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Springfield Falcons/Evansville Icemen Thread III (All Affiliate talk here)

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11-05-2012, 11:36 AM
  #776
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Perhaps the success of the team and the top prospects is due to the players being where they should be at this stage of their careers?

Regardless, it is very encouraging to finally have a minor league affiliate performing at a level that suggests promise for the future.

My opinion, which I'm sure will be in the minority, is to leave as many of these guys as possible in Springfield for as long as possible to help the long term development of the Jackets.
I feel the same way, I dont think Johansen should have been called up from the WHL his first year, and shouldve played in the AHL or WHL last year whatever he was eligible for.

edit: just watched the highlights to the game, johans second goal was nasty. Not to mention his play to keep the puck in for the first goal, good cycling. I think a season in the AHL is going to make the jackets deadly next year. HOPEFULLY it will make JAM, johan, calvert and atkinson that much more hungry to suceed at a NHL level. Not to mention anisimov and foligno should have a pretty good season.


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11-05-2012, 12:40 PM
  #777
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I feel the same way, I dont think Johansen should have been called up from the WHL his first year, and shouldve played in the AHL or WHL last year whatever he was eligible for.

edit: just watched the highlights to the game, johans second goal was nasty. Not to mention his play to keep the puck in for the first goal, good cycling. I think a season in the AHL is going to make the jackets deadly next year. HOPEFULLY it will make JAM, johan, calvert and atkinson that much more hungry to suceed at a NHL level. Not to mention anisimov and foligno should have a pretty good season.
He was ineligible for the AHL and it was widely thought that he had nothing left to prove at the CHL level.

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11-05-2012, 12:53 PM
  #778
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He was ineligible for the AHL and it was widely thought that he had nothing left to prove at the CHL level.
Thats what i thought, but hardly playing any games and doing nothing doesnt help, although practicing with the NHL squad im sure helped tremendously.

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11-05-2012, 02:23 PM
  #779
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Thats what i thought, but hardly playing any games and doing nothing doesnt help, although practicing with the NHL squad im sure helped tremendously.

He played 67 Games, averaged 12:44 min and 17 shifts, was 9-12 21, and had 3 GWG.

He learned was it like to live in, travel, work out, practice, and play in the NHL. He got a taste and was given what was expected of him over the summer and he did it. Came back bigger and stronger.

I'm not sure tearing up the WHL another year would have stood him any better.

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11-05-2012, 03:01 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by EspenK View Post
Perhaps the success of the team and the top prospects is due to the players being where they should be at this stage of their careers?

Regardless, it is very encouraging to finally have a minor league affiliate performing at a level that suggests promise for the future.

My opinion, which I'm sure will be in the minority, is to leave as many of these guys as possible in Springfield for as long as possible to help the long term development of the Jackets.
Normally I would want them to stay in the AHL, CHL, etc...., but especially this year. I don't think there is much to gain from bringing them up for a shortened season. Plus, the draft is loaded. While I don't want us to lose on purpose, it probably would be best for the team to get as high of a draft pick as possible.

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11-05-2012, 07:39 PM
  #781
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He played 67 Games, averaged 12:44 min and 17 shifts, was 9-12 21, and had 3 GWG.

He learned was it like to live in, travel, work out, practice, and play in the NHL. He got a taste and was given what was expected of him over the summer and he did it. Came back bigger and stronger.
I agree with this part of your post, for sure. I can't remember who it was, but I remember a color commentator mentioning that every player has to go through the hardships of learning the NHL, which usually results in an "off year". For some guys, it's their rookie year - for many, it's a sophomore slump ... in the case of a guy like Steve Mason, perhaps it never happened. The best example of this is Tyler Seguin; who struggled to get ice time as a rookie, but learned the NHL life and came back stronger, more determined, and better prepared to make the team than the year before. This is what we have to hope for with Ryan Johansen.

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11-05-2012, 07:44 PM
  #782
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While I don't want us to lose on purpose, it probably would be best for the team to get as high of a draft pick as possible.
Before John Davidson's hiring, I would have agreed with this wholeheartedly. However, one thing JD specializes in - as has Craig Patrick in the past - is finding talent in every round of the draft. Think of the main guns in St Louis' arsenal - guys like Oshie, Berglund, Backes, Perron, and Schwartz - all Blues draft picks, and the highest any of them were picked was Schwartz at 14th overall.

Developing them properly is the key. The Jackets have missed out on this sorely in their history, and I think that's definitely going to change with these guys at the helm.

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11-05-2012, 07:58 PM
  #783
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I agree with this part of your post, for sure. I can't remember who it was, but I remember a color commentator mentioning that every player has to go through the hardships of learning the NHL, which usually results in an "off year". For some guys, it's their rookie year - for many, it's a sophomore slump ... in the case of a guy like Steve Mason, perhaps it never happened. The best example of this is Tyler Seguin; who struggled to get ice time as a rookie, but learned the NHL life and came back stronger, more determined, and better prepared to make the team than the year before. This is what we have to hope for with Ryan Johansen.
I didn't mean to infer that another WHL year was worthless. I just felt that the NHL experience served him better. It would have been even more so without the debacle that was Arniel.

I honestly don't remember but didn't he fare better under Richards.

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11-05-2012, 08:26 PM
  #784
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I honestly don't remember but didn't he fare better under Richards.
No, not at all. Not even close.

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11-05-2012, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
Before John Davidson's hiring, I would have agreed with this wholeheartedly. However, one thing JD specializes in - as has Craig Patrick in the past - is finding talent in every round of the draft. Think of the main guns in St Louis' arsenal - guys like Oshie, Berglund, Backes, Perron, and Schwartz - all Blues draft picks, and the highest any of them were picked was Schwartz at 14th overall.

Developing them properly is the key. The Jackets have missed out on this sorely in their history, and I think that's definitely going to change with these guys at the helm.
Backes, Oshie, and Berglund were all drafted before Davidson arrived in St. Louis. I'd also argue that the Blues' drafting record since Davidson arrived is spotty at best.

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11-06-2012, 06:22 AM
  #786
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No, not at all. Not even close.
Thanks

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11-06-2012, 10:03 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Sore Loser View Post
Before John Davidson's hiring, I would have agreed with this wholeheartedly. However, one thing JD specializes in - as has Craig Patrick in the past - is finding talent in every round of the draft. Think of the main guns in St Louis' arsenal - guys like Oshie, Berglund, Backes, Perron, and Schwartz - all Blues draft picks, and the highest any of them were picked was Schwartz at 14th overall.

Developing them properly is the key. The Jackets have missed out on this sorely in their history, and I think that's definitely going to change with these guys at the helm.
2007 was the 1st draft for Davidson in St.Louis and Howson in Columbus. If you look past the 1st round you wouldn't find any legit NHLers drafted by the Blues during that period.
Columbus' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: York, Mayorov, Calvert, Kubalik, Atkinson, Prout, Savard. 2-3 of those guys are gonna be on the Jackets roster when the season starts.
St.Louis' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: Phil MacRae and Aaron Palushaj. And nothing else. Where is all the talent Davidson can find "in every round"? Am I missing something?

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11-06-2012, 10:23 AM
  #788
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2007 was the 1st draft for Davidson in St.Louis and Howson in Columbus. If you look past the 1st round you wouldn't find any legit NHLers drafted by the Blues during that period.
Columbus' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: York, Mayorov, Calvert, Kubalik, Atkinson, Prout, Savard. 2-3 of those guys are gonna be on the Jackets roster when the season starts.
St.Louis' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: Phil MacRae and Aaron Palushaj. And nothing else. Where is all the talent Davidson can find "in every round"? Am I missing something?
But somebody in neon green told me Howson was horrible and stuff, and that having somebody else was the solution we were all waiting for.

So your facts are irrelevant.

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11-06-2012, 10:55 AM
  #789
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2007 was the 1st draft for Davidson in St.Louis and Howson in Columbus. If you look past the 1st round you wouldn't find any legit NHLers drafted by the Blues during that period.
Columbus' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: York, Mayorov, Calvert, Kubalik, Atkinson, Prout, Savard. 2-3 of those guys are gonna be on the Jackets roster when the season starts.
St.Louis' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: Phil MacRae and Aaron Palushaj. And nothing else. Where is all the talent Davidson can find "in every round"? Am I missing something?
It's not all about that. Davidson is going to change the culture and demand winning. He also traded a lot of picks in order to have assets NOW for the Blues on their upswing.

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11-06-2012, 11:23 AM
  #790
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Before John Davidson's hiring, I would have agreed with this wholeheartedly. However, one thing JD specializes in - as has Craig Patrick in the past - is finding talent in every round of the draft. Think of the main guns in St Louis' arsenal - guys like Oshie, Berglund, Backes, Perron, and Schwartz - all Blues draft picks, and the highest any of them were picked was Schwartz at 14th overall.

Developing them properly is the key. The Jackets have missed out on this sorely in their history, and I think that's definitely going to change with these guys at the helm.
I agree, but IMO, we need to get a top pick this year. The top guys are just so good this year.

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11-06-2012, 11:24 AM
  #791
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It's not all about that. Davidson is going to change the culture and demand winning. He also traded a lot of picks in order to have assets NOW for the Blues on their upswing.
And that has exactly what to do with finding talent across the various rounds of the draft? Edmonton and Montreal both created a winning culture and a demand for excellence, but both saw their dynasties undone by years upon years of poor drafting.

At least with Columbus since 2007, there are still a hell of a lot of guys in the system who look like they'll be NHL players. St. Louis has a lot of guys who are not NHL players, never will be NHL players, and whose value is so low that they'll never be able to be traded for NHL assets at all.

"Culture" doesn't mean a damn thing if there isn't the ability to locate talent, which St. Louis under Davidson did a poor job of (and Columbus under Howson has done a much better job of).

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11-06-2012, 11:27 AM
  #792
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2007 was the 1st draft for Davidson in St.Louis and Howson in Columbus. If you look past the 1st round you wouldn't find any legit NHLers drafted by the Blues during that period.
Columbus' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: York, Mayorov, Calvert, Kubalik, Atkinson, Prout, Savard. 2-3 of those guys are gonna be on the Jackets roster when the season starts.
St.Louis' non-1st round picks with NHL experience: Phil MacRae and Aaron Palushaj. And nothing else. Where is all the talent Davidson can find "in every round"? Am I missing something?
IMO, that is why we shouldn't fire Howson. Davidson is here to put a TEAM together. That is something Howson isn't good at or at least he hasn't been good at it so far. Howson does have things he is good at though.

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11-06-2012, 11:33 AM
  #793
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Of the many problems with the jackets in the Howson era talent evaluation hasn't been a major issue. As mentioned numerous times player development has been the biggest weakness of the organization and you can't build a good team without it. Add in the fact that we have been out of position to draft guys who are elite and can become stars on their own (Top 5 picks in 2010 and 2012 only since '07) and we have our current team.

My hope is that in Davidson we finally have some leading the organization that understands the grim reality of the Franchise, WE SUCK, we need to rebuild. The guys at the top didn't want to admit this (Rick Nash asked to be traded, the team didn't decide to rebuild they were more or less forced to when the one star we had wanted out.) Davidson seems to have the balls to stay the course, let players develop, and build the team properly.

As bad as the lockout is I really am starting to hope it goes for a full season. Pulling guys like Johansen, Erixon, and Moore out of Springfield when they are developing so well scares me. I'd rather let them stay down for a season and let them take over next year in primary roles. They are learning how to win down in the AHL, and many of the prospects are showing amazing growth stunting that with a season where we are likely to end up out of the playoffs again doesn't make sense. (not to mention the greatly improved draft a lockout likely gives us.)

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11-06-2012, 11:34 AM
  #794
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IMO, that is why we shouldn't fire Howson. Davidson is here to put a TEAM together. That is something Howson isn't good at or at least he hasn't been good at it so far. Howson does have things he is good at though.
TEAM is absolutely right. No one can do it all by themselves. Doggie tried and and we all know how that turned out. And since then the front office has been sorely understaffed. From all accounts JD's biggest strength is his team building skill. There are a lot of good pieces in place here can't wait to see it come together.

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11-06-2012, 11:48 AM
  #795
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Of the many problems with the jackets in the Howson era talent evaluation hasn't been a major issue. As mentioned numerous times player development has been the biggest weakness of the organization and you can't build a good team without it. Add in the fact that we have been out of position to draft guys who are elite and can become stars on their own (Top 5 picks in 2010 and 2012 only since '07) and we have our current team.

My hope is that in Davidson we finally have some leading the organization that understands the grim reality of the Franchise, WE SUCK, we need to rebuild. The guys at the top didn't want to admit this (Rick Nash asked to be traded, the team didn't decide to rebuild they were more or less forced to when the one star we had wanted out.) Davidson seems to have the balls to stay the course, let players develop, and build the team properly.

As bad as the lockout is I really am starting to hope it goes for a full season. Pulling guys like Johansen, Erixon, and Moore out of Springfield when they are developing so well scares me. I'd rather let them stay down for a season and let them take over next year in primary roles. They are learning how to win down in the AHL, and many of the prospects are showing amazing growth stunting that with a season where we are likely to end up out of the playoffs again doesn't make sense. (not to mention the greatly improved draft a lockout likely gives us.)
No no no that is back assward thinking. Davidson and his team need at least a part of the season to evaluate what talent is here. Will Nikitin turn out to be for real? What kind of a contribution will the new guys make? Is Bobrovsky an answer in goal? Is Mason truly committed or gone?

A lot of the young guns could still be left in SPR or they might just actually be ready.

And a lottery is terrible gamble, sure we could be first, we could also be last. There was a 50% chance of getting the first pick last year and what the hell's going to happen with a less than 10%. Sure with LA's and NYR's picks, the CBJ have the best odds; that does NOT mean they're good odds. Much rather rely on our record for better or worse.

The lock out has given the TEAM a chance to breathe, but the very worst scenario is to lose the season.


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11-06-2012, 12:10 PM
  #796
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No no no that is back assward thinking. Davidson and his team need at least a part of the season to evaluate what talent is here. Will Nikitin turn out to be for real? What kind of a contribution will the new guys make? Is Bobrovsky an answer in goal? Is Mason truly committed or gone?

A lot of the young guns could still be left in SPR or they might just actually be ready.

And a lottery is terrible gamble, sure we could be first, we could also be last. Much rather rely on our record for better or worse.

The lock out has given the TEAM a chance to breathe, but the very worst scenario is to lose the season.
I'll concede that the season would give Davidson an excellent chance to evaluate the team, and that it would give alot of answers going forward of what to make our core group of players and who should be shipped out for other assets. And granted some guys like Erixon and Atkinson likely wouldn't get buried on the fourth line, (though Johan beating out two of Dubinsky, Anisimov, Brassard for the second line center job is unlikely).

However, while the draft is a big risk, we have something like an 11% chance of a number one which is about a better chance IMHO than we have of getting if there is a season (my bet is we pick about seventh), and not only that New York and LA are both likely to go deep in the playoffs meaning their picks would be late, late first, where as in the lottery either pick could be in the top 5. I don't want to pin all our hopes on getting miracle prospects (they are after all called prospects for a reason), but for a team who's biggest problem is a lack of elite scoring a multiple top 20 picks in this draft could shorten the time required to build this team into a winner by years.


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11-06-2012, 12:41 PM
  #797
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I'll concede that the season would give Davidson an excellent chance to evaluate the team, and that it would give alot of answers going forward of what to make our core group of players and who should be shipped out for other assets. And granted some guys like Erixon and Atkinson likely wouldn't get buried on the fourth line, (though Johan beating out two of Dubinsky, Anisimov, Brassard for the second line center job is unlikely).

However, while the draft is a big risk, we have something like an 11% chance of a number one which is about a better chance IMHO than we have of getting if there is a season (my bet is we pick about seventh), and not only that New York and LA are both likely to go deep in the playoffs meaning their picks would be late, late first, where as in the lottery either pick could be in the top 5.
The only way to know what there is to build on is to play. Too many reasons here to play.

If we play a three offensive line roll as been suggested then Johan fits right in, but how are we going to know if they don't skate. If he need's it he can stay in SPR, JD does preach patience.

The draft is a deep draft, any pick in the top ten will be an excellent pick. If the team flounders as is generally believed a lottery pick is possible. If, however, it does comes together, three picks in the first round will all be good picks. Think Boone Jenner. Why do so many eschew success? What is wrong with winning? Or if the staff think it wise, there are assets to move up.

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11-06-2012, 01:32 PM
  #798
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Quick comparison here.

NHL teams draft picks since 2007 who have played at least one NHL game, AND who have played at least 50 games. This does include players who did not sign with their original team and went elsewhere (like the Islanders, who drafted Jared Spurgeon and never signed him; he's played over 100 games with Minnesota).

Obviously, this doesn't take caliber of player into account or anything. Maxime Sauve counts as much in the first number as Steven Stamkos. But it still provides an insight into who's finding talent, and how often. In the case of the Islanders, it's obviously skewed because they'd had a massive number of late-season callups who get 1 or 2 games, and in Edmonton's case it's skewed because they enjoy picking at the top every year.

NY Islanders - 17 (6) (10 of the other 11 have less than 20 games)
Edmonton - 13 (7)
Columbus - 12 (5)
Colorado - 12 (5)
Ottawa - 12 (3)
Los Angeles - 11 (8)
Minnesota - 11 (4)
Nashville - 11 (5)
Anaheim - 10 (4)
St. Louis - 10 (4)
Buffalo - 9 (3)
Chicago - 9 (2)
Florida - 9 (5)
Philadelphia - 9 (4)
Calgary - 8 (3)
New Jersey - 8 (6)
NY Rangers - 8 (5)
Tampa Bay - 8 (4)
Atlanta - 7 (2)
Boston - 7 (2)
Carolina - 7 (5)
San Jose - 7 (4)
Washington - 7 (4)
Dallas - 6 (3)
Detroit - 6 (0)
Montreal - 6 (4)
Phoenix - 6 (4)
Pittsburgh - 6 (1)
Toronto - 5 (4)
Vancouver - 2 (1)

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11-06-2012, 01:38 PM
  #799
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The only way to know what there is to build on is to play. Too many reasons here to play.

If we play a three offensive line roll as been suggested then Johan fits right in, but how are we going to know if they don't skate. If he need's it he can stay in SPR, JD does preach patience.

The draft is a deep draft, any pick in the top ten will be an excellent pick. If the team flounders as is generally believed a lottery pick is possible. If, however, it does comes together, three picks in the first round will all be good picks. Think Boone Jenner. Why do so many eschew success? What is wrong with winning? Or if the staff think it wise, there are assets to move up.
Its not that I eschew winning, I just have never seen the point to the middle of the pack team. If we win and go the the playoffs I'd be ecstatic, but winning enough to be the 10th in the west and 19th overall is to me somewhat pointless, sports is about winning championships. Getting to the playoffs is the first step, its just my personal opinion but I'd rather end up the worst team in the league with a chance to draft organization changing players who can lead us to the promised land.

As to your other point, I just don't agree that we don't know what the strengths and weaknesses of our team our. Granted we don't know if certain guys seasons were an abberation or not (Dubinsky) or if some guys can continue their level of play (Johnson, Nikitin, Wiz), but we know generally the Strengths and weaknesses. We have a good young defense with alot of high potential players coming along soon (Erixon, Moore, Murray). We know we have major question marks in net and need to continue building our goalie prosepct pool. We know we have alot of quality second/third liners, but we lack true offensive talent in our top six (no number one center, no elite goal scorers, no elite playmakers). We don't need a season to tell us that our team (26th in goals for last year) lost its best offensive player and didn't replace him with any other threat. (Dubinsky, Foligno, and Anisimov may score more cumulatively than Nash, but we lack someone who can be creative offensively)

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11-06-2012, 01:55 PM
  #800
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Its not that I eschew winning, I just have never seen the point to the middle of the pack team. If we win and go the the playoffs I'd be ecstatic, but winning enough to be the 10th in the west and 19th overall is to me somewhat pointless, sports is about winning championships. Getting to the playoffs is the first step, its just my personal opinion but I'd rather end up the worst team in the league with a chance to draft organization changing players who can lead us to the promised land.

As to your other point, I just don't agree that we don't know what the strengths and weaknesses of our team our. Granted we don't know if certain guys seasons were an abberation or not (Dubinsky) or if some guys can continue their level of play (Johnson, Nikitin, Wiz), but we know generally the Strengths and weaknesses. We have a good young defense with alot of high potential players coming along soon (Erixon, Moore, Murray). We know we have major question marks in net and need to continue building our goalie prosepct pool. We know we have alot of quality second/third liners, but we lack true offensive talent in our top six (no number one center, no elite goal scorers, no elite playmakers). We don't need a season to tell us that our team (26th in goals for last year) lost its best offensive player and didn't replace him with any other threat. (Dubinsky, Foligno, and Anisimov may score more cumulatively than Nash, but we lack someone who can be creative offensively)
You play to win the game.

And if you don't there's no reason to play.

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