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Old
11-02-2012, 12:20 AM
  #101
The Zetterberg Era
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
You've heard, I've watched.
I thought Tatar outplayed him for the first four or so games. Not by a ton, but just as I don't think Nyquist has outplayed Tatar by a ton since. They have both been impressive and played well.

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11-02-2012, 01:34 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Fact of the matter is you can go on about stats all you want but all that post about the stats did showed who actually watches the games and who doesnt. SO when Eva is going on about Tatar we know he didnt actually watch him play or else he would see Nyquist has still been better
My comment was simply related to statistical pace. It didn't say "Tatar is better, he has more points right now."

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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This has been my take so I am glad to hear you have the same opinion. Tatar had a nice stretch when he first made it to the A but he's never had the consistency you'd like to see. It's also interesting that he's suddenly started producing with Nyquist as his linemate.
Maybe he's developing as he gets older? What would Nyquist have done in the A in 2009-10? Would he have done as well as Tatar did last year?

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The same thing happened with Jiri Hudler, for some strange coincidence he always produced at a higher level when he was on Val Filppula's line.

I wonder why that would be?
That's a strange coincidence... Filppula always did better when he was playing with Hudler.

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11-02-2012, 01:46 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I thought Tatar outplayed him for the first four or so games. Not by a ton, but just as I don't think Nyquist has outplayed Tatar by a ton since. They have both been impressive and played well.
I think it has something to do with what you appreciate too. Nyquist has been kind of sneaky and smart, while Tatar is more of the skate-really-*******-fast-all-over-the-place type guy. So Tatar looks like he's putting in a lot more effort than Nyquist is at times.

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11-02-2012, 02:08 AM
  #104
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Nyquist and Tatar have both been good. I'm not sure there's a big difference between the performance of the two of them so far. In the two games I've watched, Nyquist has been more impressive, but not by a lot.

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11-02-2012, 03:27 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Nyquist and Tatar have both been good. I'm not sure there's a big difference between the performance of the two of them so far. In the two games I've watched, Nyquist has been more impressive, but not by a lot.
Yes, they have been. And the are those two forwards who HAVE TO be good. Everything else is going well, we are not expecting anything special from others. If somebody does better, it's plus.

Only disappoinment is Brendan Smith, but his situation is understandable. He must hate the lockout really much, like we do.

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11-02-2012, 03:38 AM
  #106
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Being drafted by Detroit has probably cost that poor kid around 2M already from being in the AHL instead of the NHL, and now this lockout is just like spitting in his face costing him even more NHL money. Wonder if he ever wishes he had been drafted by Columbus and playing in the NHL with an NHL salary 2 or 3 years ago.

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11-02-2012, 03:41 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Being drafted by Detroit has probably cost that poor kid around 2M already from being in the AHL instead of the NHL, and now this lockout is just like spitting in his face costing him even more NHL money. Wonder if he ever wishes he had been drafted by Columbus and playing in the NHL with an NHL salary 2 or 3 years ago.
Haha. Being drafted by Columbus could have mean that they destroy your confidence in 1-2 years and you won't ever see a single NHL-game again.

I can see it both way. Detroit creates more secure NHL-career for you, if you do it through the minors. Or you can take the boom or bust way with weak team with "too young, too fast" -prospect development.

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11-02-2012, 04:15 AM
  #108
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It would suck getting drafted by columbus and realizing that even though youre making your millions right away, you're never gonna sniff a cup. I think almost every NHL player would trade a couple million for a legitimate chance to win the cup

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11-02-2012, 06:33 AM
  #109
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so before it was who was better, D or Z?

then it became, who is better, Flip or Huds,

I guess the next pair that we will argue about forever on these boards in the next few years is going to be

who is better, Nyquist or Tatar?

it could have also been Jarnkrok versus Pulkinnen but it seems like at the moment Jarnkrok will win that battle easily

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11-02-2012, 09:29 AM
  #110
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Maybe the Tatar vs. Gus discussion is inevitable, but I am not sure that I see why Gus' play is relevant to the development of Tatar. Has Tatar looked good this year? The answer is a clear yes based upon the games that I have watched. Does he look much better than he did at this time last year? Yes. Is he producing at a reasonable clip? Yes. Has his skating improved? Yes in my opinion. These things collectively tell me that he is still a very useful prospect and may still be a valuable contributor to the big club in the near future.

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11-02-2012, 09:44 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by the banks View Post
I think almost every NHL player would trade a couple million for a legitimate chance to win the cup
Don't bet on that.

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11-02-2012, 10:08 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Haha. Being drafted by Columbus could have mean that they destroy your confidence in 1-2 years and you won't ever see a single NHL-game again.

I can see it both way. Detroit creates more secure NHL-career for you, if you do it through the minors. Or you can take the boom or bust way with weak team with "too young, too fast" -prospect development.
Detroit doesn't create a more secure for anyone?
Columbus is really bad a t developing hockey players. I don't know if it's because they get too much too soon or not. But they're awful at it.

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11-02-2012, 10:09 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
so before it was who was better, D or Z?

then it became, who is better, Flip or Huds,

I guess the next pair that we will argue about forever on these boards in the next few years is going to be

who is better, Nyquist or Tatar?

it could have also been Jarnkrok versus Pulkinnen but it seems like at the moment Jarnkrok will win that battle easily

Before that it was Fedorov vs Yzerman.
Lidstrom vs Konstantinov

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11-02-2012, 10:43 AM
  #114
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Would love to see Tats playing alongside Helm and Cleary whenever the season begins. That would be an awesome 3rd line with a decent scoring punch.

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11-02-2012, 12:22 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
Being drafted by Detroit has probably cost that poor kid around 2M already from being in the AHL instead of the NHL, and now this lockout is just like spitting in his face costing him even more NHL money. Wonder if he ever wishes he had been drafted by Columbus and playing in the NHL with an NHL salary 2 or 3 years ago.
Tatar needed that time in the minors, he is a far better player because of it. Now we have gotten to the time he doesn't need more, but previous to about the middle of last year unless you were asking him only to play offense and didn't care about anything else he wasn't ready. Which Columbus and the NYI probably would have been fine with and he would have been out of the league within around five years.

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11-02-2012, 12:31 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Tatar needed that time in the minors, he is a far better player because of it. Now we have gotten to the time he doesn't need more, but previous to about the middle of last year unless you were asking him only to play offense and didn't care about anything else he wasn't ready. Which Columbus and the NYI probably would have been fine with and he would have been out of the league within around five years.
believe that the poster you quoted was referring to Smith and not Tatar.


Last edited by Frk It: 11-02-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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11-02-2012, 12:35 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Tatar needed that time in the minors, he is a far better player because of it. Now we have gotten to the time he doesn't need more, but previous to about the middle of last year unless you were asking him only to play offense and didn't care about anything else he wasn't ready. Which Columbus and the NYI probably would have been fine with and he would have been out of the league within around five years.
Have the Islanders or even Blue Jackets put a bunch of second round picks in the NHL as 18 year olds?

Dan Fritsche is the only one I can see.

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11-02-2012, 12:48 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Frk It View Post
believe that the poster you quoted was referring to Smith and not Tatar.
Could be, I should have read a little closer, I have pointed out the Smith 2 million thing several times. Because I think in upcoming contract negotiations that will be an issue. Just like Big E wasn't all that interested in taking less and Quincey didn't budge even though he had just come back. Some of these more recent guys are rightfully saying you owe the money, you don't get to stall my development and save huge amounts of money. The hometown discount is going out, really what do Kronwall, Franzen and Z have in common? Kronwall was only forced down because of the lockout, otherwise they didn't spend a whole lot of time sitting around waiting for their chance.

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11-02-2012, 12:54 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Could be, I should have read a little closer, I have pointed out the Smith 2 million thing several times. Because I think in upcoming contract negotiations that will be an issue. Just like Big E wasn't all that interested in taking less and Quincey didn't budge even though he had just come back. Some of these more recent guys are rightfully saying you owe the money, you don't get to stall my development and save huge amounts of money. The hometown discount is going out, really what do Kronwall, Franzen and Z have in common? Kronwall was only forced down because of the lockout, otherwise they didn't spend a whole lot of time sitting around waiting for their chance.
That is a very good point, and if I am one of those guys buried in the AHL, especially someone with obvious NHL talent like Smith, I am going to factor that in when making my decision.

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11-02-2012, 03:47 PM
  #120
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Before that it was Fedorov vs Yzerman.
Lidstrom vs Konstantinov
You missed Osgood vs. Legace.

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11-06-2012, 01:38 AM
  #121
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Detroit needs to start looking at what Philadelphia does.

Can you imagine what Detroit would have done if they had drafted Claude Giroux? At the age of 24 he's already proven to be one of the best forwards in the league. He'd be entering his rookie season right now with the Red Wings.

The Flyers know when the cut dead weight. Cleary should have been off this team two years ago. Start sprinkling youth across all your lines, not just your bottom six.

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11-06-2012, 08:48 AM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Claypool View Post
Detroit needs to start looking at what Philadelphia does.

Can you imagine what Detroit would have done if they had drafted Claude Giroux? At the age of 24 he's already proven to be one of the best forwards in the league. He'd be entering his rookie season right now with the Red Wings.

The Flyers know when the cut dead weight. Cleary should have been off this team two years ago. Start sprinkling youth across all your lines, not just your bottom six.
Trade two of your top players and watch them go on to win a cup the following season?

Bit of a flippant answer, but I'm not sure why Philly is always held up as the team we should emulate. Why not emulate SJ? Or Vancouver? Or Boston? Why should we emulate anyone?

Maybe we haven't had guys force their way onto the roster because we haven't drafted a lot of guys who should be on our roster. We were probably going to see that change a bit this season with Gus and Smith, but we haven't had a guy like Gus and Smith since...well, Flip and Huds (2002).

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11-06-2012, 10:10 AM
  #123
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Trade two of your top players and watch them go on to win a cup the following season?

Bit of a flippant answer, but I'm not sure why Philly is always held up as the team we should emulate. Why not emulate SJ? Or Vancouver? Or Boston? Why should we emulate anyone?

Maybe we haven't had guys force their way onto the roster because we haven't drafted a lot of guys who should be on our roster. We were probably going to see that change a bit this season with Gus and Smith, but we haven't had a guy like Gus and Smith since...well, Flip and Huds (2002).
And I'm not sure why Philly is so reviled? Is it because they play a bit more of a smash-mouth game? That they have Pronger? That their GM is the opposite of Holland's tortoise-like approach (Ken Holland used to be as crazy as Holmgren)

I don't really care. I think there's a happy medium in there somehwere.
But Detroit doesn't give kids the chance. Maybe we've drafted a bunch of bums.
Maybe Smith and Mursak and Nyquist and Tatar are not NHL talent.
Maybe Quincey never had any business in the NHL.

But I doubt it. I think Detroit is ultra slow in developing prospects -- Not because it's a good way to develop, but because Detroit doesn't have the guts to play rookies over veterans.

And because Detroit has a tendency of being extremely loyal to veterans.

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11-06-2012, 10:56 AM
  #124
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But I doubt it. I think Detroit is ultra slow in developing prospects -- Not because it's a good way to develop, but because Detroit doesn't have the guts to play rookies over veterans.

And because Detroit has a tendency of being extremely loyal to veterans.
That's how you control the salary cap. Nothing else. You keep the youngsters down and kill the lucrative 2nd contract after the ELC. The same thing that Brian Burke is whining all the time. When Brian Burke considers in whining, Red Wings just roll their contract killer system and smile. "We know how to deal with it."

Everything is based on that system. That's why they sign cheap veterans to play those years (instead of the youngsters) with good prize/quality range.

"Loyalty" is another word for it, but in reality, it's a secure way to control salaries inside the team. The talent doesn't disappear anywhere if you keep the guys down. The good kids will come through, with a 1-2 year delay, but more matured, with more confidence.

It's a pure Ken Holland -vision, how he felt his experiment as a young goalie. When you are not ready, your place is not in NHL. You get called up, when you are ready.

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11-06-2012, 11:23 AM
  #125
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That's how you control the salary cap. Nothing else. You keep the youngsters down and kill the lucrative 2nd contract after the ELC. The same thing that Brian Burke is whining all the time. When Brian Burke considers in whining, Red Wings just roll their contract killer system and smile. "We know how to deal with it."

Everything is based on that system. That's why they sign cheap veterans to play those years (instead of the youngsters) with good prize/quality range.

"Loyalty" is another word for it, but in reality, it's a secure way to control salaries inside the team. The talent doesn't disappear anywhere if you keep the guys down. The good kids will come through, with a 1-2 year delay, but more matured, with more confidence.

It's a pure Ken Holland -vision, how he felt his experiment as a young goalie. When you are not ready, your place is not in NHL. You get called up, when you are ready.

The Holland hero worshippers always find new ways to polish turds.
There's truth to what you say about controlling salaries, but that's an extremely small part of the puzzle.

We're spending $3M on Sammuelsson. We're spending $2M on tootoo.
Which youngsters are we saving money on, exactly?

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