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Vancouver-Toronto-San Jose

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:47 PM
  #1
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Vancouver-Toronto-San Jose

To Vancouver:Ryan Clowe,Tyler Bozak, San Jose 1st 2013

To Toronto:Roberto Luongo, Mason Raymond, Patrick Marleau

To San Jose: David Booth, Vancouver 1st 2013, Toronto 2nd 2013, Nik Kulimen, Nazam Kadri, Clarke Mcarthur,Joffery Lupul


It's not gonna happen but I think it has good value.

Thoughts?


Edit:I added in Lupul does it make a bigger difference?


Last edited by CanucksCupHopes*: 11-06-2012 at 01:02 AM.
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Old
11-05-2012, 11:51 PM
  #2
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Originally Posted by CanucksCupHopes View Post
To Vancouver:Ryan Clowe,Tyler Bozak, San Jose 1st 2013

To Toronto:Roberto Luongo, Mason Raymond, Patrick Marleau

To San Jose: David Booth, Vancouver 1st 2013, Toronto 2nd 2013, Nik Kulimen, Nazam Kadri, Clarke Mcarthur


It's not gonna happen but I think it has good value.

Thoughts?
From Vancouver: Luongo, Raymond, Booth, 1st.
From Toronto: Bozak, Kulemin, Kadri, MacArthur.
From SJ: Marleau, Clowe, 1st.

Hmm.. thanks for letting us get a top center and goalie.

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:53 PM
  #3
Vankiller Whale
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Sharks get hosed. Toronto gets Luongo, Raymond and Marleau for Bozak, Kadri, Kulemin, Macarthur, and a 2nd. They make out like bandits.

Vancouver also gets bad value. Upgrade slightly from Booth to Clowe(upcoming UFA as well) and Bozak(upcoming UFA) as well as a rather pointless swap of 1sts. Luongo is worth more.

I don't see the Sharks trading Marleau anytime soon.

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:54 PM
  #4
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Wow this is really fair. Like pinpoint fair. I don't think you can get fairer than this. If I you asked a mirror "who was the fairest of them all", it would say "CanuckCupHopes thread my dear Gentile". I honestly can't fathom how fair this proposal is. It's like the stars aligned, the moon shone, and the Germans invaded Puerto Rico. That's how fair this trade is.

People of HF, I have to make an announcement, no proposal shall be as fair as the one presented to you in this thread. Let us rejoice in all that is fair!

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:55 PM
  #5
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Sharks are giving up the two most valuable pieces and getting a bunch of ok pieces.

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11-05-2012, 11:57 PM
  #6
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Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Sharks are giving up the two most valuable pieces and getting a bunch of ok pieces.
Please don't tell me you think Clowe is more valuable than Lu. Toronto easily wins this deal.

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11-05-2012, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bacheesh View Post
Wow this is really fair. Like pinpoint fair. I don't think you can get fairer than this. If I you asked a mirror "who was the fairest of them all", it would say "CanuckCupHopes thread my dear Gentile". I honestly can't fathom how fair this proposal is. It's like the stars aligned, the moon shone, and the Germans invaded Puerto Rico. That's how fair this trade is.

People of HF, I have to make an announcement, no proposal shall be as fair as the one presented to you in this thread. Let us rejoice in all that is fair!


Let us rejoice!

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Old
11-05-2012, 11:57 PM
  #8
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Sorry, but this trade is done and all trades are finalized, no trade backs.


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Old
11-06-2012, 12:05 AM
  #9
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Booth for Clowe. I think Clowe is certainly the more valuable player, this is a win for Vancouver.

Luongo+Raymond for Bozak+San Joses' first. This is the part I feel we lose. Like very, very, very badly.

Allow me to offer a dissenting opinion....

....Also I don't think San Jose should be moving Marleau just yet, and I don't think they'll be crazy about the quantity provided.

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Old
11-06-2012, 12:05 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanucksCupHopes View Post
To Vancouver:Ryan Clowe,Tyler Bozak, San Jose 1st 2013

To Toronto:Roberto Luongo, Mason Raymond, Patrick Marleau

To San Jose: David Booth, Vancouver 1st 2013, Toronto 2nd 2013, Nik Kulimen, Nazam Kadri, Clarke Mcarthur


It's not gonna happen but I think it has good value.

Thoughts?
I'd gladly play a bit more be the team who snags Marleau. Be a perfect fit as a second PP center and be a true goal scorer who can create scoring chances himself.

To SJS Luongo Booth MacArthur Vans 1st and Tors 2nd
To TML Neimi Raymond Vans 2nd
To Van Marleau

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Old
11-06-2012, 12:24 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Sharks get hosed.
So what else is new ...

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Old
11-06-2012, 12:27 AM
  #12
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Sharks get screwed, I think Canucks say no, Toronto thanks you for solving their #1 center and #1 goalie issue as well as Raymond for MacArthur, Kadri, Bozak, Kulemin, and a 2nd, and runs

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11-06-2012, 12:28 AM
  #13
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San Jose is happy to please parts of Canada. Doug Wilson will enjoy his nice retirement house in one of two provinces.

*because he will be run out of town after this

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Old
11-06-2012, 12:55 AM
  #14
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SJ politely declines.

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Old
11-06-2012, 01:19 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying High View Post
Sharks are giving up the two most valuable pieces and getting a bunch of ok pieces.
San Jose does not give up the 2 most valuable pieces, but rather one of them. Luongo is in fact the most valuable piece in this proposal, and yes some people are going to disagree. Marleau is the second most valuable. Luongo and Marleau are both 33, the main difference here is that forwards lose their impact/explosiveness earliest out of all positions, and goalies can play the longest on average. Cap hits are significantly different favouring Luongo. And yes Luongo has a much longer contract, but realistically this hurts the Canucks in the future not the team he is traded, based on recent CBA proposal. Note: HF board logic on this topic is poor. The deal overall is terrible value for Vancouver, and San Jose should not be interested either. Toronto wins this trade hands down, and even with Lupul included.

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11-06-2012, 01:56 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
San Jose does not give up the 2 most valuable pieces, but rather one of them. Luongo is in fact the most valuable piece in this proposal, and yes some people are going to disagree. Marleau is the second most valuable. Luongo and Marleau are both 33, the main difference here is that forwards lose their impact/explosiveness earliest out of all positions, and goalies can play the longest on average. Cap hits are significantly different favouring Luongo. And yes Luongo has a much longer contract, but realistically this hurts the Canucks in the future not the team he is traded, based on recent CBA proposal. Note: HF board logic on this topic is poor. The deal overall is terrible value for Vancouver, and San Jose should not be interested either. Toronto wins this trade hands down, and even with Lupul included.
Marleau is certainly more valuable than Luongo.

I love how you claim that forwards can lose their impact/explosiveness earliest out of all positions when the player you're talking about had his three best goal-scoring seasons at ages 29-31. In fact, it's a generally accepted fact that most goaltenders experience a significant drop in performance level at age 32-33.

Cap hit is favoring Luongo? Come on, you mention that, and don't mention that Marleau's off the books in a year and a half (and will be due for a pay cut), but Luongo is on the books until the end of time? Talk about manipulating the facts.

Anyway, personally I don't at all like Lupul, so his inclusion doesn't do anything for me. But it does wreck the Leafs forwards. Do they even have anyone left but Kessel, Grabovski, JVR, and Marleau? Yuck.

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Old
11-06-2012, 02:08 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Marleau is certainly more valuable than Luongo.

I love how you claim that forwards can lose their impact/explosiveness earliest out of all positions when the player you're talking about had his three best goal-scoring seasons at ages 29-31. In fact, it's a generally accepted fact that most goaltenders experience a significant drop in performance level at age 32-33.

Cap hit is favoring Luongo? Come on, you mention that, and don't mention that Marleau's off the books in a year and a half (and will be due for a pay cut), but Luongo is on the books until the end of time? Talk about manipulating the facts.

Anyway, personally I don't at all like Lupul, so his inclusion doesn't do anything for me. But it does wreck the Leafs forwards. Do they even have anyone left but Kessel, Grabovski, JVR, and Marleau? Yuck.

Anyways... Lets not turn this into a pissing match over who has more value. There'd be a greater market for Marleau, but Luongo would provide more impact. Marleau is signed for a shorter term, but Luongo is cheaper and more likely to last longer(look at the percentage of goalies playing well into their late 30s compared to forwards).

It would ultimately rely on intangible factors as to whom would garner more, but as SJ isn't looking to trade Marleau, it doesn't matter anyways.

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11-06-2012, 02:24 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Anyways... Lets not turn this into a pissing match over who has more value. There'd be a greater market for Marleau, but Luongo would provide more impact. Marleau is signed for a shorter term, but Luongo is cheaper and more likely to last longer(look at the percentage of goalies playing well into their late 30s compared to forwards).
In the top-10 goalies by save percentage, exactly one (Miikka Kiprusoff) out of the ten (Elliott, Schneider, Lundqvist, Smith, Quick, Halak, Rinne, Lehtonen, Kipper, Howard) was 35 or older (Kipper was 35). Of the top-30 forwards by points, 5 of them (Elias, Whitney, St. Louis, Iginla, Selanne) were 35+. Of top-30 forwards by points, 18 of them are 29 or older. Of the top-10 goaltenders by save percentage, 2 were 29 or older.

I think you're confusing the fact that goaltenders peak later than forwards with the idea that goaltenders keep up a high level of play to an older age than forwards do. Plenty of old goaltenders are in the league as average backups. But do you really want 37 year old Luongo as a $5.5M backup?

I don't want to get into a pissing match, you're right, but I also want to clear up that misconception.

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11-06-2012, 02:27 AM
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I have mixed feelings about this, It might be good for the canucks and the leafs but I am not sure if it helps the sharks.

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11-06-2012, 02:32 AM
  #20
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Thomas
Vokoun
Brodeur
Nabokov
Backstrom
Kiprusoff
Theodore
Khabibulin

Were all starters 35+. Almost a third of all the starters in the league. Saying most goalies significantly drop at 32-33 is wrong. Sure there are scorers that continue playing well into their late 30s, but vast majority do not.

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11-06-2012, 02:34 AM
  #21
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
In the top-10 goalies by save percentage, exactly one (Miikka Kiprusoff) out of the ten (Elliott, Schneider, Lundqvist, Smith, Quick, Halak, Rinne, Lehtonen, Kipper, Howard) was 35 or older (Kipper was 35). Of the top-30 forwards by points, 5 of them (Elias, Whitney, St. Louis, Iginla, Selanne) were 35+. Of top-30 forwards by points, 18 of them are 29 or older. Of the top-10 goaltenders by save percentage, 2 were 29 or older.

I think you're confusing the fact that goaltenders peak later than forwards with the idea that goaltenders keep up a high level of play to an older age than forwards do. Plenty of old goaltenders are in the league as average backups. But do you really want 37 year old Luongo as a $5.5M backup?

I don't want to get into a pissing match, you're right, but I also want to clear up that misconception.
2 of your 10 goalies weren't starters, and there are 12 times as many forwards on a team vs. starting goalies, and save percentage has problems if it's the only stat we're looking at. In order to avoid the pissing match, let's just say we both value our guy more, and leave it at that.

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11-06-2012, 02:47 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Thomas
Vokoun
Brodeur
Nabokov
Backstrom
Kiprusoff
Theodore
Khabibulin

Were all starters 35+. Almost a third of all the starters in the league. Saying most goalies significantly drop at 32-33 is wrong. Sure there are scorers that continue playing well into their late 30s, but vast majority do not.
1. Thomas didn't have lots of NHL wear and tear.
2. Vokoun was 35 all of last season, and he was not a quality starter.
3. Brodeur is a legend.
4. Nabokov was barely a starter last season. His last real starting season was his age 34 season in 09-10.
5. Backstrom was 33 most of last season.
6. Kipper is duly noted.
7. Jose Theodore, really? He was 35 all of last season, and he was not a quality starter.
8. Khabibulin, really? He hasn't played more than 50 games since he was 33. Two years ago he put up a .891 sv% over 46 games. Not the best example.

Really, Kipprusoff is the only guy on there who's a point. You can't compare Luongo to Brodeur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cogburn View Post
2 of your 10 goalies weren't starters, and there are 12 times as many forwards on a team vs. starting goalies, and save percentage has problems if it's the only stat we're looking at. In order to avoid the pissing match, let's just say we both value our guy more, and leave it at that.
Isn't that point me? I could take the top-120 forwards and compare the ratios of 35+ players in that group to the ratio in the top-10 goalies if you like, but I think I'll like the results more than you.

It's just a fact. Most goaltenders fall off a cliff around age 33. I'm not saying that Luongo is definitely one of them. I'm just saying that the idea that forwards lose elite play earlier than forwards do is wrong.

EDIT: Anyway, I'm done. I don't mean to pick a fight, I just wanna talk hockey with someone.


Last edited by TheJuxtaposer: 11-06-2012 at 02:53 AM.
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Old
11-06-2012, 03:02 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bacheesh View Post
Wow this is really fair. Like pinpoint fair. I don't think you can get fairer than this. If I you asked a mirror "who was the fairest of them all", it would say "CanuckCupHopes thread my dear Gentile". I honestly can't fathom how fair this proposal is. It's like the stars aligned, the moon shone, and the Germans invaded Puerto Rico. That's how fair this trade is.

People of HF, I have to make an announcement, no proposal shall be as fair as the one presented to you in this thread. Let us rejoice in all that is fair!
I might have missed it but did you find this fair?

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Old
11-06-2012, 03:04 AM
  #24
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
1. Thomas didn't have lots of NHL wear and tear.
2. Vokoun was 35 all of last season, and he was not a quality starter.
3. Brodeur is a legend.
4. Nabokov was barely a starter last season. His last real starting season was his age 34 season in 09-10.
5. Backstrom was 33 most of last season.
6. Kipper is duly noted.
7. Jose Theodore, really? He was 35 all of last season, and he was not a quality starter.
8. Khabibulin, really? He hasn't played more than 50 games since he was 33. Two years ago he put up a .891 sv% over 46 games. Not the best example.

Really, Kipprusoff is the only guy on there who's a point. You can't compare Luongo to Brodeur.
Luongo's a lot closer to Kipprusoff and Thomas and yes, Brodeur, than he is to goalies that aren't.

Nabokov was perfectly fine in net, having never dipped below .910 sv% in the past 5 years.

Vokoun was also fine in net, not sure what you mean by not being a "quality starter". Luongo is better than most of these goalies. When's the last time a goalie of similar calibre to Luongo had his play drop off dramatically before he was 35?

And it's still a far cry from "32-33" when most goalies suffer a significant drop off, according to you.

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Old
11-06-2012, 03:13 AM
  #25
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I'm almost embarrassed to see fellow Canucks fans claiming that Lu is more valuable than Marleau. I would trade Luongo for Marleau in a heartbeat, and happily add to it to boot.

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