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Phoenix LXIV: Will You Still Need Me, Will You Still Read Me, on Thread LXIV?

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Old
11-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #26
Evil Doctor
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If the team moves, yes, it probably would have been better for Glendale to take the money.

But that's besides the point. Balsillie would have been a terrible owner, and given his current financial situation, quite possibly an owner who wouldn't be able to afford to maintain a team regardless.


Are we back to this nonsense again?

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11-06-2012, 03:04 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
The trolling is particularly distasteful in my opinion.

As a Canucks fan, we have things good. But we didn't always. Just over a decade ago, one Brian Burke was threatening to move the franchise. It was a disgusting feeling.

And that is only minor to what Coyotes fans have gone through over the last few years.

I get that fans in certain markets are desperate for hockey. And I think they deserve hockey.

But Phoenix fans deserve hockey as well. Perhaps the economics just won't work out. But, at the end of the day, it's our love of hockey that brings us together. It doesn't matter where you live or what your background is. Belittling another fan because they're different is low. It's unseemly. It's wrong.

And it shouldn't be reduced to a zero sum game. If the Coyotes don't survive in the Phoenix market, then I hope there is access to quality hockey there when they leave. Personally, I think it would be fantastic to have a Canucks farm team there. From what we've heard, the players think that there should be hockey in Phoenix. They enjoy playing there and think it's a great city.

You would think that fans in markets that have lost hockey would be more empathetic. As a hockey fan, if you aren't, then there is something wrong with you. Because even if the franchise does move to your market, you can't separate the fact that the players have history there. And you can hope that the management team and coaching staff comes with them, because they've proven to be among the best in the business. They deserve credit for what they've achieved.
I live in an area that wants to gain an NHL franchise. That being said, I've never been comfortable with the idea of cocking one's leg on the grave of another fan base. I was appalled when I heard the rumours about the Oilers relocating to Seattle. I thought it sickening. Same with the Islanders rumours. Maybe a franchise isn't economically viable in it's current location and needs to move.....but that's no reason for anyone to gleefully rub that team's fans' collective faces in it.

Sure, the Coyotes could be relocated to Seattle and I'd be overjoyed to have a team; but even then I'd still have sympathy for the fans in Phoenix who lost them and wouldn't dream of gloating at them.


Last edited by SaintPatrick33: 11-06-2012 at 03:38 PM.
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Old
11-06-2012, 03:07 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I live in an area that wants to gain an NHL franchise. That being said, I've never been comfortable with the idea of cocking one's leg on the grave of another fan base. I was appalled when I heard the rumours about the Oilers relocating to Seattle. I thought it sickening. Same with the Islanders rumours. Maybe a franchise isn't economically viable in it's current location and needs to move.....but that's no reason for anyone to gleeing rub that team's fans' faces in it.

Sure, the Coyotes could be relocated to Seattle and I'd be overjoyed to have a team; but even then I'd still have sympathy for the fans in Phoenix who lost them and wouldn't dream of gloating at them.
Not the fans no matter if they 1,000,000 or 100 in number. I would have no problem criticizing the players involved though like Clark, Beasley, the NHL, and many others.

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Old
11-06-2012, 03:17 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
The trolling is particularly distasteful in my opinion.

As a Canucks fan, we have things good. But we didn't always. Just over a decade ago, one Brian Burke was threatening to move the franchise. It was a disgusting feeling.

And that is only minor to what Coyotes fans have gone through over the last few years.

I get that fans in certain markets are desperate for hockey. And I think they deserve hockey.

But Phoenix fans deserve hockey as well. Perhaps the economics just won't work out. But, at the end of the day, it's our love of hockey that brings us together. It doesn't matter where you live or what your background is. Belittling another fan because they're different is low. It's unseemly. It's wrong.

And it shouldn't be reduced to a zero sum game. If the Coyotes don't survive in the Phoenix market, then I hope there is access to quality hockey there when they leave. Personally, I think it would be fantastic to have a Canucks farm team there. From what we've heard, the players think that there should be hockey in Phoenix. They enjoy playing there and think it's a great city.

You would think that fans in markets that have lost hockey would be more empathetic. As a hockey fan, if you aren't, then there is something wrong with you. Because even if the franchise does move to your market, you can't separate the fact that the players have history there. And you can hope that the management team and coaching staff comes with them, because they've proven to be among the best in the business. They deserve credit for what they've achieved.
Co-signed.

We can be happy to have NHL hockey in <insert city> and still show some compassion and camaraderie toward those who are losing their team. Hockey fans as a whole are in this thing together.

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Old
11-06-2012, 04:23 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
The trolling is particularly distasteful in my opinion.

As a Canucks fan, we have things good. But we didn't always. Just over a decade ago, one Brian Burke was threatening to move the franchise. It was a disgusting feeling.

And that is only minor to what Coyotes fans have gone through over the last few years.

I get that fans in certain markets are desperate for hockey. And I think they deserve hockey.

But Phoenix fans deserve hockey as well. Perhaps the economics just won't work out. But, at the end of the day, it's our love of hockey that brings us together. It doesn't matter where you live or what your background is. Belittling another fan because they're different is low. It's unseemly. It's wrong.

And it shouldn't be reduced to a zero sum game. If the Coyotes don't survive in the Phoenix market, then I hope there is access to quality hockey there when they leave. Personally, I think it would be fantastic to have a Canucks farm team there. From what we've heard, the players think that there should be hockey in Phoenix. They enjoy playing there and think it's a great city.

You would think that fans in markets that have lost hockey would be more empathetic. As a hockey fan, if you aren't, then there is something wrong with you. Because even if the franchise does move to your market, you can't separate the fact that the players have history there. And you can hope that the management team and coaching staff comes with them, because they've proven to be among the best in the business. They deserve credit for what they've achieved.
Excellent post. As an Islanders fan, I have had a complete knot in my stomach since the year 2008. I rarely miss a home game, and the team I love was in very real danger of leaving for good. Every time I watched or attended a game, relocation, losing the team I love, them eventually turning things around in another city was always in the back of my mind. It was an AWFUL feeling. The team you love, that you grew up with, that became your second home every winter, just skipping town and leaving. Disgusting feeling sums it up perfectly.

And even that is just a fraction of what Coyotes fans are feeling. To see fans from cities that a) went through that very same feeling, and b) actually had it culminate in the loss of their team, try and will the Coyotes out of their home is mind boggling. The Islanders situation scarred me to the point where I'll be upset to see any franchise in any sport move because I know how some people will be affected, and the Islanders didn't even wind up moving.

I know Phoenix might not be the best hockey market out there, but think of it this way. If you grew up in QC, Winnipeg, Hamilton, Markham, hockey has been in your blood since birth. You were raised on hockey, you were brought up in a culture where your parents watched hockey, your friends watched hockey, everyone played hockey. By hook or by crook, you were going to love hockey. If you're from Phoenix, that wasn't the case with you. The fans in Phoenix had to go out and find the sport, give it a chance, despite likely never having played it, or watched it, and the sport not being a part of their culture, only to eventually fall in love with the sport and their team the same as the majority of people up north did. If you love hockey, those fans are as good as it gets, even if they aren't particularly large in number, because they went out and fell in love with the sport on their own, nobody raised them on it. If the Coyotes don't work out, it will be sad, but out of respect for the sport that caused everyone to be a member here, stop trashing what are great fans in Phoenix. Especially if you know first hand what it is like to invest yourself emotionally in a team even while knowing they have a foot out the door.

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Old
11-06-2012, 04:26 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by GuelphStormer View Post
this group hug is charming, but come on ... phoenix fans simply did not do enough to support their team. and if it makes me a troll for stating the factually obvious then so be it, im a troll.
I think there is a difference between Phoenix fans and the Phoenix market. The Coyotes fans have done whatever they could to support the team. There may simply just not be enough of them, but that doesn't mean that any of the fans that they do have are "lesser fans" just because other people aren't fans too.

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:01 PM
  #32
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So I'm guessing many here are just waiting to see the tax iniative results for Glendale?

In a way its kinda of surreal, a group of Canadians watching the US elections, not to see who's president, but to see if a Tax vote in Glendale Arizona gets passed or not

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:06 PM
  #33
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kdb's warning was quite clear. If you cannot help yourself from ignoring it, you will be removed from the covnersation.

Enough market bashing.

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:16 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
So I'm guessing many here are just waiting to see the tax iniative results for Glendale?

In a way its kinda of surreal, a group of Canadians watching the US elections, not to see who's president, but to see if a Tax vote in Glendale Arizona gets passed or not
To be honest, I'm still not sure where the Coyotes situation ends up, regardless of the result of the election (for council and/or tax increase). Of course, if the tax increase is overturned and the majority of incoming council members oppose the lease, then chances increase substantially that the Jamison lease will not be passed. However, we still don't know what the NHL might do in that case. For all we know, they'll realize that they need to put more money on the table by reducing the purchase price, assuming that they still have strong preference for retaining the Phoenix market.

Conversely, even if the tax increase is retained and council is tilted in favor of the Jamison deal, there are a number of potential obstacles. First, we still don't know who is in Jamison's investment group and whether they will finally be able to finalize a purchase agreement with the NHL. Locally, the Jamison lease might face a legal challenge (over the gift clause), and could also be subject to a referendum to overturn it.

Either way, there isn't a particularly clear path to a local sale, which is remarkable after all of the efforts by the City of Glendale to support the retention of the Coyotes.

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:17 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
If the team moves, yes, it probably would have been better for Glendale to take the money.

But that's besides the point. Balsillie would have been a terrible owner, and given his current financial situation, quite possibly an owner who wouldn't be able to afford to maintain a team regardless.
Current financial situation? I know RIM's stock has collapsed but I doubt he hadn't taken a lot of money out over the years.

That being said yes, Glendale should have taken the $50 million paid down the arena debt and either sold the arena or farmed out the management of it

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:21 PM
  #36
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To be honest, I'm still not sure where the Coyotes situation ends up, regardless of the result of the election (for council and/or tax increase). Of course, if the tax increase is overturned and the majority of incoming council members oppose the lease, then chances increase substantially that the Jamison lease will not be passed. However, we still don't know what the NHL might do in that case. For all we know, they'll realize that they need to put more money on the table by reducing the purchase price, assuming that they still have strong preference for retaining the Phoenix market.

Conversely, even if the tax increase is retained and council is tilted in favor of the Jamison deal, there are a number of potential obstacles. First, we still don't know who is in Jamison's investment group and whether they will finally be able to finalize a purchase agreement with the NHL. Locally, the Jamison lease might face a legal challenge (over the gift clause), and could also be subject to a referendum to overturn it.

Either way, there isn't a particularly clear path to a local sale, which is remarkable after all of the efforts by the City of Glendale to support the retention of the Coyotes.
I agree. I think the tax vote is big because, as you said, depending on who gets voted in-it will be interesting to see if the NHL does indeed lower the sale price, something it's been hesitant to do.

My purely speculative gut thinks that if the tax vote is overturned and the council is Anti-yote, I think the NHL at that point decide to cut bait, I think the NHL only hangs around if tax vote is oveturned, but it's a pro-yote council-they MIGHt still push it, but if it's antil yote, I think it's all she wrote.

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11-06-2012, 05:23 PM
  #37
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Co-signed.

We can be happy to have NHL hockey in <insert city> and still show some compassion and camaraderie toward those who are losing their team. Hockey fans as a whole are in this thing together.
Agree with this and well said Ernie.

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Old
11-06-2012, 05:31 PM
  #38
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assuming a market value AMF is 6 mill... they could have used the 50 mill from jim ballsili to pay the arena manager for 8 years without costing the city a penny (with minimum performace clauses).. so until 2018 not a penny of tax dollars spent.

Instead they pay 50 mill.... and if the deal somehow goes through another 70-80 mill until 2018.

0 tax payer dollars vs 120-130 mill tax payer dollars.

And yet Clark still insists it was the right decision to save the coyotes

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11-06-2012, 05:35 PM
  #39
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Either way, there isn't a particularly clear path to a local sale, which is remarkable after all of the efforts by the City of Glendale to support the retention of the Coyotes.
... no kidding. Kinda makes you wonder who's behind the wheel of the car huh Whilee?. Like watching Stephen Kings' Christine. Despite being runover by a Caterpillar, bombed, shot at, a sledgehammer taken to it, just comes back atcha. No driver? No matter. Life of its own.

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Old
11-06-2012, 06:00 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by objectiveposter View Post
assuming a market value AMF is 6 mill... they could have used the 50 mill from jim ballsili to pay the arena manager for 8 years without costing the city a penny (with minimum performace clauses).. so until 2018 not a penny of tax dollars spent.

Instead they pay 50 mill.... and if the deal somehow goes through another 70-80 mill until 2018.

0 tax payer dollars vs 120-130 mill tax payer dollars.

And yet Clark still insists it was the right decision to save the coyotes
Well if they didn't save the Coyotes then Westgate would have gone into foreclosure. Thankfully that was saved.

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Old
11-06-2012, 06:33 PM
  #41
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What's a good site to follow the Glendale stuff?

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11-06-2012, 07:08 PM
  #42
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Here's some interesting info...

http://www.glendaleaz.com/clerk/docu...t2012Final.pdf

What happened to the "check the box of the person you want to win"????

*EDIT* guess we also know how they worded the Propostion... May be confusing to some...


Last edited by ajmidd12: 11-06-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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Old
11-06-2012, 07:16 PM
  #43
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Here's some interesting info...

http://www.glendaleaz.com/clerk/docu...t2012Final.pdf

What happened to the "check the box of the person you want to win"????

*EDIT* guess we also know how they worded the Propostion... May be confusing to some...
I never knew Glendale was a bilingual community.

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Old
11-06-2012, 07:21 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ajmidd12 View Post
Here's some interesting info...

http://www.glendaleaz.com/clerk/docu...t2012Final.pdf

What happened to the "check the box of the person you want to win"????

*EDIT* guess we also know how they worded the Propostion... May be confusing to some...
I'd think if people are confused they vote for no change. Sure some confused voters may vote for something different then they intended but the undecided may just look at it as, something must be hidden and therefore vote for no change.

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Old
11-06-2012, 07:39 PM
  #45
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Hey guys, been gone a long time... Has Jamieson finalised the sale of the Coyotes yet?

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Old
11-06-2012, 08:05 PM
  #46
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Any places online we can follow the results gents?

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Old
11-06-2012, 08:13 PM
  #47
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Any places online we can follow the results gents?
I believe this link...http://recorder.maricopa.gov/electio...en5Static.aspx...will have the results...

Currently showing zero votes in all races...

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11-06-2012, 08:28 PM
  #48
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I believe this link...http://recorder.maricopa.gov/electio...en5Static.aspx...will have the results...

Currently showing zero votes in all races...
It prop 457 right? I got checkforchange setup to alert me when something come up.

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Old
11-06-2012, 08:37 PM
  #49
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Got confirmation that results will start being posted in about 30-45 minutes

See link in ED's post

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Old
11-06-2012, 08:42 PM
  #50
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What happened to the "check the box of the person you want to win"????
every state does it differently. Within some states it can vary county by county

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