We have 4 top 60 picks next draft, I'd expect the plan to be to draft a goalie, or sign a young UFA out of college or from Europe. No real need to trade for Lack, especially if he were to go into a situation where he likely be able to beat out an entrenched starter that is a whole half a year older than him. I doubt he'd want to stay in that situation.

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11-05-2012, 02:35 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm put out because my proposal was hated equilaterally by Habs fans, even though they get 2 of the 3 best players in the deal, and I don't buy the "headcase" argument for either. No matter though. I won't continue to force it..
The downfall of your proposal was downgrading Price to Luongo. It just destroys everything the Habs are trying to do. They have young cornerstones at every position (Price/Subban/Galy/Maxpac). Removing Price from that equation upsets the entire building process.



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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I don't get it. Don't trade a recent second rounder for a good young backup because you can always trade a 2nd rounder from next year(which is supposed to be a stronger draft)?

I've just often heard Habs fans lamenting they have no goalie prospects in the system, and thought they could use one in exchange for a similar piece at a position of strength who also happens to be a right-handed BC boy, perfect for the Canucks.
What don't you understand? Habs don't need Lack. Thrower while a project has lots of potential. He is a gritty d-man who loves to "throw" em. A Wendall Clark type of player (back when he was a d-man). This is something that Habs fans are not willing to "throw" away to address a very minor need.

Habs fans who lament not having a goaltender prospect in the system are like Pens fans lamenting that they don't have a centerman prospect with first line potential. Bottom line is that there is no current need. The Habs can address the goaltending depth either through free agency or in future drafts. Lack has no future in the Habs organization. We are simply not "Lacking" at the goaltender position.

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11-05-2012, 02:37 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
Patrick Kane isn't the kind of guy you build a team around now?

Sure he is, for Chicago.

The Habs already have their pieces to build around. Patches, Subban, Gally and Price. If it costs the Habs one of these pieces + to get Kane. then no thanks.

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11-05-2012, 02:38 PM
  #131
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Some of the comments in this thread just have me flabbergasted. Yes I just used the word flabbergasted.

Cole equal or close to value to Luongo or Kane? Guess no one remembers his stint in Edmonton. I also heard someone describe him as a 30-goal scorer but if I read it correctly he's only scored 30 twice in his 10-season career (although he would have gotten there in 06-07 if not for injuries). I remember Cole as being a serviceable top 6 forward, a good complimentary player on a good team...but not someone who has the same value as a top 10 starting goaltender or a top line winger.

Happy early 34th birthday to Cole though!

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11-05-2012, 02:39 PM
  #132
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The great thing about Price is all it takes is a couple bad months to start the season and he will get run out of town anyway. We need to see a good Habs G prospect come up though, ideally with a French name.

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11-05-2012, 02:39 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm put out because my proposal was hated equilaterally by Habs fans, even though they get 2 of the 3 best players in the deal, and I don't buy the "headcase" argument for either. No matter though. I won't continue to force it.
And I dont by the Subban headcase arument. Yet it still exists. The concern is that Montreal is trying to build to the future. We have Price (25), Subban (23) and Patches (23) currently on the team with a ton of depth at D and forward in the prospect ranks. Luongo, in addition to having a pretty lousy long term cap it (which the Habs organization has been historically against) is not that young and wont nearly as effective when Montreal is ready to compete. Neither will Cole, but we have Patches and a ton of forward prospects to take his place. Also, we could sign his replacement through free agency. There are many good goalies out there, but its hard to find great ones. We'll stick with the one we have barring an overpayment.

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11-05-2012, 02:40 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The great thing about Price is all it takes is a couple bad months to start the season and he will get run out of town anyway.
Yep, just like he was run out of Montreal in 2009/2010 right? Son, you need to "Relax".

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11-05-2012, 02:41 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
The great thing about Price is all it takes is a couple bad months to start the season and he will get run out of town anyway. We need to see a good Habs G prospect come up though, ideally with a French name.
No he wont. A few bad months to start this season and ALL the talk will be about Mckinnon, Barkov, Jones, Drouin and which one to take with our good pick.

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11-05-2012, 02:46 PM
  #136
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I remember Cole as being a serviceable top 6 forward, a good complimentary player on a good team...but not someone who has the same value as a top 10 starting goaltender or a top line winger.
I have to admit that's kind of what I was expecting when the Habs signed Cole. If you watched the way he finished out last season, though, you'd be emphasizing the positive with him more like we Habs fans are doing. He was far better than advertised, far better than I expected.

Frankly, I don't think he can keep it up.

But anyway, I don't see anybody really disparaging Luongo too much, aside from the fact that no team with an already established and satisfactory goaltending situation would ever touch his contract. Kane is a fine player too, nobody is arguing Cole is better, just that we probably wouldn't be keen on paying the real price it would take to get Kane, whatever that might be. We'd stand pat with Cole instead and not throw in all the additional required elements it would take to make the upgrade.

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11-05-2012, 02:48 PM
  #137
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Sigh, this thread has far too many myths. So allow us to tackle them.

Price vs. Luongo

Be it statistically or individual play, Luongo has edged Price in every single season both have been starters. At best, you could make a bordering case they are equally good however, this argument is heavily reliant on factoring Price's potential being a contributing factor. That has no basis on which of the two is superiority in terms of ability, nor does contracts or age. Only when the debate shifts to value does Price win by a considerable amount for all the previously inadmissible reasons. To put into perspective, Price could command more than what Vancouver fans want for Schneider.

Value aside, Luongo is better.

Erik Cole as elite

Once again, no. He had a fantastic season despite the circus act otherwise occupying Montreal, but that does not make him elite. Such a title is generally reserved for consistent top end players or similar levels of success throughout their career; Cole is/has neither. In fact, we cannot say this past season was anything more than a flash in the pan, although I personally see Cole reaching 30 goals again. In the end, he is a excellent powerforward but has no business in the discussion of elite.

Patrick Kane is one-dimensional

Zero for three and counting. Kane played center last season despite having limited experience at that position, if any at all, and did so reasonably well. In addition, he has a solid passing and stick handling game but generally lackluster in his own zone. While Kane is undoubtedly offensive oriented. He is far from a slouch on the defensive aspects of the game.

Chicago has enough guns, they would be doing a disservice to use Kane is defensive roles. Coincidentally, this is precisely why Vancouver limits the Sedins to offense. And sure enough, people claim they are useless defensively.
------

With those aside, this trade, while far less detrimental than Hab fans are making it out to be, is still not great for Montreal. The acquisitions are largely lateral, excluding a reliance Eddie Lack will have a similar development chart to that of Price and Schneider. That is significant risk when you consider Montreal already has a fantastic young goalie. Why gamble when you don't have to?

Kane is the beard and butter here but Montreal is better advised to stay the course. They are barely a playoff team, let alone one who will challenge for the cup any time soon. Frankly, I see another low tier finish, which will allow them to draft their own Kane. In such a scenario they could also move Plekanec for a solid assets return. In short, Montreal is in a relatively good "rebuild/retool" position that acquiring Kane is unnecessary. Likewise, Luongo becomes either redundant or a hindrance for them.

To summarize, I would say:

Vancouver: Likely, despite somewhat buying high on Cole.
Chicago: Definitely; Price alone peeks their interest.
Montreal: May ponder but would ultimately refuse for the aforementioned reasons.


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11-05-2012, 02:54 PM
  #138
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Sure he is, for Chicago.

The Habs already have their pieces to build around. Patches, Subban, Gally and Price. If it costs the Habs one of these pieces + to get Kane. then no thanks.
But it wasn't about specific teams it was saying he isn't the player you build around. If you were starting a team he wold be a player you would pick to build your team around.

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Maybe if Kane was the kind of guy you could build around, but I don't think he is.
Nothing about specifics or over certain players but a blank statement of him not being a player you build around.

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11-05-2012, 02:58 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
But it wasn't about specific teams it was saying he isn't the player you build around. If you were starting a team he wold be a player you would pick to build your team around.



Nothing about specifics or over certain players but a blank statement of him not being a player you build around.
I think he can be one of the guys, not the main guy you build around.

You build a team around leaders, kane is a good player but is he a guy that others will follow? Does he set a good example on and off the ice? I have to admit I dont follow him or the Hawks much but what I do hear I would think the answer to both of those is no.


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11-05-2012, 03:02 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Sigh, this thread has far too many myths. So allow us to tackle them.

Price vs. Luongo

Be it statistically or individual play, Luongo has edged Price in every single season both have been starters. At best, you could make a bordering case they are equally good however, this argument is heavily reliant on factoring Price's potential being a contributing factor. That has no basis on which of the two is superiority in terms of ability, nor does contracts or age. Only when the debate shifts to value does Price win by a considerable amount for all the previously inadmissible reasons. To put into perspective, Price could command more than what Vancouver fans want for Schneider.

Value aside, Luongo is better.
I agree with most of what you wrote except that the basis of your argument for Luongo > Price in terms of play on the ice. Save % doesn't tell the complete story (Luongo at .919 while Price at .916). Price was the better goaltender last season and was consistent all season. If the 2011/2012 Luongo had to play behind the Habs poor/decimated defense his numbers would have fallen significantly.

Price is the better goaltender now.

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11-05-2012, 03:10 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I agree with most of what you wrote except that the basis of your argument for Luongo > Price in terms of play on the ice. Save % doesn't tell the complete story (Luongo at .919 while Price at .916). Price was the better goaltender last season and was consistent all season. If the 2011/2012 Luongo had to play behind the Habs poor/decimated defense his numbers would have fallen significantly.

Price is the better goaltender now.
Based on what would you say was Price better than Luongo? Luongo was constantly keeping us in games we had no business being in, and this was one of his best years so far. I believe the Canucks allowed the third most quality shots in the league, yet Luongo's numbers still remain more than respectable.

EDIT: Vancouver allowed 241 shots on net, Montreal allowed 207.

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11-05-2012, 03:11 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
I think he can be one of the guys, not the main guy you build around.

You build a team around leaders, kane is a good player but is he a guy that others will follow? Does he set a good example on and off the ice? I have to admit I dont follow him or the Hawks much but what I do hear I would think the answer to both of those is no.
You seem to be basing this on things that make you a captain, not a Franchise player.

You can build your team around leaders but I would personally build a team around skill then bring in veteran leadership.

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11-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #143
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Montreal DOES NOT ACCEPT!!!!!!!!!

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11-05-2012, 03:13 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Sigh, this thread has far too many myths. So allow us to tackle them.

Price vs. Luongo

Be it statistically or individual play, Luongo has edged Price in every single season both have been starters. At best, you could make a bordering case they are equally good however, this argument is heavily reliant on factoring Price's potential being a contributing factor. That has no basis on which of the two is superiority in terms of ability, nor does contracts or age. Only when the debate shifts to value does Price win by a considerable amount for all the previously inadmissible reasons. To put into perspective, Price could command more than what Vancouver fans want for Schneider.

Value aside, Luongo is better..
Yes, Luongo is better but price's seasons he was starting at a young age. Even then though, I will concede that Luongo is a better player and leader.

Still, knowing you're a fan of multiple teams, including the nucks, why trade Luongo in the first place? If a cup contender can't use an elite goalie and are willing to side on potential, why is it unreasonable the habs do the same? I agree Price is worth more than Schneider as well, but that only reinforces the situation. If Schneider is deemed valuable enough to trade Luongo, why is Price not deemed valuable enough to keep instead of Luongo?

I know you never said otherwise but just reinforcing my opinion here.

Erik Cole as elite

Quote:
Once again, no. He had a fantastic season despite the circus act otherwise occupying Montreal, but that does not make him elite. Such a title is generally reserved for consistent top end players or similar levels of success throughout their career; Cole is/has neither. In fact, we cannot say this past season was anything more than a flash in the pan, although I personally see Cole reaching 30 goals again. In the end, he is a excellent powerforward but has no business in the discussion of elite..
One guy said that and quite frankly, it's ridiculous. This 'myth' isn't even a myth, it was one guy trying to be ridiculous. Cole is a very good player but no where near great. I wouldn't say this season was a flash in the pan but I can agree that he's not consistently at this level. in 05-06 he was a PPG and he's had several years where he's had a higher PPG than last year. He just hit a higher goal total, he's still a 25-30 goal guy but it happens where he can reach more or less.

Quote:
Patrick Kane is one-dimensional

Zero for three and counting. Kane played center last season despite having limited experience at that position, if any at all, and did so reasonably well. In addition, he has a solid passing and stick handling game but generally lackluster in his own zone. While Kane is undoubtedly offensive oriented. He is far from a slouch on the defensive aspects of the game.

Chicago has enough guns, they would be doing a disservice to use Kane is defensive roles. Coincidentally, this is precisely why Vancouver limits the Sedins to offense. And sure enough, people claim they are useless defensively.
I agree with you, clearly people don't know that many top players can also play defensively but it's not playing to their strengths. Much more effecient to make a grinder block shots than patrick kane. Unless of course we're talking about an elite two-way player, which kane isn't. Still, doesn't make him a bad player.

Quote:
With those aside, this trade, while far less detrimental than Hab fans are making it out to be, is still not great for Montreal. The acquisitions are largely lateral, excluding a reliance Eddie Lack will have a similar development chart to that of Price and Schneider. That is significant risk when you consider Montreal already has a fantastic young goalie. Why gamble when you don't have to?

Kane is the beard and butter here but Montreal is better advised to stay the course. They are barely a playoff team, let alone one who will challenge for the cup any time soon. Frankly, I see another low tier finish, which will allow them to draft their own Kane. In such a scenario they could also move Plekanec for a solid assets return. In short, Montreal is in a relatively good "rebuild/retool" position that acquiring Kane is unnecessary. Likewise, Luongo becomes either redundant or a hindrance for them.

To summarize, I would say:

Vancouver: Likely, despite somewhat buying high on Cole.
Chicago: Definitely; Price alone peeks their interest.
Montreal: May ponder but would ultimately refuse for the aforementioned reasons.
I think it is that bad. The reality is the OP filled no needs for montreal. All he did was remove price and then CREATE a need that wasn't previously there and filled in luongo.

Habs aren't a contender and as you say, they should stay the course and build around their young assets. Getting Luongo and having a hole when he declines is pretty pointless.

Habs have a balanced core(Pacioretty, Subban, Price as the fixtures, 1 in each position) with reasonable blue chippers in Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, Galchenyuk to have most bases covered. Why disrupt that? Habs will stay the course and build for the future and address their needs with their new and improved development staff and managerial team. When the habs are 1 away from being a contender, we'll evaluate what that 1 piece would cost, until then, habs will continue under this course and reasonably so.

Also, this does not mean Luongo is garbage or he isn't worth anything or yada yada as some would claim. Just we have no use for him right now and we'll decline the offer and good luck with it. I think Vancouver should keep him but whatever.

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11-05-2012, 03:16 PM
  #145
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Based on what would you say was Price better than Luongo? Luongo was constantly keeping us in games we had no business being in, and this was one of his best years so far. I believe the Canucks allowed the third most quality shots in the league, yet Luongo's numbers still remain more than respectable.

EDIT: Vancouver allowed 241 shots on net, Montreal allowed 207.
Quality shots is subjective isn't it? Besides, I don't think the argument is wrong. Price had close numbers at a younger age with more GP and a team on the other side of the sectrum.

Doesn't mean I'll debate it though, Luongo is an excellent goalie and I'm more than willing to agree on the premise that he's the better player but I will never agree that he's just as valuable as Price.

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11-05-2012, 03:16 PM
  #146
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I agree with most of what you wrote except that the basis of your argument for Luongo > Price in terms of play on the ice. Save % doesn't tell the complete story (Luongo at .919 while Price at .916). Price was the better goaltender last season and was consistent all season. If the 2011/2012 Luongo had to play behind the Habs poor/decimated defense his numbers would have fallen significantly.

Price is the better goaltender now.
That is debatable actually. Vancouver's defense on the defensive side is actually overrated. We are essentially Dan Hamhuis and... that's about it. Not to mention our style is nearly the complete opposite of Montreal's. Vancouver has a tendency to leave their goalies out to dry, whereas Montreal borders on "the trap."

Luongo also played less games, but the misconception has it he lost his job rather than Schneider simply played that good. A good comparison was when Price "stole" Huet's job despite the latter playing notably better.

While I do not see the difference between Luongo and Price relatively high. I do say Luongo is better now.

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11-05-2012, 03:17 PM
  #147
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I think he can be one of the guys, not the main guy you build around.

You build a team around leaders, kane is a good player but is he a guy that others will follow? Does he set a good example on and off the ice? I have to admit I dont follow him or the Hawks much but what I do hear I would think the answer to both of those is no.
You're just forcing it. We'd be fortunate to have a Kane on the habs, just not at that 'Price'.

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11-05-2012, 03:19 PM
  #148
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Quality shots is subjective isn't it? Besides, I don't think the argument is wrong. Price had close numbers at a younger age with more GP and a team on the other side of the sectrum.

Doesn't mean I'll debate it though, Luongo is an excellent goalie and I'm more than willing to agree on the premise that he's the better player but I will never agree that he's just as valuable as Price.
Fair enough. That's why I had Price returning Kane and Luongo returning Cole + essentially 2 2nds.

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11-05-2012, 03:19 PM
  #149
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You're just forcing it. We'd be fortunate to have a Kane on the habs, just not at that 'Price'.
I never said i wouldnt want him. I said he isnt worth what it would cost and he isnt a leader type guy.

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11-05-2012, 03:20 PM
  #150
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That is debatable actually. Vancouver's defense on the defensive side is actually overrated. We are essentially Dan Hamhuis and... that's about it. Not to mention our style is nearly the complete opposite of Montreal's. Vancouver has a tendency to leave their goalies out to dry, whereas Montreal borders on "the trap."

Luongo also played less games, but the misconception has it he lost his job rather than Schneider simply played that good. A good comparison was when Price "stole" Huet's job despite the latter playing notably better.

While I do not see the difference between Luongo and Price relatively high. I do say Luongo is better now.
I agree with everything but this. Huet didn't play better than Price. Price was already on his level and had potential to spare.

If we're going statistically to why Luongo is better than Price than in same games for the same team Price had better stats than Huet in same year. Price also played more games towards the end which are more battle for the playoffs oriented.

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