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Ovi can't even light up the KHL, can we finally admit that he's past his prime?

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Old
11-05-2012, 01:50 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
He wasn't getting first line minutes nor first line power play time, when he played in RSL.
Does he now? I think some people have complained that he doesn't get that much minutes in KHL?

I have seen some games, he did play but I wouldn't say they were clear first line minutes. Too lazy to dig up stats.

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11-05-2012, 01:56 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Does he now? I think some people have complained that he doesn't get that much minutes in KHL?

I have seen some games, he did play but I wouldn't say they were clear first line minutes. Too lazy to dig up stats.
18:19 per game according to http://en.khl.ru/players/325/

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11-05-2012, 07:27 PM
  #328
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Wow people hate Ovi. I guess E. Kane is over the hill since he only has one point in 11 KHL games...

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11-05-2012, 08:09 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
Wow people hate Ovi. I guess E. Kane is over the hill since he only has one point in 11 KHL games...
how are ppl hating him? they are only pointing out that he's not even close to the once dominant player. he has a 9.5 M caphit and he scored 65 pts last season, that is terrible... if he needs certain systems and if he can't make the players around him better that 127 M contract he has signed is a big joke.

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11-05-2012, 10:13 PM
  #330
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how are ppl hating him? they are only pointing out that he's not even close to the once dominant player. he has a 9.5 M caphit and he scored 65 pts last season, that is terrible... if he needs certain systems and if he can't make the players around him better that 127 M contract he has signed is a big joke.
Exactly. You point out an objective measurement (he's digressed for the last two seasons) and people respond with histrionics. Ovy will still probably be a very good performer in the NHL but I'd have to agree that he's past his prime.

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11-05-2012, 11:19 PM
  #331
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Yes, Ovie's lost a step. Yes, he lacks creativity. And those things definitely contributed to his drop in production. But there's some context that absolutely needs to be added here, as many people have mentioned.

First of all, the scheme change. There seems to be some misunderstanding about when it came about. After the Montreal series, we did go to a slightly less "all out" offensive scheme, but we weren't yet going full-on defensive. Through 26 games, the Caps were 18-6-2. They were leading the NHL by 4 points, scoring 3.46 goals per game (which would've led the league this year), and had Ovie, Backstrom, and Semin all scoring at over a PPG pace. Then came the 8 game losing streak. Boudreau panicked, and fearing for his job, decided to take the radical step of completely overhauling the system to focus on defense, despite the fact that the team was not at all built to play that type of game. After scoring 90 goals in their first 26 games, the Caps scored 129 in the next 56 - thats 2.30 goals per game, a 34% drop. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out what that kind of drop off does to a 100 point player.

Another thing is his shooting percentage. Ovechkin is a career 12% shooter, but from the start of the 8 game losing streak (Dec 2, 2010) to Christmas of 2011, he scored 33 goals on 381 shots over the course of 86 games, a shooting percentage of 8.7% and a 31 goal pace over an 82 game season. In other words, he was seriously snake-bitten. Now, before someone says this is a symptom of his regression, I'll point out that he totally turned it around after that point. He finished the season with 27 goals on 177 shots over 45 games. That's a 15% shooting percentage and 49 goal pace. In the Dale Hunter's extreme turtle system, playing with Brooks Laich, Troy Brouwer, and Marcus Johansson, while Backstrom was out and Green was still recovering from sports hernia surgery, he stepped up his game and was probably the biggest reason we were able to gut out a playoff birth. That production is the reason I'm reasonably sure that next season, once he's reunited with Backstrom (who Hunter kept on a separate line from Ovie even once he came back) and is playing in a far more offensively oriented system, that his goal scoring will rebound.

Lastly, I just want to touch on his assist totals. Ovechkin has always been an underrated passer. You don't average 52 assists a season your first 6 seasons without some ability. Still, he needs to play with guys who can put the puck in the net in order to get assists, and for most of the year, he didn't. He had Backstrom for 38 games, but otherwise he spent the vast majority of his time with Brouwer, Johansson, and Laich, who are horribly incompetent shooters. I can't tell you how many times I watched those guys take great feeds from Ovie only fire it straight into the goalie's chest, or miss wide on an open net. Given a full season with Backstrom in a more open system, I think his assist totals will rebound too.

This season (or next season) is a 45-45 pace for Ovie, with a definite chance for 50 goals and/or 100 points. Past his peak, sure, but not past his prime.

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11-06-2012, 12:00 AM
  #332
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While I agree with the post, I have to say that Malkin simply has a better and more complete game (More suited for hockey, period).

The difference between great players and all time greats is that the latter are able to adjust their game, once their physical prime began to decline. Ovi hasn't shown that he can. So that's why he's past his prime and simply not in the conversation for best player anymore.

People mention how the KHL is a notoriously low scoring league, yet guys like Malkin, Kovalchuk and Radulov are lighting up like Christmas trees.

Even Datsyuk who's also clearly declining is at 15GP 6G 13A 19Pts.
i am not sure datsyuk is declining. you may just look at his points for '10, '11 and '12 and conclude that, but the context is very important.

datsyuk was near the top of the NHL in scoring and on pace for over 90p in both '11 and '12 before 2 of the worst injuries of his career. he broke his hand after being tripped by samuelsson in december of 2010. datsyuk was still recovering in playoffs, but was great. 15p, +10 in 11 games, and was usually the best player on the ice.

he injured his knee in a collision with toews in january of this year, but prior to that was outstanding, and, iirc, was 3rd in scoring behind malkin and giroux. i don't think datsyuk recovered from his knee injury until late in the summer. his skating was clearly well below normal after that, through the playoffs, and in WC.

1st 44 games (which includes a bad start): 49p, +20
last 26 games: 18p, +1


i don't see why 19p in 15 games in KHL is unusual.

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11-06-2012, 12:14 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Zoidberg Jesus View Post
Yes, Ovie's lost a step. Yes, he lacks creativity. And those things definitely contributed to his drop in production. But there's some context that absolutely needs to be added here, as many people have mentioned.
Can't you make a similar "context" story for any other Cap? Can't you do the same for any player on any team?

If Kessel had a proper centre he'd have scored another 15-20 goals, easily.
What about Gaborik in that suffocating Torts system?
If Crosby had played more games might James Neal have scored 50?
Could Kovalchuk not have had a zillion excuses for lack of support?

Making excuses for Ovechkin by describing all the external factors that have hindered his ability to put up points/goals just exposes him to more analysis and cross examination....and he loses every time.

What happened to taking credit for actual results? AND accepting responsibility for POOR results?
And leave the excuses at the door.

Ovechkin knows he needs to be better and believe he can be better. He's said so, his body language says so. Let's see if he can be better (if there's a season)

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11-06-2012, 12:22 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by redbull View Post
Can't you make a similar "context" story for any other Cap? Can't you do the same for any player on any team?

If Kessel had a proper centre he'd have scored another 15-20 goals, easily.
What about Gaborik in that suffocating Torts system?
If Crosby had played more games might James Neal have scored 50?
Could Kovalchuk not have had a zillion excuses for lack of support?

Making excuses for Ovechkin by describing all the external factors that have hindered his ability to put up points/goals just exposes him to more analysis and cross examination....and he loses every time.

What happened to taking credit for actual results? AND accepting responsibility for POOR results?
And leave the excuses at the door.

Ovechkin knows he needs to be better and believe he can be better. He's said so, his body language says so. Let's see if he can be better (if there's a season)
I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post on the topic.

At the end of the day, when you get paid $9.3 million a season, right here and now, it is assumed that you are either supposed to carry the franchise's offense or you are Scott Gomez/Alexei Yashin. Ovechkin is not going into the latter category. 65 points in unacceptable. Heck, one could argue that 85 points isn't good enough either at that price point, although I didn't raise that much of an eye at the time.

It is foolish to assume he'll never get back to his previous level, as I think he is capable simply based off his talent, but all things considered Ovechkin isn't working as hard off the ice as the Crosbys and Malkins of the world while his on-ice game has not displayed additional layers, and his play and production showed this in the past season. A tighter defensive system would have explained everything if he had another 85 points season with extra care in his defensive game. 65 points, that's too low for the argument to hold water.

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11-06-2012, 12:34 AM
  #335
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how are ppl hating him? they are only pointing out that he's not even close to the once dominant player. he has a 9.5 M caphit and he scored 65 pts last season, that is terrible... if he needs certain systems and if he can't make the players around him better that 127 M contract he has signed is a big joke.
Pretty easy to criticize Ovechkin for not responding well to a change in system (Boudreau tried to turn the team from run-and-gun to Hithcockian) when contemporary talents (Crosby, Malkin) have never had the same test (the transition from Therrien to Bylsma wasn't nearly as drastic).

Overall, yeah, Ovechkin's play has dropped off. It's coincided with turmoil that's permeated the roster, coaching staff, and system. He's still a damned good player and has the potential to return to generational status. Has he recently been worth a $9.5M cap hit? Hell no. You could ask a similar question about most other Caps and get a similar answer.

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11-06-2012, 01:52 AM
  #336
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people saying OVs doesnt produce because he didnt adjust and change his game are crazy. do you really think it took the league 5 years to adjust to OVs game? he has constantly changed over his entire career, just like all other star players.

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11-06-2012, 02:07 AM
  #337
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It's not fair to accuse Ovi, not mentioning others.
What happened with Evander Kane, Pavelski, Rinne, Bryzg?
Why don't they light up the KHL too? Are they past their prime?

Concerning Ovi, he plays in Dinamo Moscow. The style of the game of Dinamo never depended on one player, as it was in Washington several years ago. The team was always positioned as a team without stars and it's game is built on four equal lines. Until recently it was a low-budget team. Ovi is a first star of the team in years. There was a doubt that Dinamo would sign him. Ovi couldn't be more good in such a team.
Don't overestimate the player's abilities without taking into account the team in which he plays.


Last edited by od71: 11-06-2012 at 06:15 AM.
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11-06-2012, 06:05 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i am not sure datsyuk is declining. you may just look at his points for '10, '11 and '12 and conclude that, but the context is very important.

datsyuk was near the top of the NHL in scoring and on pace for over 90p in both '11 and '12 before 2 of the worst injuries of his career. he broke his hand after being tripped by samuelsson in december of 2010. datsyuk was still recovering in playoffs, but was great. 15p, +10 in 11 games, and was usually the best player on the ice.

he injured his knee in a collision with toews in january of this year, but prior to that was outstanding, and, iirc, was 3rd in scoring behind malkin and giroux. i don't think datsyuk recovered from his knee injury until late in the summer. his skating was clearly well below normal after that, through the playoffs, and in WC.

1st 44 games (which includes a bad start): 49p, +20
last 26 games: 18p, +1


i don't see why 19p in 15 games in KHL is unusual.
This. Datsyuk is one of those players that can play until he is 40+ in the NHL and still produce at a high level (PPG). The only thing he really lost is speed, but it's never been his strong suit anyways. He can slow the game down to his level and make any player look terrible at any time, because his vision, dangling, and hockey sense are extremely high.

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11-06-2012, 09:57 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Endersoldier View Post
I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite post on the topic.

At the end of the day, when you get paid $9.3 million a season, right here and now, it is assumed that you are either supposed to carry the franchise's offense or you are Scott Gomez/Alexei Yashin. Ovechkin is not going into the latter category. 65 points in unacceptable. Heck, one could argue that 85 points isn't good enough either at that price point, although I didn't raise that much of an eye at the time.

It is foolish to assume he'll never get back to his previous level, as I think he is capable simply based off his talent, but all things considered Ovechkin isn't working as hard off the ice as the Crosbys and Malkins of the world while his on-ice game has not displayed additional layers, and his play and production showed this in the past season. A tighter defensive system would have explained everything if he had another 85 points season with extra care in his defensive game. 65 points, that's too low for the argument to hold water.
It's not Ovechkin's fault his line mates Troy Brouwer and Marcus Johansen couldn't put put pucks into open nets. Ovechkin created a ton of chances for them. That's the only difference between his 85 point campaign and his 65 point campaign.

37 goals. Yeah, a real Yashin.

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11-06-2012, 11:08 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by nik jr View Post
i am not sure datsyuk is declining. you may just look at his points for '10, '11 and '12 and conclude that, but the context is very important.

datsyuk was near the top of the NHL in scoring and on pace for over 90p in both '11 and '12 before 2 of the worst injuries of his career. he broke his hand after being tripped by samuelsson in december of 2010. datsyuk was still recovering in playoffs, but was great. 15p, +10 in 11 games, and was usually the best player on the ice.

he injured his knee in a collision with toews in january of this year, but prior to that was outstanding, and, iirc, was 3rd in scoring behind malkin and giroux. i don't think datsyuk recovered from his knee injury until late in the summer. his skating was clearly well below normal after that, through the playoffs, and in WC.

1st 44 games (which includes a bad start): 49p, +20
last 26 games: 18p, +1


i don't see why 19p in 15 games in KHL is unusual.
When the stats show he is declining, and when said player is 34 years old, the smart thing is probably to admit that he is declining. Realize forwards usually peak at about 25 years of age.

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11-06-2012, 11:32 AM
  #341
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It's not Ovechkin's fault his line mates Troy Brouwer and Marcus Johansen couldn't put put pucks into open nets. Ovechkin created a ton of chances for them. That's the only difference between his 85 point campaign and his 65 point campaign.

37 goals. Yeah, a real Yashin.
Nice reading comprehension.

Crosby's been making a living playing with players who miss the net. Up to last year, the same would be said about Malkin.

65 points is not good enough at 9.3m no matter the conditions. Ovechkin would be the first to tell you that. If he dedicates himself more off the ice and gets to PPG, and then his off-ice value will make up for the rest.

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11-06-2012, 11:37 AM
  #342
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Ovechkin did carry his team's offense. A team that played a mind-numbingly stupid system without its only top 6 Center for most of the year that had a terrible Powerplay and limited power play opportunities. Why do you care what his salary is exactly?

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11-06-2012, 12:00 PM
  #343
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Ovechkin did carry his team's offense. A team that played a mind-numbingly stupid system without its only top 6 Center for most of the year that had a terrible Powerplay and limited power play opportunities. Why do you care what his salary is exactly?
Because in a salary cap world, it kind of has a bit of an impact.....

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11-06-2012, 12:02 PM
  #344
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Ovi's fine. He's leading his KHL team in points with 14 in 14 games. He may never score 60 goals in the NHL again, but that doesn't mean he's past his prime... it was a pace that would have been impossible to keep up.

As a player, Ovi is in his prime right now and is still an elite player. Whenever the NHL restarts, he'll be back to playing at an over a PPG pace like in 2010-2011 or like in 2006-2007

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11-06-2012, 02:08 PM
  #345
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Ovechkin did carry his team's offense. A team that played a mind-numbingly stupid system without its only top 6 Center for most of the year that had a terrible Powerplay and limited power play opportunities. Why do you care what his salary is exactly?
Considering he eats up more of his team's cap space than anyone in the league, it matters.

Ovechkin put up 52 goals in 2005-06. He put up 92 points in 06-07 and helped Chris Clark get 30 goals. He did this with a mess of a franchise at the time. He can do better than last year, that's all I'm saying. Defensive system or not, it was clear to me that he wasn't playing as well as years past.

I think he can get back to the PPG-90 point area. He's too talented to say otherwise. But I'm sorry if I'm calling him out for a poor season. I expect more because I know he can do more.

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11-06-2012, 02:34 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by Endersoldier View Post
Considering he eats up more of his team's cap space than anyone in the league, it matters.

Ovechkin put up 52 goals in 2005-06. He put up 92 points in 06-07 and helped Chris Clark get 30 goals. He did this with a mess of a franchise at the time. He can do better than last year, that's all I'm saying. Defensive system or not, it was clear to me that he wasn't playing as well as years past.

I think he can get back to the PPG-90 point area. He's too talented to say otherwise. But I'm sorry if I'm calling him out for a poor season. I expect more because I know he can do more.
05-06 and 06-07 had ridiculously high amounts of power plays league wide. Practically every team had at least one guy who was PPG.

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11-06-2012, 06:24 PM
  #347
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Yes, Ovie's lost a step. Yes, he lacks creativity. And those things definitely contributed to his drop in production. But there's some context that absolutely needs to be added here, as many people have mentioned.

First of all, the scheme change. There seems to be some misunderstanding about when it came about. After the Montreal series, we did go to a slightly less "all out" offensive scheme, but we weren't yet going full-on defensive. Through 26 games, the Caps were 18-6-2. They were leading the NHL by 4 points, scoring 3.46 goals per game (which would've led the league this year), and had Ovie, Backstrom, and Semin all scoring at over a PPG pace. Then came the 8 game losing streak. Boudreau panicked, and fearing for his job, decided to take the radical step of completely overhauling the system to focus on defense, despite the fact that the team was not at all built to play that type of game. After scoring 90 goals in their first 26 games, the Caps scored 129 in the next 56 - thats 2.30 goals per game, a 34% drop. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out what that kind of drop off does to a 100 point player.

Another thing is his shooting percentage. Ovechkin is a career 12% shooter, but from the start of the 8 game losing streak (Dec 2, 2010) to Christmas of 2011, he scored 33 goals on 381 shots over the course of 86 games, a shooting percentage of 8.7% and a 31 goal pace over an 82 game season. In other words, he was seriously snake-bitten. Now, before someone says this is a symptom of his regression, I'll point out that he totally turned it around after that point. He finished the season with 27 goals on 177 shots over 45 games. That's a 15% shooting percentage and 49 goal pace. In the Dale Hunter's extreme turtle system, playing with Brooks Laich, Troy Brouwer, and Marcus Johansson, while Backstrom was out and Green was still recovering from sports hernia surgery, he stepped up his game and was probably the biggest reason we were able to gut out a playoff birth. That production is the reason I'm reasonably sure that next season, once he's reunited with Backstrom (who Hunter kept on a separate line from Ovie even once he came back) and is playing in a far more offensively oriented system, that his goal scoring will rebound.

Lastly, I just want to touch on his assist totals. Ovechkin has always been an underrated passer. You don't average 52 assists a season your first 6 seasons without some ability. Still, he needs to play with guys who can put the puck in the net in order to get assists, and for most of the year, he didn't. He had Backstrom for 38 games, but otherwise he spent the vast majority of his time with Brouwer, Johansson, and Laich, who are horribly incompetent shooters. I can't tell you how many times I watched those guys take great feeds from Ovie only fire it straight into the goalie's chest, or miss wide on an open net. Given a full season with Backstrom in a more open system, I think his assist totals will rebound too.

This season (or next season) is a 45-45 pace for Ovie, with a definite chance for 50 goals and/or 100 points. Past his peak, sure, but not past his prime.
The funny thing is Ovechkin put up 106 and 92 Pts respectively in his first 2 seasons when he had absolutely no offensive help.

He starts to regress offensively and people want to use the excuse that his linemates were hurt?

Truly great players can put up the numbers regardless of who their linemates are.

If Ovechkin can't do that then he's honestly not worthy of being considered elite. He simply becomes a player who is a product of elite teammates/ linemates and an offensive system that allows him to just score and not bother to forecheck.

I personally don't think that it's the linemate thing that has hindered Ovechkin over the last 2 seasons.

As for your assist argument, when you shoot 400+ times a year on average, you're bound to create a few rebounds that your teammates will pot in. I'd be interested to see how many of those 52 assists a year were actual passes and not rebounds.

Bure had a few 40 + assists seasons in his prime to go along with his goals, did that make him a good passer? Ovechkin also played on a powerplay that was ridiculously stacked offensively. If he didn't average 52 assists playing with Semin, Backstrom, Green and company then I think something would have been wrong.

Give Malkin that kind of support for instance and he would have averaged 80 assists.

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11-06-2012, 08:09 PM
  #348
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The funny thing is Ovechkin put up 106 and 92 Pts respectively in his first 2 seasons when he had absolutely no offensive help.

He starts to regress offensively and people want to use the excuse that his linemates were hurt?

Truly great players can put up the numbers regardless of who their linemates are.

If Ovechkin can't do that then he's honestly not worthy of being considered elite. He simply becomes a player who is a product of elite teammates/ linemates and an offensive system that allows him to just score and not bother to forecheck.

I personally don't think that it's the linemate thing that has hindered Ovechkin over the last 2 seasons.

As for your assist argument, when you shoot 400+ times a year on average, you're bound to create a few rebounds that your teammates will pot in. I'd be interested to see how many of those 52 assists a year were actual passes and not rebounds.

Bure had a few 40 + assists seasons in his prime to go along with his goals, did that make him a good passer? Ovechkin also played on a powerplay that was ridiculously stacked offensively. If he didn't average 52 assists playing with Semin, Backstrom, Green and company then I think something would have been wrong.

Give Malkin that kind of support for instance and he would have averaged 80 assists.
I love how you bash ovechkin, but completely ignore that the team goals per game average dropped over 1.15 goals. That's not ovechkin's fault. If there's that drastic of a change in scoring there's something wrong with the coaching/system.

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11-06-2012, 08:59 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Pravi83Oil View Post
To be honest, I think OV's drop in production came as soon as the team changed its philosophy. Going from an all out offensive juggernaut to a defensive stalwart was a dumb idea, you should work with your strengths.

Not sure what system Oates will play, but if its anything like the old Boudreau system, then I'm sure we will see the old OV back. Highly doubt he will be up to 65 goal form (he set his bar incredibly high there), but 50g, 100pt seasons arent out of question yet.
I don't disagree with this. It would be like the mighty Oilers of the 80s hiring Jacques Lemaire and practicing a defensive system. Gretzky's numbers would have dropped in a significant manner.

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11-06-2012, 09:21 PM
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Philly85
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I actually agree with that comment re: change of philosophies being more of a detriment than benefit to him and the team. They had to wait a couple years for their D to mature and develop... Lord knows they had the goaltending, so that wasn't hindering them... I think they could've turned out to be like the Chicago Blackhawks had they stayed the course and "played to their strengths". Maybe not quite as dominant but they had/have better goaltending than CHI and great depth on their roster offensively. I mean, they did at one point.

I don't think such a dramatic shift was necessary (not denying Hunter was a great coach either), more just patience and tweaks in the roster and systems play. But what do I know.

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