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Quebec City Part VII: Si J'avais les ailes d'un ange

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Old
11-05-2012, 12:11 AM
  #101
No Fun Shogun
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The only way Cleveland will get an NHL team in the foreseeable future is if Columbus relocates, and that's not happening any time soon.

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Buffalo is basically Canada. Same goes for Minnesota.
And Alberta's basically the U.S. Whoop-de-doo, doesn't change the fact that it's probably not going to happen.

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11-05-2012, 12:19 AM
  #102
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The only way Cleveland will get an NHL team in the foreseeable future is if Columbus relocates, and that's not happening any time soon.
The cities are two hours apart, its not like the Blue Jackets will lose fans if Cleveland got a team. Sure there are Clevelanders who drive to C-bus but a large portion of them (anecdotal evidence only) aren't Blue Jackets fans its just cheaper to go there than Detroit.

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11-05-2012, 08:32 AM
  #103
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The cities are two hours apart, its not like the Blue Jackets will lose fans if Cleveland got a team.
And you know this how?

Two hours isn't that long compared to some of the drives I've seen fans make to get to a game. and in terms of media markets, 2 hours is practically on your doorstep.

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11-05-2012, 09:25 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
The only way Cleveland will get an NHL team in the foreseeable future is if Columbus relocates, and that's not happening any time soon.



And Alberta's basically the U.S. Whoop-de-doo, doesn't change the fact that it's probably not going to happen.
No it's not. That's like saying Texas is basically Canada.

Why would the NHL be adverse to putting a team like Buffalo in an otherwise all Canadian division?

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11-05-2012, 09:44 AM
  #105
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Interesting discussion there. But hey, how about we do a very tight turn around (here they say : Se virer sur un 10 cenne) and NHL resumes play January 1st-2nd-3rd and Coyotes need to be moved by that date...why not simply switch Jets and Qc ?

Wait, I know, someone gets screwed big time on travel. Who the F cares, we want a team first, we will work other things after.

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11-05-2012, 10:46 AM
  #106
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Nah they'll play in Phoenix this year even though along the way it is likely to turn into this sad to see scene for the Phoenix fans (All 30 of them) as it becomes clear the team is moving...sort of like the last year of the Expos. That wasn't fun.

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11-05-2012, 01:12 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
The cities are two hours apart, its not like the Blue Jackets will lose fans if Cleveland got a team. Sure there are Clevelanders who drive to C-bus but a large portion of them (anecdotal evidence only) aren't Blue Jackets fans its just cheaper to go there than Detroit.
The point is that adding a second NHL team to Ohio when, let's face it, Columbus still has a lot to prove for their franchise stability, would very likely run the risk of vastly over-saturating the market, especially as Cleveland's been declining population- and wealth-wise in huge ways.

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No it's not. That's like saying Texas is basically Canada.

Why would the NHL be adverse to putting a team like Buffalo in an otherwise all Canadian division?
Because no American NHL team wants to be in a division with only other Canadian teams. That simple, really. They've already been some pretty widespread discussions that neither Colorado or Minnesota were very keen on the idea of being in a reformed division with the four western Candadian teams, too.

Dollars to donuts the NHL will be much more likely to create odd divisions like the Quebec & Dixie one I made over a geographically logical division that only has a single American team.

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11-05-2012, 01:33 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Because no American NHL team wants to be in a division with only other Canadian teams. That simple, really. They've already been some pretty widespread discussions that neither Colorado or Minnesota were very keen on the idea of being in a reformed division with the four western Canadian teams, too.

Dollars to donuts the NHL will be much more likely to create odd divisions like the Quebec & Dixie one I made over a geographically logical division that only has a single American team.
Why not ?

Honestly, I am very curious to know why being in a division with 4 Canadian teams is bad ?

Going too often by the border ? I don't think so. All teams are already and must remain pre-approved with US and Canadian Customs offices.

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11-05-2012, 02:30 PM
  #109
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Why not ?

Honestly, I am very curious to know why being in a division with 4 Canadian teams is bad ?

Going too often by the border ? I don't think so. All teams are already and must remain pre-approved with US and Canadian Customs offices.
Got me, to be honest. Maybe the owners think they need a couple American teams to help cement rivalries or maybe they just don't want two anthems before the lion's share of their games. Regardless, not wanting to be with four Canadian teams seems to have been the general impression that came out of the league when they proposed that obviously pro-expansion realignment earlier in the year (that included lumping Florida in with Canada).

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11-05-2012, 02:33 PM
  #110
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The point is that adding a second NHL team to Ohio when, let's face it, Columbus still has a lot to prove for their franchise stability, would very likely run the risk of vastly over-saturating the market, especially as Cleveland's been declining population- and wealth-wise in huge ways.

Because no American NHL team wants to be in a division with only other Canadian teams. That simple, really. They've already been some pretty widespread discussions that neither Colorado or Minnesota were very keen on the idea of being in a reformed division with the four western Canadian teams, too.

Dollars to donuts the NHL will be much more likely to create odd divisions like the Quebec & Dixie one I made over a geographically logical division that only has a single American team.
I agree on Cleveland.

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Why not ?

Honestly, I am very curious to know why being in a division with 4 Canadian teams is bad ?

Going too often by the border ? I don't think so. All teams are already and must remain pre-approved with US and Canadian Customs offices.
As for a 4-1 country split, it really doesn't make sound business sense for a number of reasons. It has nothing to do with any kind of nationalist issues (so let's put that bed right now). I think the players would enjoy playing road games in front of packed houses with great atmospheres.

But it's a TV thing. Pure and simple. You're not getting many (if any) national TV games in the United States if you're the only US team in your division. The geographic alignment makes "rivalry games" and "division games" as the same thing. So you'll always be passed over by NBC.

Personally, I think the smartest thing the NHL could do would be to scrap pure geography and create hybrid divisions, force "division rivals" to create more marquee games. Go East-Central-West in each conference, and use "interleague play" to maintain the same 6-game schedule against a corresponding division. So, Wales East plays the Wales Conference, and Campbell East.

That's what makes the four-conference alignment so intriguing: FLA and TB with MON-TOR-OTT-BOS. You're assimilating the Southeast rather than segregating them.

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11-05-2012, 02:59 PM
  #111
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That's what makes the four-conference alignment so intriguing: FLA and TB with MON-TOR-OTT-BOS. You're assimilating the Southeast rather than segregating them.
... I think youd get some serious Blowback on that one Kev. Those three 06'rs' in addition to Ottawa want more games against their traditional rivals from the Great Lakes, Central & North Eastern Seaboards. Detroit, Chicago, Philly etc, along with more frequent jousts with the Jets, Oilers, Flames & Canucks. Its' just a shame ASG went n' done what they did, as a Southeastern Division including the Caps, Canes, Preds, Florida X's 2 & Georgia did/does hold much in way of potential rivalries.

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11-05-2012, 03:07 PM
  #112
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Buffalo is basically Canada. Same goes for Minnesota.
That's probably why Buffalo always plays Both anthems even if it's a game Buffalo vs any American team.

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11-05-2012, 05:28 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Interesting discussion there. But hey, how about we do a very tight turn around (here they say : Se virer sur un 10 cenne) and NHL resumes play January 1st-2nd-3rd and Coyotes need to be moved by that date...why not simply switch Jets and Qc ?
We've got the same expression in English - "turn on a dime".

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11-05-2012, 06:49 PM
  #114
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... I think youd get some serious Blowback on that one Kev. Those three 06'rs' in addition to Ottawa want more games against their traditional rivals from the Great Lakes, Central & North Eastern Seaboards. Detroit, Chicago, Philly etc, along with more frequent jousts with the Jets, Oilers, Flames & Canucks. Its' just a shame ASG went n' done what they did, as a Southeastern Division including the Caps, Canes, Preds, Florida X's 2 & Georgia did/does hold much in way of potential rivalries.
No doubt. The NHL wanted new, big markets for TV purposes… and no one wants to play them.

I've said it before, but when you add 1-2 people to a group, the join the group. When you add 8-12 people to a group, they CHANGE the group.

The new markets who've been the most successful spent the most time being "the new guy" among a group of established teams. (OTT, COL, SJ, DAL, TB). The new markets who've struggled the most spent the most time in a division full of fellow noobs.(ATL, PHX, NASH, CBJ, CAR). With the exception of CAR and FLA, making a list of "number of seasons spent in a division with each established team" pretty much shows the order of success for each of the new markets.


The Southeast may have had the appearance of "rivals" because of geographic (relative) proximity. But looking at fan attendance by opponent shows that their fans didn't feel that at all. Fans came to see WASH once Ovechkin showed up, but no one felt a rivalry with them before that. nor did they feel a rivalry with ATL ever. When CAR and TB were both good, those games were well attended. The concept of geographic rivalries only worked in pairs: FLA-TB and CAR-ATL tandems, in different divisions with northeast teams? That would have worked.

In MLB, you have division rivals that don't fit geography. Over the years...
NY Mets: St. Louis, Chicago, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Florida, and Philly and the NY Yankees.
Atlanta: Cincinnati, San Francisco, Houston, New York, Philadelphia.

They do is split up regional rivals (like Cubs-White Sox; Mets-Yankees, Baltimore-Philly, Tampa-Miami) into different leagues; but still play those games. Something similar in the NHL would work great.

Instead of TOR playing 6 vs OTT, BUF, BOS, MON, 4 vs East, 1 vs West. Play 6 vs OTT, BUF, BOS, MON, TB, FLA, 4 vs rest of East, 1 vs HALF the West, 0 vs half the West.

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11-05-2012, 07:06 PM
  #115
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I think Texas can support two NHL teams better than it can support one. When it comes to sports, Dallas and Houston tend to be a package deal. The rivalry between the two towns makes any league that has both teams more interesting to Texans and the amount of oil money that state can sling around is absurd.

Personally I think a team in Houston would act as a catalyst to the stars in the same way each of Boston, Toronto and Montreal are stronger markets for the rivalry with each other.
But I don't think this can ever be contemplated, at least until the NHL is more healthy than it is now. Going to another southern market would be a huge, mega risk. Saying "oh Houston would help Dallas" is such irresponsible management, almost going into science-fiction. Anyway even Bettman would not do this.

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11-05-2012, 09:40 PM
  #116
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Moving into Houston MAKES the league more healthy than it is now, especially if it's a struggling team moving. And if a Houston rival increases fan interest in Dallas as I think it might it improves it even more.

You seem to have this prejudice that a team in Houston would be some kind of charity case. Not unless it's HORRIBLY mismanaged. That is a major league market, and I have no doubt at all it could pull its weight in a bad year.

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11-06-2012, 06:07 AM
  #117
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But I don't think this can ever be contemplated, at least until the NHL is more healthy than it is now. Going to another southern market would be a huge, mega risk. Saying "oh Houston would help Dallas" is such irresponsible management, almost going into science-fiction. Anyway even Bettman would not do this.
...but determining the shortlist of relocation candidates based solely on latitude is smart?

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11-06-2012, 07:46 AM
  #118
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Any nuanced discussion about relocation to new or potentially risky US markets (which is to say, all of them) isn't going to happen until Quebec gets a team.

It's like LA in football, or DC in baseball before they swiped the Expos. It's this giant elephant in the room.

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11-06-2012, 07:53 AM
  #119
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Thanks to y'all for those comments. While I understand better, I still cannot fully agree with it.

While we all in Canada like a good old Saturday night double header on CBC, I do watch more games on NBC than on RDS (French TSN).

Rivalries and TV deals ? I honestly thing BOS vs MTL is a bigger rivalry than TOR vs MTL. Maybe back in time it was something, but lately, both Leafs and Habs have been tanking that the rivalry got boring (Props to Leafs fans who find a way to overpopulate enemy arenas - Even the hard to find tickets to place called Centre Bell).

I think VAN - LAK are onto a new rivalry. It's known that Winnipeggers traveled down to Minnesota for hockey, now that they got their team back, I think there will be a stronger rivalry between MIN - WIN than WIN vs any of the 3 other West Canadian teams.

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We've got the same expression in English - "turn on a dime".
Thanks for this, will keep it noted.

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11-06-2012, 11:37 AM
  #120
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Rivalries and TV deals ? I honestly thing BOS vs MTL is a bigger rivalry than TOR vs MTL. Maybe back in time it was something, but lately, both Leafs and Habs have been tanking that the rivalry got boring (Props to Leafs fans who find a way to overpopulate enemy arenas - Even the hard to find tickets to place called Centre Bell).
The main reason is probably that the Leafs and Habs weren't in the same division from 1974-75 to 1997-98 while the Bruins and Habs have been consistently together since 1981-82. The 80s were big for divisional rivalries because almost everybody made the playoffs and there were 2 full rounds of intra-division series.

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11-06-2012, 12:04 PM
  #121
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Rivalries and TV deals ? I honestly thing BOS vs MTL is a bigger rivalry than TOR vs MTL. Maybe back in time it was something, but lately, both Leafs and Habs have been tanking that the rivalry got boring (Props to Leafs fans who find a way to overpopulate enemy arenas - Even the hard to find tickets to place called Centre Bell).
This might be one of those 'language barrier' moments - in English, to "tank" means to intentionally lose (generally for a better draft position, sometimes to avoid a tough playoff opponent). Neither the Leafs nor the Habs have been intentionally losing games.

I presume you meant to say that the rivalry has grown stale because neither team has had much success recently (and having not played a playoff series against one another in 34 years doesn't help), then I'd half-agree with you. The rivalry is somewhat dormant, however players and fans on both teams know just how special it is to play in a Leafs/Habs game on a Saturday night, even if the two teams are 14th/15th in the conference. But I guarantee you that the second these two teams are 1-2 in the Northeast again, and if we're ever blessed with a playoff series with these two teams again, this rivalry is going to absolutely explode

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11-06-2012, 12:22 PM
  #122
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Moving into Houston MAKES the league more healthy than it is now, especially if it's a struggling team moving. And if a Houston rival increases fan interest in Dallas as I think it might it improves it even more.

You seem to have this prejudice that a team in Houston would be some kind of charity case. Not unless it's HORRIBLY mismanaged. That is a major league market, and I have no doubt at all it could pull its weight in a bad year.
I agree that a team in Houston would be great. It's a good sports market.

BUT, there is no interrested owner! That's the problem!

What the NHL team needs is:

-A good enough market

-A good arena

-A GREAT owner the other owners want to do business with and play golf with and etc....

That's why Balsilie failed.

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11-06-2012, 01:08 PM
  #123
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I agree that a team in Houston would be great. It's a good sports market.

BUT, there is no interrested owner! That's the problem!

What the NHL team needs is:

-A good enough market

-A good arena

-A GREAT owner the other owners want to do business with and play golf with and etc....

That's why Balsilie failed.
Yeah, he had none of the above.

I kid, I kid.... Hamilton's good, so 1/3.

That being said, if the NHL does really announce a two-team expansion plan like many of us are expecting, especially if it is a multiyear process, I would still have to guess that Houston has a legitimate shot at landing a team. Not with Les Alexander, but if the process takes several years, it might very well give Houston enough time to cobble together a decent ownership group.

If we were just talking about relocation though, be it for this year or next, then Houston would have zero shot.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Quebec will get a certain, not-to-be-named desert-area relocation team while Seattle and Houston get expansion teams, unless Portland pulls a shocker and Paul Allen decides he wants a team, in which case it'll be Seattle and Portland.

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11-06-2012, 02:14 PM
  #124
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This might be one of those 'language barrier' moments - in English, to "tank" means to intentionally lose (generally for a better draft position, sometimes to avoid a tough playoff opponent). Neither the Leafs nor the Habs have been intentionally losing games.

I presume you meant to say that the rivalry has grown stale because neither team has had much success recently (and having not played a playoff series against one another in 34 years doesn't help), then I'd half-agree with you. The rivalry is somewhat dormant, however players and fans on both teams know just how special it is to play in a Leafs/Habs game on a Saturday night, even if the two teams are 14th/15th in the conference. But I guarantee you that the second these two teams are 1-2 in the Northeast again, and if we're ever blessed with a playoff series with these two teams again, this rivalry is going to absolutely explode
Yeah, you got me right. But then...Habs going with Gomez...can't say they aren't intentionally tanking. As for Leafs, they had many many successes with goalkeeping.

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11-06-2012, 02:16 PM
  #125
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Move Phoenix to Seattle

Expand to QBC and Houston. Donezo

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