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Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

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Old
11-06-2012, 04:02 AM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
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Round 2, Vote 3 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

IMPORTANT NOTE: I will NOT be collecting votes for every vote this time. The second post of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to (it will be either seventieslord or TheDevilMadeMe). If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top 7-10 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
  • Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

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11-06-2012, 04:04 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Vote 3 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Wednesday, November 14th at 11:00 PM EST. You may PM votes to me (TheDevilMadeMe) starting on November 12th.

I will be sending out confirmations when I receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume I never received it and should either resubmit it or contact me to arrange a different method to submit the ballots.

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 10 candidates this time.

Vote 3 will be for places 9 through 12 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Ed Belfour
Clint Benedict
Johnny Bower
Frank Brimsek
Turk Broda
Bill Durnan
Tony Esposito
Charlie Gardiner
Bernie Parent
Georges Vezina

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 11-13-2012 at 01:32 AM.
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11-06-2012, 04:34 AM
  #3
tarheelhockey
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First order of business.

Brimsek vs Durnan II: The Reckoning

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11-06-2012, 07:01 AM
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intylerwetrust
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I would say: Broda, Brimsek, Durnan, Parent/Benedict are the top 4.

Always hard to compare Benedict to the likes of Parent and such.... I also had Thompson and Hainsworth before some in there.

WHats the knock on Durnan exactly? 2 Cups, 6 Vezinas, and 6 1st team all-stars are above and beyond what some of the top 8 have (not that he should be in the top 8).

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11-06-2012, 07:18 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intylerwetrust View Post
WHats the knock on Durnan exactly? 2 Cups, 6 Vezinas, and 6 1st team all-stars are above and beyond what some of the top 8 have (not that he should be in the top 8).
Played his prime against extremely weak WW2 competition on a somehow stacked Canadiens team.

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11-06-2012, 08:55 AM
  #6
Canadiens1958
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Brimsek, Broda, Durnan

Finally have the three dominant goalies from the late 1930s to 1950 together. Broda played a minor back-up role in 1951 and 1952 while Brimsek and Durnan retired after the 1949-50 season.

Turk Broda was the first to enter the NHL - 1936-37, followed by Brimsek - 1938-39, finally Durnan in 1943-44, the season that the Red Line was introduced in the NHL.

Between the 1936-37 and 1951-52 seasons the TG/G in the NHL ranged from 4.93 to 8.17. Effectively if a goalie allowed 5 or more goals per game his team's chances of winning were very slim.

Pre Red Line Turk Broda played seven seasons. Regular season saw him give up 5 or more goals app. 6 times per season. Brimsek played five seasons, giving up 5 goals or more app 5.2 times a season. During the playoffs, Broda allowed 5 goals or more only 2 times in 55 games, while Brimsek, playing on a slightly better teams supported by the great Kraut Line and Dit Clapper allowed 5 goals or more 4 times in 43 games.

On a slightly better team during the regular season, pre Red Line, Frank Brimsek was a slightly better regular season goalie but Broda was the more steady playoff goalie - playoff GAA ranged from 1.73 to 2.73 while Brimsek saw his playoff GAA range from 1.25 to 3.51

Post Red Line era, all three goalies under consideration played but Broda had the longer absence from the NHL and played three partial or insignificant seasons. So the regular season data comparables are focused on complete or near complete seasons. Also the regular seasons were longer going to 50 then 60, finally 70 games

Bill Durnan 1943-44 to 1949-50. During the regular season, Bill Durnan allowed 5 or more goals app. 5.5 times per season. During the playoffs Bill Durnan NEVER allowed more than four goals in a game, yet he played 45 playoff games. His playoff GAA ranged from 1.53 to 3.33.

Turk Broda, During the regular season(excluding partial seasons) allowed 5 or more goals app. 9.8 times a season. During the playoffs Turk Broda allowed 4 or more goal 5 times in 46 games. Playoff GAA ranged from 1.10-2.38(3.50 if a last hurrah two game stint in 1952 is considered)

Frank Brimsek. During the regular season allowed 5 or more goals app 11 times a season. During the playoffs, Brimsek allowed 5 or more goals 5 times in 25 games.GAA ranged from 2.67 - 3.79

Conclusions.

The Kraut Line/Clapper factor used to excuse Brimsek's poor 1942 playoff performance is basically a non-factor. Brimsek was just a prone to weak games, evidenced by two consecutive 5+ goal games in the 1941 playoffs against the Rangers. The difference between Broda and Brimsek during the regular season is marginal. Given that Brimsek enjoyed the benefits of the Kraut Line and Clapper a greater difference was expected. So either Brimsek or the Kraut Line/Clapper were not as good as perceived or we have to pull back a bit on the superlatives tossed at all five.

Post Red Line era. Durnan was clearly the best regular season goalie, evidenced by his honours and awards - ASTs and Vezinas.
Brimsek and Broda are a toss-up given that the Leafs overall were a slightly better team. Yet neither was as steady as Durnan.

Playoffs are interesting. Would love to see another goalie play a string of 45 consecutive playoff games without a weak game where he allowed 5 or more games. Broda on the other hand while having a few weak games 5 in 46 games vs Durnan 0 in 45 games, had more superlative games translating into greater team success. Brimsek in the playoffs from this era is a poor third.

Overall it's a Broda/Durnan or Durnan/Broda discussion with Brimsek demonstratably third by a fair margin.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 11-06-2012 at 08:56 AM. Reason: presentation
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Old
11-06-2012, 10:37 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Don't have much time to post, but first thoughts:

I see this round like this:

1. Frank Brimsek.
2. The rest

I had Georges Vezina my highest ranked after Brimsek on my initial list and I'm starting this round that way. It seems the majority of people who watched him play thought he (not Clint Benedict) was the best of his era. It's possible they were all biased since Benedict played such a "classless, cheating" flopping style that a modern observer would call "innovative," or maybe they underrate him because the last memory of Benedict was leaving Ottawa after being accused of blowing games because he was drunk. But it definitely needs to be noted that both during their careers and afterwards, Vezina was the one talked about by hockey people as the defining goalie of the era. Not to say that Benedict wasn't a superstar himself.

Charlie Gardiner was the defining goalie of the 30s, but I'm not sure his career was long enough to be added quite yet. It would be interesting to compare him to Bill Durnan, as another high-prime, short career goalie.

What makes Johnny Bower's NHL career better than Billy Smiths? How much does his dominance of the O6 AHL add to his legacy?

Ed Belfour has a stronger "on paper" record than Johnny Bower and I don't think his competition was weaker. Should he be ranked higher than Bower? Bower spent most of his career in Toronto in a platoon situation, which really hurt him in All Star voting. Was he good enough when he did play to where it doesn't matter?

Esposito was consistently very good for a long time, but I don't think he ever beat out Dryden or Parent for an All Star team when either was in their primes. His longerm consistency (at least in the regular season) beats out both quite easily though.

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11-06-2012, 11:17 AM
  #8
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Before the thread gets too long, I wanted to bring something up.

Let's trust one another's motives - and assume the best out of other posters and voters. If someone has reason to vote Hasek last in the first round, or someone wants to bring up evidence that questions Bill Durnan, let's assume that all are doing it in the best interest of the project.

We all have our biases and notions, but we also all spend a lot of time taking this seriously, and we all want the most information possible to make our decisions.

Also, let's remember that we all bring different perspectives to the table, and we can all add something valuable (even if we see things differently).

I'm not at the point where I'm ready to delete any post that openly questions others' motives, but the last thread was pretty hard to read.

We're all on the same team here.

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11-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #9
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Comparables

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Don't have much time to post, but first thoughts:

I see this round like this:

1. Frank Brimsek.
2. The rest

I had Georges Vezina my highest ranked after Brimsek on my initial list and I'm starting this round that way. It seems the majority of people who watched him play thought he (not Clint Benedict) was the best of his era. It's possible they were all biased since Benedict played such a "classless, cheating" flopping style that a modern observer would call "innovative," or maybe they underrate him because the last memory of Benedict was leaving Ottawa after being accused of blowing games because he was drunk. But it definitely needs to be noted that both during their careers and afterwards, Vezina was the one talked about by hockey people as the defining goalie of the era. Not to say that Benedict wasn't a superstar himself.

Charlie Gardiner was the defining goalie of the 30s, but I'm not sure his career was long enough to be added quite yet. It would be interesting to compare him to Bill Durnan, as another high-prime, short career goalie.

What makes Johnny Bower's NHL career better than Billy Smiths? How much does his dominance of the O6 AHL add to his legacy?

Ed Belfour has a stronger "on paper" record than Johnny Bower and I don't think his competition was weaker. Should he be ranked higher than Bower? Bower spent most of his career in Toronto in a platoon situation, which really hurt him in All Star voting. Was he good enough when he did play to where it doesn't matter?

Esposito was consistently very good for a long time, but I don't think he ever beat out Dryden or Parent for an All Star team when either was in their primes. His longerm consistency (at least in the regular season) beats out both quite easily though.
Charlie Gardiner. Had the potential to be the defining goaltender of the thirties but for a weak regular season record. His playoff record is incredible but short. On the other hand Normie Smith and Mike Karakas have similar playoff achievements.

Johnny Bower could play a regular season workload. Billy Smith had to be managed for the playoff run.

Tony Esposito showed consistency in his inconsistency. Same could be said about Belfour.

Still waiting for a pro Brimsek position. Sell Brimsek as the defining goalie of the 1940s.

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11-06-2012, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Don't have much time to post, but first thoughts:

I see this round like this:

1. Frank Brimsek.
2. The rest
I'm inclined to agree. Having said that, I also feel like Vezina and Hainsworth are getting pushed down the list a bit far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Esposito was consistently very good for a long time, but I don't think he ever beat out Dryden or Parent for an All Star team when either was in their primes. His longerm consistency (at least in the regular season) beats out both quite easily though.
On that topic, though, how many all-star teams did Esposito possibly "miss out on" up to the mid-70s, given the bias towards recognizing the GAA leader, and little consideration for what some goalies were doing on "bad" teams? Interesting that, under similar scoring environments (273 GF league avg vs 281), he posted similar win/GAA/SO numbers in '75/76 and '79/80, but is a distant 6th in voting for the former and is 1st all-star for the latter.

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11-06-2012, 12:16 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Still waiting for a pro Brimsek position. Sell Brimsek as the defining goalie of the 1940s.
Just wondering, why do we have to ignore two of Brimsek's best seasons of his 10 year career, just because the season starts with a 193X? Because it's more important to try to pigeon-hole him into a definition defined arbitrarily in decade increments? That doesn't make sense to me, if in the process we lose a significant amount of a player's supporting context.

Statistically it's going to be hard to "sell" Brimsek, but there seems to be enough anecdotal newspaper evidence from the time to suggest he deserves to be regarded on a very similar plateau to some contemporaries who get more attention 70 years later because of easily sortable/searchable online stats repositories and lingering outdated biases.

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11-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I don't really understand how the introduction of the Red Line affects anything. Brimsek was the best goalie in the world in the years leading up to the Redline (which was introduced in 1944). And we have evidence that after he got back from the war, he was considered just as good as Durnan as late as 1948.

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11-06-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I had Georges Vezina my highest ranked after Brimsek on my initial list and I'm starting this round that way. It seems the majority of people who watched him play thought he (not Clint Benedict) was the best of his era. It's possible they were all biased since Benedict played such a "classless, cheating" flopping style that a modern observer would call "innovative," or maybe they underrate him because the last memory of Benedict was leaving Ottawa after being accused of blowing games because he was drunk. But it definitely needs to be noted that both during their careers and afterwards, Vezina was the one talked about by hockey people as the defining goalie of the era. Not to say that Benedict wasn't a superstar himself.
When comparing the two, it is worth noting that Vezina simply was better in the 1910's. So many of the quotes supporting Vezina come from that era. Then From 1919-1923 Benedict was unreal. It is no challenge to find him praised at that time as the best in the world. Because he was. Then in 1924, Benedict was involved in a scandal with his drinking problem, and in 1925, Vezina untimely passed away. So Benedict rebuilding his career in Montreal never gets the credit it is due historically. He came in as a veteran leader on an expansion team and help lead them to a Stanley Cup while overcoming his own demons.

Is there a debate who is better between Vezina and Benedict? Absolutely. But look at the context of the newspaper quotes and it is clear that it benefits Vezina. He has years where he either wasn't competing with Benedict or was competing with a young raw Benedict. And then on the other end, Benedict had to compete with the ghost of Vezina. But in both cases, at their best, they were the undisputed best.

I'm not even sure who I rank over who. But I am sure that Vezina and Benedict are 1-2 on my list for this round.

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11-06-2012, 01:11 PM
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Changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't really understand how the introduction of the Red Line affects anything. Brimsek was the best goalie in the world in the years leading up to the Redline (which was introduced in 1944). And we have evidence that after he got back from the war, he was considered just as good as Durnan as late as 1948.
Faster, more offensive game after the Red Line was introduced at the start of the 1943-44 season. Changed the way goalies played.

The pre Red Line gap between Brimsek and Broda was very small.

Re pre/post Red Line an analogy would be how the game changed between 2003-04 and 2005-06 after the last lockout. Few rule changes, tweaks and the game is faster with different goalie emphasis than the dead puck era.Roberto Luongo could get away with certain weaknesses in the old Dead Puck NHL,Tim Thomas could not make the old NHL, etc.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 11-06-2012 at 01:21 PM. Reason: analogy added.
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11-06-2012, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Faster, more offensive game after the Red Line was introduced at the start of the 1943-44 season. Changed the way goalies played.
Didn't the introduction of the Red Line aid Hap Day in implementing a neutral zone trap?

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11-06-2012, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The Kraut Line/Clapper factor used to excuse Brimsek's poor 1942 playoff performance is basically a non-factor.
It isn't a non-factor, nor is it an excuse for poor play. It is simply another factor to be considered, just as your pointing out injuries during Durnan's playoffs.

I brought it up to illustrate that not all "upsets" are equal or even true upsets. His quality of play wasn't even mentioned. Based on his GAA, I'd think it unlikely that he was consistently great, but I'd hold off until I read some game reports at the very least.

Lets look at the loss to McCool and the Leafs in 45.

Montreal 1944-45
VsWLTGFGA
Season3884228121
PO Teams226212772
Toronto5412828

Montreal scored 5 goals a game vs the rest of the league, but only 2.8 vs Toronto, and suffered half their losses vs them as well.

Major upset? Upset? Damn they had their number all year?

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11-06-2012, 02:26 PM
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Defensive Hockey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Didn't the introduction of the Red Line aid Hap Day in implementing a neutral zone trap?
Excellent question.

Basically the Red Line helped define the O6 defensive tactics for forwards. From Hap Day it was passed on to other Leaf coaches. From Toe Blake thru Scotty Bowman thru Jacques Lemaire on the Canadiens.

The Neutral Zone Trap was Jacques Lemaire's contribution, mid 1990's with the Devils. Basically a simplification of the various defensive alignments to fit the short shift game.

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11-06-2012, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The Neutral Zone Trap was Jacques Lemaire's contribution, mid 1990's with the Devils. Basically a simplification of the various defensive alignments to fit the short shift game.
Bob Johnson's Flames were neutral zone trapping in the 1980s. I imagine that it was passed down to him somewhere, although I can't trace the lineage.

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11-06-2012, 02:32 PM
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Upsets

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It isn't a non-factor, nor is it an excuse for poor play. It is simply another factor to be considered, just as your pointing out injuries during Durnan's playoffs.

I brought it up to illustrate that not all "upsets" are equal or even true upsets. His quality of play wasn't even mentioned. Based on his GAA, I'd think it unlikely that he was consistently great, but I'd hold off until I read some game reports at the very least.

Lets look at the loss to McCool and the Leafs in 45.

Montreal 1944-45
VsWLTGFGA
Season3884228121
PO Teams226212772
Toronto5412828

Montreal scored 5 goals a game vs the rest of the league, but only 2.8 vs Toronto, and suffered half their losses vs them as well.

Major upset? Upset? Damn they had their number all year?
Agree with you about the upsets. History of the NHL is full of playoff match-ups where a lower seed had all the qualities to beat a higher ranked team and did.

Unfortunately these situations instead of being studied get dismissed for a variety of reasons.

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11-06-2012, 02:36 PM
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Jacques Lemaire

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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Bob Johnson's Flames were neutral zone trapping in the 1980s. I imagine that it was passed down to him somewhere, although I can't trace the lineage.
Jacques Lemaire with the Canadiens 1984-85 as part of the overall defensive package. Previously he used it in the Q.

Still in the second half of the 1980s the Neutral Zone Trap was part of the tool box whereas in the Dead Puck Era it became the tool box.

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11-06-2012, 02:37 PM
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Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Excellent question.

Basically the Red Line helped define the O6 defensive tactics for forwards. From Hap Day it was passed on to other Leaf coaches. From Toe Blake thru Scotty Bowman thru Jacques Lemaire on the Canadiens.

The Neutral Zone Trap was Jacques Lemaire's contribution, mid 1990's with the Devils. Basically a simplification of the various defensive alignments to fit the short shift game.
Proto forms of the trap date back to Tommy Gorman, if not earlier. While Lemaire had his own specific form of the trap. The term is more of a general term for locking play in the neutral zone.

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11-06-2012, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
Proto forms of the trap date back to Tommy Gorman, if not earlier. While Lemaire had his own specific form of the trap. The term is more of a general term for locking play in the neutral zone.
Throw in Cecil Hart as well. Neutral zone went thru changes as the game opened up due to rule changes - forward pass, Red Line, etc.

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11-06-2012, 03:28 PM
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Gardiner should have been in the last group.

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11-06-2012, 04:02 PM
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Gardiner should have been in the last group.
I'm not so sure that it matters - unless you think he would have cracked the top four of Sawchuk/Brodeur/Dryden/Tretiak. If anything, his introduction in this group instead of the last group should work as an extra incentive for someone to make a case for him as #9-12. I don't have him there, but if you do, I'd love to hear why.

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11-06-2012, 04:16 PM
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Gardiner played 7 seasons in the NHL. Post-season all star teams were around for the last four, in which Gardiner earned 3 1st Team's and 1 2nd Team, despite leading the league in GAA only once. Next step is compiling information from his first 3 seasons in the league.

An article from the Ottawa citizen which gives the results of the 10 NHL club managers picking 1st and 2nd AS teams shows that Gardiner was not among the top 2 goalies in his rookie season of 1927-28. Worters and Hainsworth were awarded the 1st and 2nd Team spots respectively.

Link: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...orge+hay&hl=en


In 1928-29, one writer picks his own AS teams for the first half of the season, and he gives Worters the first spot, backed up by Gardiner. Chicago's record at the time of the article was 4-17-4, and they finished the season 3-12-4, which is about the same pts per game wise.

Link: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...gardiner&hl=en


The next season the Blackhawks have a big improvement jumping from last in the league to 5th (2nd in their division). At this time I do not have any articles describing Gardiner's play that season, but I also haven't looked yet. If anyone has anything please post it, if not I will do some research later.

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