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The All Purpose Lu Thread (MOD WARNING IN OP)

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Old
11-06-2012, 09:40 AM
  #326
Bleach Clean
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PavelBure10 View Post
I'd seriously be happy getting Colborne, Franson and a pick for Luongo.

Gillis gets a large prospect centerman in Colborne, who would be a very nice project that may or may not step into the lineup right away. Could maybe center the 3rd line right away.

Franson is a large right handed defenseman with some decent potential. With Bieksa and Tanev being the only right handed defensemen on the squad it would be nice to get another righty in the lineup. One that has'nt hit his offensive ceiling yet. Gillis missed out on Franson the first time around, I don't want to see it happen again.

Canucks defensemen

Hamhuis Bieksa
Edler Franson
Garrison Tanev

The Canucks get a lot bigger and younger after the trade. Both Colborne and Franson are 6'5, with a lot of potential. The Canucks fill 2 of their holes, while Toronto fills their need in net without giving up anything too crazy.



I actually prefer the smaller Kadri to Colborne. At least with NK, you have a better AHL track record to follow for projection. Colborne hasn't quite done that himself. It doesn't matter to me that Kadri is smaller either, because he plays with more jam than JC does.



And no to Franson. If there is one trait Gillis covets in a Dman, it's his skating ability. Franson is not fast enough to offer good 2way play in this system. I'd rather try my luck on Holzer or another right-shot RD from the leafs (not Komisarek).

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11-06-2012, 09:50 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Here is were things get a little sketchy. Luongo is a very good goalie, but last years stats do not make him "elite". Now, if he were younger we could say it was an off year for him based on his previous years, but he is 33. Some may worry that it is the beginning of his decline.


If Leafs management take any of his recent stats and determine him not to be elite, they shouldn't do a deal at all. No lowball. No offer period. It's all or nothing. Either they value his track record over _years_ and determine him to be elite, and pay the price accordingly, or they don't pay _anything_ and run with Reimer.



No half measures. Because it seems clear that Gillis views him as elite (handed him that contract and didn't deal him for peanuts). Also, it seems there is interest from TO, for that 33 year old "non-elite" goaltender on a long-term contract. Do you think that interest occurs if they didn't view him as a high calibre goaltender? Nope. So there's a lot to suggest that TO management views him as elite even if the fans may see it as "sketchy".

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11-06-2012, 09:55 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
If Leafs management take any of his recent stats and determine him not to be elite, they shouldn't do a deal at all. No lowball. No offer period. It's all or nothing. Either they value his track record over _years_ and determine him to be elite, and pay the price accordingly, or they don't pay _anything_ and run with Reimer.



No half measures. Because it seems clear that Gillis views him as elite (handed him that contract and didn't deal him for peanuts). Also, it seems there is interest from TO, for that 33 year old "non-elite" goaltender on a long-term contract. Do you think that interest occurs if they didn't view him as a high calibre goaltender? Nope. So there's a lot to suggest that TO management views him as elite even if the fans may see it as "sketchy".
I believe Burke views Luongo as a considerable upgrade to what we have (elite or not) and that is why he is interested, his interest decreased largely when Gillis presented his asking price. I think Burke will remain interested if he thinks he can get "his" deal.

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11-06-2012, 10:03 AM
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reign Nateo View Post
^Here we go again, fans speaking for their GMs in the Luongo thread....
Well no I'm not speaking directly for Tallon but then again, I do work for the owner of the Panthers (but not for the Panthers) so I think I would know a little more about what they are willing to do than the average person on here would.

Separately, Tallon has said numerous times that he's not going to give up prospects for quick fixes so why wouldnt fans be able to repeat that statement in regards to a Luongo trade?? Has Tallon shown anything but that he's willing to keep his prospects and let them develop until he has a consistent contender with the Panthers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It doesn't matter to me if Fla fans think it's likely, I'm only saying that if a deal were to happen, he'd make a lot of sense to be included. He fills a glaring need in our prospect pool(tough defenseman with a RH shot), and is at a position of depth for Florida. However, I don't think Luongo ends up in Florida anyways, even though I don't think Tallon would make 5 of his prospects untouchable for Luongo.
Why would Fla fans care if that would fill a glaring hole in YOUR prospect pool though? Are the Panthers suppose to care about that aspect at all? I dont think so. It also fills a need in our depth chart as well so it makes no sense from a FL standpoint to include him (4 current d-men are over 33 yrs old, Gudbranson & Weaver are only RHers and Weaver is nearing the end of his career). And because of those 4 d-men over 33 (Kuba, Jovo, Weaver & Campbell), the position of depth that you perceive is not as deep as you think. Tallon thinks extermely high of Petrovic and since he was drafted by Tallon, I think you see him kept in the org longer than a non-Tallon player, particularly on defense (which is why I offered up Robak as an alternative).

FL can come up with a package that would be fair but I dont see them giving up one of their top 5 prospects BASED ON WHAT GM DALE TALLON HAS CONTINUALLY SAID SINCE BECOMING GM (and his actions have shown the same). I had to emphasize that because it seems to be missed a lot and whenever a Panther fan states this, its like we're speaking at a wall. If you're looking for a few young players, prospects and a pick, its doable from the Panthers but not without some salary needing to be absorbed by the Canucks (either via the suggested provision in the CBA or via taking salary back in the form of a player). I dont think its a possibility anymore for the Panthers to be involved in Luongo unless its next offseason and the cost to acquire him is even lower than it is now.

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Old
11-06-2012, 10:12 AM
  #330
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Florida only has to care if they want Luongo. If their interest in Luongo is so miniscule that even prospects like Petrovic are off limits, then I highly doubt Gillis even bothers keeping in touch. All I'm saying is that if Luongo goes to Florida, Petrovic would probably be involved. If even that's too much to give from Tallon's view, then he won't go to Florida.

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11-06-2012, 10:18 AM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Well no I'm not speaking directly for Tallon but then again, I do work for the owner of the Panthers (but not for the Panthers) so I think I would know a little more about what they are willing to do than the average person on here would.

Separately, Tallon has said numerous times that he's not going to give up prospects for quick fixes so why wouldnt fans be able to repeat that statement in regards to a Luongo trade?? Has Tallon shown anything but that he's willing to keep his prospects and let them develop until he has a consistent contender with the Panthers?
Why would Fla fans care if that would fill a glaring hole in YOUR prospect pool though? Are the Panthers suppose to care about that aspect at all? I dont think so. It also fills a need in our depth chart as well so it makes no sense from a FL standpoint to include him (4 current d-men are over 33 yrs old, Gudbranson & Weaver are only RHers and Weaver is nearing the end of his career). And because of those 4 d-men over 33 (Kuba, Jovo, Weaver & Campbell), the position of depth that you perceive is not as deep as you think. Tallon thinks extermely high of Petrovic and since he was drafted by Tallon, I think you see him kept in the org longer than a non-Tallon player, particularly on defense (which is why I offered up Robak as an alternative).

FL can come up with a package that would be fair but I dont see them giving up one of their top 5 prospects BASED ON WHAT GM DALE TALLON HAS CONTINUALLY SAID SINCE BECOMING GM (and his actions have shown the same). I had to emphasize that because it seems to be missed a lot and whenever a Panther fan states this, its like we're speaking at a wall. If you're looking for a few young players, prospects and a pick, its doable from the Panthers but not without some salary needing to be absorbed by the Canucks (either via the suggested provision in the CBA or via taking salary back in the form of a player). I dont think its a possibility anymore for the Panthers to be involved in Luongo unless its next offseason and the cost to acquire him is even lower than it is now.
I tend to discount what GM's say based on my experience following hockey. I would interpret Tallon's statement as meaning that he is not going to give up a top prospect for a short term fix. However, obviously if he can get a 'quick fix' that makes the team better for a significant period of time then he would likely be interested. In other words, it all depends on the asset being acquired and what he has to give up to get it. I doubt that he would rule out all deals that make his team better or he would not be doing his job.

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Old
11-06-2012, 10:23 AM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
I believe Burke views Luongo as a considerable upgrade to what we have (elite or not) and that is why he is interested, his interest decreased largely when Gillis presented his asking price. I think Burke will remain interested if he thinks he can get "his" deal.

"His" deal only exists in Burke's fantasy. That's the truth of it. Gillis is the last person that is going to do Burke any favours. Burke knows this too. Yet he's still interested...


If you take that original demand in consideration, Gillis would have to move off both the 1st and Gardiner for Burke to get "his" deal. Is that grounded in reality? Will Gillis move that far off his demand for Burke/Nonis/TO? No. Why would he? He'd sooner take scraps from FLA -- At least Lu goes where he wants.


No, for Burke to get Lu, he will have to pay something of value to VAN. It's up to him. There will be no discount. Put another way, Lu has little to no chance of going to TO on a deal Burke has structured. Gillis will construct it, but Burke will be able to save Gardiner IMO. Everything else (save the core pieces) is on the table or Burke goes into the season with Reimer.


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 11-06-2012 at 10:37 AM.
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Old
11-06-2012, 10:52 AM
  #333
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I just hope our management isn't high on Colborne. He seems to be exactly what they have been targeting lately, except for the fact that he's almost 23 now and can't produce in the pros, last October excluded. In basketball the word 'motor' gets thrown around a lot when describing players. Colborne is never going to be mistaken for a guy with a high motor.

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11-06-2012, 10:58 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
"His" deal only exists in Burke's fantasy. That's the truth of it. Gillis is the last person that is going to do Burke any favours. Burke knows this too. Yet he's still interested...


If you take that original demand in consideration, Gillis would have to move off both the 1st and Gardiner for Burke to get "his" deal. Is that grounded in reality? Will Gillis move that far off his demand for Burke/Nonis/TO? No. Why would he? He'd sooner take scraps from FLA -- At least Lu goes where he wants.


No, for Burke to get Lu, he will have to pay something of value to VAN. It's up to him. There will be no discount. Put another way, Lu has little to no chance of going to TO on a deal Burke has structured. Gillis will construct it, but Burke will be able to save Gardiner IMO. Everything else (save the core pieces) is on the table or Burke goes into the season with Reimer.
And i truely believe, that if there is a season, this is what will happen.

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11-06-2012, 11:22 AM
  #335
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There are many VAN fans around here that likely will be sorely disappointed once this all ends. Yes, Luongo is still a top-10 goalie. Without a doubt, IMO. That does not mean you will get a player of similar quality back, trades rarely work that way. There are many other factors at play here, and each one of them reduces the expected return on a Luo trade.

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11-06-2012, 11:57 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
There are many VAN fans around here that likely will be sorely disappointed once this all ends. Yes, Luongo is still a top-10 goalie. Without a doubt, IMO. That does not mean you will get a player of similar quality back, trades rarely work that way. There are many other factors at play here, and each one of them reduces the expected return on a Luo trade.

No one expects Kessel back in a trade for Luo. What we do expect and what is reasonable to expect is pieces of value. Sorry but McArthur, Lombardi and Kadri will not be getting TO anything of value from us.

Kulemin - Middle six winger
Frattin - Bottom six winger with potential
Colbourne - B prospect
Blacker - RH B Dman prospect


Something like that would be more than fair for TO

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11-06-2012, 12:25 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Here is were things get a little sketchy. Luongo is a very good goalie, but last years stats do not make him "elite".
Good thing your team has scouts and video or you'd miss out on a lot of players just looking at stats. Luongo made significant changes to his game after a poor 2010 season that have paid big dividends. They are also the kind of changes that are going to allow him to stay good as he gets older and loses some athleticism. Lu's numbers might not look elite but his play does.

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11-06-2012, 12:29 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Seatoo View Post
No one expects Kessel back in a trade for Luo. What we do expect and what is reasonable to expect is pieces of value. Sorry but McArthur, Lombardi and Kadri will not be getting TO anything of value from us.

Kulemin - Middle six winger
Frattin - Bottom six winger with potential
Colbourne - B prospect
Blacker - RH B Dman prospect


Something like that would be more than fair for TO
If we're going with Toronto, this is likely what the return will come to look like.

However, I am still of the frame of mind that there are other teams that will be interested when the season begins that can offer something better tailored to what we need. Also, in the event that this is the best offer on the table, I'd want to wait a ways into the season to make sure that there won't be any massive injuries to our other goalies right away, and probably push this as far into the season as I could. I'd rather squeeze a few extra games out of Lu before trading him primarily for futures.

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11-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
There are many VAN fans around here that likely will be sorely disappointed once this all ends. Yes, Luongo is still a top-10 goalie. Without a doubt, IMO. That does not mean you will get a player of similar quality back, trades rarely work that way. There are many other factors at play here, and each one of them reduces the expected return on a Luo trade.
How original! Maybe other fans shouldn't be telling other fans how they will react. I don't see how that is useful

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11-06-2012, 12:37 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
I just hope our management isn't high on Colborne. He seems to be exactly what they have been targeting lately, except for the fact that he's almost 23 now and can't produce in the pros, last October excluded. In basketball the word 'motor' gets thrown around a lot when describing players. Colborne is never going to be mistaken for a guy with a high motor.
To be fair Colborne was struggling with wrist injuries last year. He seems very high-risk medium-to-high return.

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11-06-2012, 12:41 PM
  #341
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VAN-TOR (Luongo)

Yep another one of those

To Toronto:
Roberto Luongo
Kellan Tochkin (contract throw in)

To Vancouver:
Joe Colborne
Matt Finn
Conditional 1st round pick

Condition on Leafs making the playoffs. If they don't in the 1st season (or the lockout wipes the season) then the pick is referred to next year.

Reason Toronto does this: Burke has criticized his goalies a lot... Reimer is a question mark and Scrivens is an even bigger question mark now with how he has put on his best Vesa Toskala impersonation for the baby Leafs (albeit a small sample size). An elite (once again, albeit this one is aging) goalie is needed if this team ever wants to make the playoffs any time soon which Burke does or else he will lose his job.

Reason Vancouver does this: They get a center back who can battle Schroeder for 2nd line duties while Kes is out and then move down to the 3rd line. We either get a decent somewhat proven center to compete with Schroeder or another prospect (with a lot of size) who had a very good outing in his one stint in the NHL. We also get a good d-man prospect back which Vancouver needs most in the prospect pool. Also could get another mid 1st which never hurt. Package the pick with some prospects for a big trade deadline pick up, and we' still have a 1st that season to draft with

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11-06-2012, 12:42 PM
  #342
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Absolutely unequivocally no from a Leaf fan. Holy

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11-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
So you are suggesting Luongo and Raymond (why on earth would Edmonton want another small winger?) are worth three first round draft picks?

All of whom are top ten picks, to swallow what is one of the worst contracts in the entire league and a player the Vancouver fan base has wanted out of town (Raymond) and has included in 90% of all their trade proposals?

To top it all off, you are asking Edmonton to get rid of Gagner, who while not that valuable to most teams, is one of exactly two players who are capable of playing center in the top six in the entire organization.

This proposal is definitely, positively awful.
Draft position only has baring in your mind. Gagner and MPS, and at least MPS if you want to argue about Gagner, aren't worth a first, that's where they were drafted. Would you consider Schroeder a 1st round pick? Or what about Patrick White?

And the easiest way to lose an argument is to overstate it, if it's one of the worst contracts in the league, that would mean Luongo will be less then a back up on what ever team he goes too, has one the the highest cap hits for his position on any team, and there is no hope for him to improve. The length is the only negative, and even that may be moot with the latest CBA proposals from both sides.

Edmonton's inability to attract a center to replace Horcoff (who I'd argue has had a much worse contract then Luongo btw...) isn't a concern of ours. We need a 2/3 center, and that's one of the constant parts of the asking price, from any team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabeliscious View Post
i think you need to consider the teams that you are including the 1st from. a 1st round pick from the leafs and edmonton is disproportionately high. i cant see either team moving them.

also, both toronto and edmonto are pretty weak at center. for toronto to trade bozak or edmonton to trade gagner is a big deal. its not that either player is necessarily untouchable, its just both teams really dont have any one to replace them.


if gillis would include edler in a trade i would obviously consider parting with something more substantial from torontos stand point.

where do you think gillis values edler at? liles/ gunnarson + kulemin + 2nd rounder?
That first will be coming way down in value, likely to middle of the pack, with Luongo on your respective teams.

I agree about the bit about the centers, that's what I keep saying, but fans from Toronto insist its a forgone conclusion.

Edler in the trade with Luongo will cost you more then you want to pay. A 2nd pairing defenseman, a 2nd line player and a 2nd isn't enough to attract our attention, especially if that's kind of what's being offered for Luongo. Adding Edler too a deal would be to land a much, much bigger piece to the deal, or two still big pieces. If you want the truth, if Toronto wants both, I'd be asking Kessel+ or JVR+Phaneuf as a base. It's probably better we get that idea out of our heads.

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11-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #344
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You know there is a million page Luongo thread, right?

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11-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #345
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Meh. I wouldn't be happy, but the value is decent. At least we might be able to flip some of these futures for help at the deadline if needed.

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11-06-2012, 12:48 PM
  #346
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Absolutely unequivocally no from a Leaf fan. Holy
so lets see here...
are the leafs giving up a roster player? no
are the leafs giving up a top 3 prospect? no
are the leafs giving up a 1st? yes but it could end up being 2 years from now.

so what exactly are the leafs giving up thats more important than a top goalie (their biggest need mind you) that their getting that makes this an absolute no? You do know you have to give to get right and in this case the main asset the Leafs give up may be 2 years from now.

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11-06-2012, 12:49 PM
  #347
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Meh. I wouldn't be happy, but the value is decent. At least we might be able to flip some of these futures for help at the deadline if needed.
This is about the cheapest I can think of the Leafs acquiring Luongo.
We see nothing that will contribute this year, but I do Agree with you that we could probably flip some of this for trade deadline acquisitions

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11-06-2012, 12:51 PM
  #348
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I am a bit confuse since my English is bad, what is the meaning of "the all purpose Lu thread" ?

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11-06-2012, 12:53 PM
  #349
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This is about the cheapest I can think of the Leafs acquiring Luongo.
We see nothing that will contribute this year, but I do Agree with you that we could probably flip some of this for trade deadline acquisitions
yea the whole point is to fill the cupboards to be able to package out our 1st and Mason Raymond and some prospects for a good deadline pick up. We gain cap space to be able to do something like this as well which we can use to re-sign our own up-coming UFA's and/or re-signing our deadline pick-up

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11-06-2012, 12:57 PM
  #350
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no thanks

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