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Old
11-05-2012, 04:23 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Fair enough. That's why I had Price returning Kane and Luongo returning Cole + essentially 2 2nds.
But you know that doesn't work. You're creating a hole then offering to fill it as long as we pay the premium. It's loaded towards vancouver's favour because they actually fill a need. Montreal just swaps around pieces and ruins their balance. Does it mean the player we acquire are bad? Of course not, I've never said that. Just it's not the right fit. I don't think habs and vancouver are good trading partners anyway.

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Originally Posted by HabsRock View Post
I never said i wouldnt want him. I said he isnt worth what it would cost and he isnt a leader type guy.
He scored the cup winning goal! I mean, lets give him the benefit of the doubt. Despite his minor off ice issues, he seems to be doing just fine on the ice. I think he's a good supporting leader. I'd never see him as a C, but I can see him as an A.

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11-05-2012, 04:26 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
But you know that doesn't work. You're creating a hole then offering to fill it as long as we pay the premium. It's loaded towards vancouver's favour because they actually fill a need. Montreal just swaps around pieces and ruins their balance. Does it mean the player we acquire are bad? Of course not, I've never said that. Just it's not the right fit. I don't think habs and vancouver are good trading partners anyway.



He scored the cup winning goal! I mean, lets give him the benefit of the doubt. Despite his minor off ice issues, he seems to be doing just fine on the ice. I think he's a good supporting leader. I'd never see him as a C, but I can see him as an A.
Yea I see him as an A too but I doubt we are talking about the same kind of A

You would really be willing to pay whatever it would cost to get him? Gally + or maybe Subban? I mean really??

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11-05-2012, 04:29 PM
  #153
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Yea I see him as an A too but I doubt we are talking about the same kind of A

You would really be willing to pay whatever it would cost to get him? Gally + or maybe Subban? I mean really??
I never said that, I just said I feel comfortable with him as an A on the habs because I know he delivers on the ice. I never said I'd acquire him at all costs.

I think we're speaking the same language. Kane isn't THE leader but he can still be a good teammate and is a great player just we have our own needs and core that we need to work on.

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11-05-2012, 04:31 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I never said that, I just said I feel comfortable with him as an A on the habs because I know he delivers on the ice. I never said I'd acquire him at all costs.

I think we're speaking the same language. Kane isn't THE leader but he can still be a good teammate and is a great player just we have our own needs and core that we need to work on.
exactly right. If he came up as a UFA then sure sign me up but I dont think he is the kind of player that I would split up our current core for.

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11-05-2012, 04:33 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Based on what would you say was Price better than Luongo? Luongo was constantly keeping us in games we had no business being in, and this was one of his best years so far. I believe the Canucks allowed the third most quality shots in the league, yet Luongo's numbers still remain more than respectable.

EDIT: Vancouver allowed 241 shots on net, Montreal allowed 207.
Didn't realize that there was a "quality of shots" stat. The mere fact is that the Nucks had better defense and this is not even debatable. Price, despite playing for the 3rd worst team in the league, was an all-star goaltender. He was consistent all season and when he went down due to injury the Habs packed it in.

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11-05-2012, 04:35 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Based on what would you say was Price better than Luongo?

Umm Reality??

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11-05-2012, 04:36 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That is debatable actually. Vancouver's defense on the defensive side is actually overrated. We are essentially Dan Hamhuis and... that's about it. Not to mention our style is nearly the complete opposite of Montreal's. Vancouver has a tendency to leave their goalies out to dry, whereas Montreal borders on "the trap."

Luongo also played less games, but the misconception has it he lost his job rather than Schneider simply played that good. A good comparison was when Price "stole" Huet's job despite the latter playing notably better.

While I do not see the difference between Luongo and Price relatively high. I do say Luongo is better now.
Its debatable but i don't think the Luongo's .003 percentage points advantage in Save Percentage given the team he played behind suggests that he was better than Price last season. Its funny to see Nucks fans now state that their defense was god awful in order to support an argument that Luongo > Price. lol

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11-05-2012, 04:38 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Didn't realize that there was a "quality of shots" stat. The mere fact is that the Nucks had better defense and this is not even debatable. Price, despite playing for the 3rd worst team in the league, was an all-star goaltender. He was consistent all season and when he went down due to injury the Habs packed it in.
Luongo was also consistent all season. I don't see how Price is automatically better because of the team he plays on.

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11-05-2012, 04:43 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Luongo was also consistent all season. I don't see how Price is automatically better because of the team he plays on.
I don't see how Luongo is automatically better last season period. I'm hypothetically considering that Luongo would have had worse numbers had he played behind the horrow show that the Habs were last season.

What's your reason for Luongo being the better goaltender last season?

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11-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
I don't see how Luongo is automatically better last season period. I'm hypothetically considering that Luongo would have had worse numbers had he played behind the horrow show that the Habs were last season.

What's your reason for Luongo being the better goaltender last season?
I'm saying the Canucks let up far more shots and play a more offensive system(which is why we score more goals) than the Habs do. Luongo is relied upon at least as much as Price is to bail us out. While one could argue either way, they are still very close in my mind, both rounding out numbers 4 and 5 in the top 5 goaltenders in the league.

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11-05-2012, 04:47 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by thadd View Post
This thread needs more of this logic.

OK, maybe this doesn't sound like the best thing that could possibly happen to Montreal, but they're giving up a forward who's contract nobody was in love with when he signed it who's year to year consistency isn't anything to write home about and they're getting an ESTABLISHED first line forward in return.

When was the last time Montreal had a first line forward? It's been way too long.
You want logic.

Lack. 24, 25 in January, 0 games in NHL, 14 in SEL. If he doesn't play soon in the NHL, he'll be a career AHLer. At this point, he isn't worth a 2nd, not close. A 5th-7th. We have Desjardins who just turned 27 and can do the same job wich is bus to Montreal and warm up the bench in case of injury.

Luongo. Nobody wants to replace Price with Luongo. Simple enough. We saw the lack of high end talent that Rick Nash brought in for Columbus. Vancouver fans are going to be equally disappointed when they see the return they get when Luongo finally gets traded. People still see upside to Price. He should still get better. Luongo, not so much. What you see is what you get. In a few short years, he will be an expensive back up.


Kane. Very good upgrade over Cole. But does he fit in Montreal. Montreal is also adding a 2nd, Thrower, Collberg. Does it make it worthwhile. It would if Kane was the type of player that Montreal needed, but they don't. Also would be worthwhile if Montreal had a stacked farm system, but it is just now being refilled. Montreal certainly doesn't need to get softer. And frankly, Kane's issues would just get magnified in Montreal. This is the last place he should want to be if he is serious about his career.

As far as the last time Montreal had a first liner. Well let's see. Pacioretty/Desharnais/Cole. Not the best first line in the league, but still a very effective one. Should we break this up just to try someone else who may or may not work out. Cole has always succeeded in Montreal. He used to kill us everytime when he played for Carolina. This guy belongs in Montreal. Prefably with the CH on his jersey. The consitency issue with Cole isn't his play, it's his injuries.
59, 61, 51, 42, 16, 52, 61. He looks pretty consistent to me. 50-60 points. The 42 points was the partial season in Edmonton. The 16 was an injury plagued season. The guy is always playing hurt. He goes to the net at high speed, crashes into the net or endboard, and he stands in front of the net. Montreal can use another 2 like him. Then they can use a Patrick Kane type to carry the puck and make the plays.

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Old
11-05-2012, 04:54 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'm saying the Canucks let up far more shots and play a more offensive system(which is why we score more goals) than the Habs do. Luongo is relied upon at least as much as Price is to bail us out. While one could argue either way, they are still very close in my mind, both rounding out numbers 4 and 5 in the top 5 goaltenders in the league.
The Nucks were a far superior team to the Habs in all facets. The number of shots is irrelevant. In fact a high shot total could easily lend itself to a higher save percentage. Quality of shots is what matters. My argument is that the Habs were the 3rd worst team in the league. The quality of shots that Price faced last year was abysmal. How did they compare to what Luongo face? Can't answer that. But Price was hung out to dry last year as the team was decimated, out of sync, distracted and downright putrid.

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11-05-2012, 04:56 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
The Nucks were a far superior team to the Habs in all facets. The number of shots is irrelevant. In fact a high shot total could easily lend itself to a higher save percentage. Quality of shots is what matters. My argument is that the Habs were the 3rd worst team in the league. The quality of shots that Price faced last year was abysmal. How did they compare to what Luongo face? Can't answer that. But Price was hung out to dry last year as the team was decimated, out of sync, distracted and downright putrid.
You clearly didn't watch a Canucks game from January onward because the quality of shots & chances our goaltenders were facing were downright abysmal for a team so high in the standings as Vancouver was.

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Old
11-05-2012, 05:00 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Yes, Luongo is better but price's seasons he was starting at a young age. Even then though, I will concede that Luongo is a better player and leader.

Still, knowing you're a fan of multiple teams, including the nucks, why trade Luongo in the first place? If a cup contender can't use an elite goalie and are willing to side on potential, why is it unreasonable the habs do the same? I agree Price is worth more than Schneider as well, but that only reinforces the situation. If Schneider is deemed valuable enough to trade Luongo, why is Price not deemed valuable enough to keep instead of Luongo?

I know you never said otherwise but just reinforcing my opinion here.
Aye, this is essentially why I would not do the trade as a Hab fan. Price has the potential to surpass Luongo and acquiring Eddie Lack is taking on a risk for the sake of it. Personally, I would prefer to keep Luongo myself, if only out of a sense of loyalty. For many Nuck fans those, Schneider is merely younger and already putting up stellar numbers. While undoubtedly a risk, he provides the team a longer term.

I'm among the lot who simply wants the best deal.

Quote:
I think it is that bad. The reality is the OP filled no needs for montreal. All he did was remove price and then CREATE a need that wasn't previously there and filled in luongo.

Habs aren't a contender and as you say, they should stay the course and build around their young assets. Getting Luongo and having a hole when he declines is pretty pointless.

Habs have a balanced core(Pacioretty, Subban, Price as the fixtures, 1 in each position) with reasonable blue chippers in Tinordi, Beaulieu, Leblanc, Galchenyuk to have most bases covered. Why disrupt that? Habs will stay the course and build for the future and address their needs with their new and improved development staff and managerial team. When the habs are 1 away from being a contender, we'll evaluate what that 1 piece would cost, until then, habs will continue under this course and reasonably so.

Also, this does not mean Luongo is garbage or he isn't worth anything or yada yada as some would claim. Just we have no use for him right now and we'll decline the offer and good luck with it. I think Vancouver should keep him but whatever.
I mostlyagree with you, although Kane does somewhat help the value. Why I see the trade as being "meh" rather than simply bad, is Eddie Lack. He has a relatively high ceiling and would outset Luongo's inevitable decline. The problem is, as stated earlier, there isn't a reason Montreal should take a risk Lack mirrors Price and Schneider, nor is Kane the difference maker between Montreal being a cup contender or a bubble team.

Oh, I know Montreal's depth; being my B team, and that is essentially it. They have no reason not to stay the course. If Galchenyuk was already putting up 80-100 points, then a trade like this may be worth slightly more consideration. For now, better to see how the prospects develop and possibly move Plekanec (who I still think should go but that is another topic.)

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11-05-2012, 05:07 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I agree with everything but this. Huet didn't play better than Price. Price was already on his level and had potential to spare.

If we're going statistically to why Luongo is better than Price than in same games for the same team Price had better stats than Huet in same year. Price also played more games towards the end which are more battle for the playoffs oriented.
Huet was an oddity. His confidence seemed to utterly shatter whenever someone challenged him for the job. That said, I should clarify. Huet was better under pressure at the time, this is evident with how he played in Washington. Meanwhile, Price struggled a lot after Huet's departure, especially in the playoffs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
Its debatable but i don't think the Luongo's .003 percentage points advantage in Save Percentage given the team he played behind suggests that he was better than Price last season. Its funny to see Nucks fans now state that their defense was god awful in order to support an argument that Luongo > Price. lol
I know, it seems ridiculous but our defense is not awful, just very offensively oriented. There is a reason Nuck fans want sniper rifles every time Edler tries that god-forsaken drop pass.

I watch both the Nucks and Habs, so the differences are quite apparent. Montreal plays a much tighter defensive game all-around; even their forwards, whereas Vancouver likes to throw caution to the wind and just attack.


Last edited by Bourne Endeavor: 11-05-2012 at 05:16 PM.
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Old
11-05-2012, 05:17 PM
  #166
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Don't want Roberto Luongo.
Eddie Lack is a goalie prospect we could use, or we could just draft one.

If I'm giving up Price, Collberg (solid prospect), Thrower (solid prospect) 2nd (meh) and Erik Cole (33, but just got a 30 goal season and has value to the habs that other teams wouldn't take into account. He helps mentor patches, he's great for the young guys and he was part of our best and most consistent line.) I'd want something other than Patrick Kane. Great player, tremendously skilled and would be our best forward since Lafleur, but when there's just him and a bunch of other midgets being pushed around it's not going to look so good.

OP is correct. After Price (and I guess Budaj/any other NHL backup) there's jack **** in terms of depth. Though, Desjardins is alright, but he's hurt. Delmas and Mayer don't seem to have NHL material.

In short, Price is our most valuable player by a long shot (imo) and he's the most untouchable. Even more so than Galchenyuk.

Even with Luongo coming back, I'd rather keep Price. Rather have him grow with the current young players and prospects coming in. He's also proved that he can handle the pressure in Montreal. A lot of players can't and it's extremely hard for goalies.

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11-05-2012, 05:19 PM
  #167
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How about:

Eric Cole + Collberg + Desharnais + 2nd= P. Kane

Leave Price out of it. Leave the Nucks out of it.

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11-05-2012, 05:57 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
How about:

Eric Cole + Collberg + Desharnais + 2nd= P. Kane

Leave Price out of it. Leave the Nucks out of it.
Chicago would then opt to leave Montreal out of it.

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11-05-2012, 06:26 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
How about:

Eric Cole + Collberg + Desharnais + 2nd= P. Kane

Leave Price out of it. Leave the Nucks out of it.
Lol, no thanks from Chicago.

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11-05-2012, 11:20 PM
  #170
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This is such a pile of BS.

Luongo has been better than Price every year that they have been starters.
Price's value is greater than any player in this proposal. Yes even Kane.

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11-05-2012, 11:27 PM
  #171
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Price's value is greater than any player in this proposal. Yes even Kane.
Queue Leafs, Panthers and Oilers fans with "Goalies don't have value".

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11-05-2012, 11:40 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Mad Habber View Post
You want logic.

Lack. 24, 25 in January, 0 games in NHL, 14 in SEL. If he doesn't play soon in the NHL, he'll be a career AHLer. At this point, he isn't worth a 2nd, not close. A 5th-7th. We have Desjardins who just turned 27 and can do the same job wich is bus to Montreal and warm up the bench in case of injury.
you have to realize how the Canucks develop goaltenders, it is expected that Lack isn't in the NHL now (especially behind Luongo and Schneider). Many people are very high on Lack and believe that he will be a starter in this league

FYI- I think the trade is unfair to Mtl, but this is uninformed thinking

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11-06-2012, 12:16 AM
  #173
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...and Vancouver wins this trade prop again! Welcome to fantasy world. When will the fans understand that they are setting themselves up for a huge disappointment in regards to Luongo's value? When will they understand that although he is still a top 10-15 REGULAR season goalie, his albatross contract combined with his poor playoff play limit the number of teams ready to take a chance on him for such a long period?

Unless the new CBA allows for teams to partially pay salaries of traded contracts, you simply cannot expect such high payouts for Luongo.

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11-06-2012, 12:37 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Habsrback View Post
...and Vancouver wins this trade prop again! Welcome to fantasy world. When will the fans understand that they are setting themselves up for a huge disappointment in regards to Luongo's value? When will they understand that although he is still a top 10-15 REGULAR season goalie, his albatross contract combined with his poor playoff play limit the number of teams ready to take a chance on him for such a long period?

Unless the new CBA allows for teams to partially pay salaries of traded contracts, you simply cannot expect such high payouts for Luongo.


We get that you don't want him, but at least do a tiny bit of research first, instead of focusing on two highly publicized rounds against a superior Blackhawks team.

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11-06-2012, 01:04 AM
  #175
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You kind of also forgot a Stanley Cup final against the Bruins where he was terrible, and I am being polite as he is a fellow Montrealer. I like Luongo and hope that we will end up in a market where the media will not be omnipresent. What I am saying is that the two FACTS combined (length of contract plus poor playoff play) significantly bring down his value, even though he would be an upgrade for more than 50% of the teams.

No disrespect to him. I just find that Canuck's fans are setting themselves up for a big disappointment...we are also pretty good at that in MTL too.

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