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Ovi can't even light up the KHL, can we finally admit that he's past his prime?

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Old
11-06-2012, 09:41 PM
  #351
VasDimops
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I think a lot has to do with Ovechkins decline.

Defenders/teams have figured him out and he was unable to adapt.
Coaching changes.
League decline in offence.
Maybe workout regime.

Either way, Ovechkin is an elite talent and I have no doubt he will be able to overcome whatever obstacles he has to and become one of the greatest player in the world....again.

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11-07-2012, 12:05 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
I think a lot has to do with Ovechkins decline.

Defenders/teams have figured him out and he was unable to adapt.
Coaching changes.
League decline in offence.
Maybe workout regime.

Either way, Ovechkin is an elite talent and I have no doubt he will be able to overcome whatever obstacles he has to and become one of the greatest player in the world....again.
Agreed, blame the coaches, blame the system, blame the game if you want, it's Ovy's job to adapt, even with the changes if he can't be a 100 point guy he at least has the talent to be a ppg guy, question is work ethic and attitude.

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11-07-2012, 12:46 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by VasDimops View Post
I think a lot has to do with Ovechkins decline.

Defenders/teams have figured him out and he was unable to adapt.
Coaching changes.
League decline in offence.
Maybe workout regime.

Either way, Ovechkin is an elite talent and I have no doubt he will be able to overcome whatever obstacles he has to and become one of the greatest player in the world....again.
Good way to put it. Ovechkin has been disappointing, but i expect him to do his job properly and work his way back. He has the skills all i wan't to see is work and passion. I have no doubt that OV is still in his prime and capable of potting 40-50 goals and 90-100 points. If that is your prime then we are talking about a good talent. Hopefully he gets his head straight and gets a coaching that lets him play in his strengths.

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Old
11-07-2012, 01:19 AM
  #354
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Ovechkin has to transform his game like Kovalchuk. Never thought I would say that.

Make sure the puck gets in deep, work from the the cycle, don't try to beat guys by yourself, be responsible in your own end. Kovalchuk has excelled ever since he was given more responsibility on the PK and in key situations at the end of games. Kovalchuk is a great passer as well, he compliments certain teammates quite nicely (although we would like him to shoot more). Maybe Oates can use some stuff he learned from Lemaire and Deboer who coached Kovalchuk perfectly and use them with Ovechkin? Only time will tell.

I didn't really watch Ovechkin closely this last season so maybe his gamed changed but that was just my 2 cents.


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11-07-2012, 02:50 AM
  #355
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"Team was playing defensively" doesn't really fly as an explanation for Ovechkin's "decline". Majority of the damage he did was either off the rush (and not even odd-man rushes; he generated chances consistently on 2 on 2s or 2 on 3s) or on the powerplay--not on, say, a balls to the wall forechecking system or an aggressive cycle where the D pinch like crazy. If Boudreau started having them trap in the neutral zone, that shouldn't have cut down on powerplays all that much and shouldn't have cut down on rushes almost at all.

Moreover, when Hunter really dialed back on players leaving the zone early and tried to generate offense off the cycle, that's something that would make sense in shredding Ovechkin's goal totals bad (its a strategy that's completely unsuited to his game), but, if I'm not mistaken, they actually went up relative to what they were in Boudreau's "trap."

Coaches knew what he liked to do by his second season at the latest. He still executed, so that explanation doesn't work either.

Some of you are looking for complicated answers to a simple situation. The obvious fact that anyone with eyes can see is that his burstability (and the frequency with which he showed it) is not what it once was. Whether he lost explosiveness due to conditioning, desire or age is anybody's guess.

Edit: one more thing. Backstrom being out shouldn't enter into it. The player OV was didn't need a playmaker and Backstrom generates from within the offensive zone, not in making his team get there quickly. But Green being out (and a shell of himself when he did play) would make sense as a contributing (but not primary) factor, since Green generates rushes.


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11-07-2012, 03:01 AM
  #356
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Originally Posted by NjDevsRR View Post
Ovechkin has to transform his game like Kovalchuk. Never thought I would say that.

Make sure the puck gets in deep, work from the the cycle, don't try to beat guys by yourself, be responsible in your own end. Kovalchuk has excelled ever since he was given more responsibility on the PK and in key situations at the end of games. Kovalchuk is a great passer as well, he compliments certain teammates quite nicely (although we would like him to shoot more). Maybe Oates can use some stuff he learned from Lemaire and Deboer who coached Kovalchuk perfectly and use them with Ovechkin? Only time will tell.

I didn't really watch Ovechkin closely this last season so maybe his gamed changed but that was just my 2 cents.
Would make sense, but I'm not certain he has Kovalchuk's vision. The difference between these two guys when OV was outproducing Kovy was always physical, not mental. If he doesn't, he can't make that transition.

What he can do is modify his game to be a sort of Brett Hull on steroids: look for holes (which would actually be easier for OV because he's so friggin strong) and trust for other guys to get him the puck in situations where the tender isn't about to catch up with his cannon.

He did used to do something like that from the left circle before he started playing the point.

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11-07-2012, 06:49 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Would make sense, but I'm not certain he has Kovalchuk's vision. The difference between these two guys when OV was outproducing Kovy was always physical, not mental. If he doesn't, he can't make that transition.

He easily has the ability to read plays like Kovalchuk, although more evident 2 years ago then last year, Ovechkin is an amazing play maker when he wants to be.

I can't believe I have to say this for Ovechkin but if it weren't for his linemates fanning on so many passes in 2010-2011, Ovechkin would've had a career year in assists.

Because of his goal scoring prowess his play making ability gets overlooked, assist's aren't the be all end all in determining play making skills but Ovechkin has recorded 4, 50+ assist seasons with only 2 those seasons being on an stacked offensive team.

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11-07-2012, 08:05 AM
  #358
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Didnt Ovechkins performance start to slide soon after that washington doctor was caught doing greasy things?

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11-07-2012, 08:12 AM
  #359
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Originally Posted by sunnyvale420 View Post
Didnt Ovechkins performance start to slide soon after that washington doctor was caught doing greasy things?
not really. that happened midway thru 2009-2010. he scored 50. he scored 5 in the 7 game playoffs with montreal plus the contriversial lost tying goal.

the loss to montreal had a lot more to do with his drop off than anything else. that and the nhl telling him to cool his jets in his hitting or face long term suspensions.

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11-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #360
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I think the book is out on Ovechkin, he needs to be more creative instead of doing the same thing over and over again. An example would be the Mtl-Wash series were he was completely neutralized - Habs simply isolated him from his teammates when he had the puck, so he held to it and made millions of low percentage shots over that made Halak look like a hero. Backstrom appeared far more dangerous in that series because he was more unpredictable.

Even if stays the same old he'll likely remain a 30-40g scorer because he still has an amazing skillset. He'll need to update his game plan if he wants to return to 90-100pts status however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by txpd
not really. that happened midway thru 2009-2010. he scored 50. he scored 5 in the 7 game playoffs with montreal plus the contriversial lost tying goal.
Didn't he score like 4 of these goals in the first 2 or 3 games? Just to clear things up before I get attacked on this, I don't think he disappeared in the Montreal series, just that he was constantly frustrated and unable to do his thing as usual.

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11-07-2012, 08:36 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
I think the book is out on Ovechkin, he needs to be more creative instead of doing the same thing over and over again. An example would be the Mtl-Wash series were he was completely neutralized - Habs simply isolated him from his teammates when he had the puck, so he held to it and made millions of low percentage shots over that made Halak look like a hero. Backstrom appeared far more dangerous in that series because he was more unpredictable.
Apparently scoring 5 goals and 5 assists in 7 games is being "completely neutralized" (that's a 117 point pace).

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11-07-2012, 08:52 AM
  #362
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There is no other player under such a scrutiny.
It seems to me even housewives know how to coach Ovi.

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11-07-2012, 08:56 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by od71 View Post
There is no other player under such a scrutiny.
It seems to me even housewives know how to coach Ovi.
Theres also not a player who gets so much blind support from his fans no matter how much worse he is now than what he once was.Never his fault...whether its the coach or the Canadian media, he never seems to be responsible.

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11-07-2012, 09:17 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Apparently scoring 5 goals and 5 assists in 7 games is being "completely neutralized" (that's a 117 point pace).
I do think Ovi has lost a step, but I think he can be a 100 point player again, or score 45+ with 40 assists, which would be fine by my standards. What I don't believe is that you figure a guy out after 5 seasons where he averages over 50g/season. Suddenly in season 6 you know how to defend him? Not after he has scored about 220 goals, but after 280 or something like that?

And to the argument from being neutralized in the WSH-Habs series: I get that he didn't lead his team singlehandedly to the SCF, but are people really accusing a player who scored 10 points in 7 games of being ineffective? Can someone elaborate? When would he be considered effective?

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11-14-2012, 09:24 PM
  #365
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Well, he's not lighting up the league, but that "pass" at around 2:18 was pretty nifty


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11-15-2012, 08:01 PM
  #366
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Well, he's not lighting up the league, but that "pass" at around 2:18 was pretty nifty

No one is saying that Ovi is a tomato can... just that he's past his prime.

Remember this Ovi?

Long gone, eh? His shot these days, is not nearly as accurate as it used to be.

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11-15-2012, 10:18 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Endersoldier View Post
Considering he eats up more of his team's cap space than anyone in the league, it matters.

Ovechkin put up 52 goals in 2005-06. He put up 92 points in 06-07 and helped Chris Clark get 30 goals. He did this with a mess of a franchise at the time. He can do better than last year, that's all I'm saying. Defensive system or not, it was clear to me that he wasn't playing as well as years past.

I think he can get back to the PPG-90 point area. He's too talented to say otherwise. But I'm sorry if I'm calling him out for a poor season. I expect more because I know he can do more.
Ovie is like a baseball batter that swings at everything. He's way to predictable now. I would say he's past his prime. The NHL has figured him out.

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11-15-2012, 10:54 PM
  #368
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There is more to Ovechkins story...I would bet a decent amount of change on it, if there is one thing im good at its reading people and situations. The question is if we ever will find out the whole story.

When you look at everything it doesn't add up, its like in say accounting, if a financial statement has more 7's, 8's & 9's combined then 1's, 2's & 3's then the statement is fraudulent (for large corporations). The same mathematical principal's are actually applied to sports in finding cheats...but without solid evidence you cant even hint at it.

My point is there is almost certainly more to all of this...

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11-16-2012, 08:49 AM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
There is more to Ovechkins story...I would bet a decent amount of change on it, if there is one thing im good at its reading people and situations. The question is if we ever will find out the whole story.

When you look at everything it doesn't add up, its like in say accounting, if a financial statement has more 7's, 8's & 9's combined then 1's, 2's & 3's then the statement is fraudulent (for large corporations). The same mathematical principal's are actually applied to sports in finding cheats...but without solid evidence you cant even hint at it.

My point is there is almost certainly more to all of this...
lol. It's simple math

Size + Explosiveness + Speed + Wicked and Accurate Shot+ Strenght of a Bull = Old Ovi

Size - Explosiveness - Speed - Wicked and Accurate Shot + Strenght of a bull = New Ovi.

Will we ever see the Old Ovi again? Who knows? Can Ovi reinvent himself into a New Old Ovi? It remains to be seen.

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11-16-2012, 12:34 PM
  #370
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
lol. It's simple math

Size + Explosiveness + Speed + Wicked and Accurate Shot+ Strenght of a Bull = Old Ovi

Size - Explosiveness - Speed - Wicked and Accurate Shot + Strenght of a bull = New Ovi.

Will we ever see the Old Ovi again? Who knows? Can Ovi reinvent himself into a New Old Ovi? It remains to be seen.
So let me get this straight.

"Old Ovi":
-Big
-Explosive
-Fast
-Wicked shot
-Strength of a bull

"New Ovi":
-Big
-Strength of a bull

and that's it? Ovechkin has lost all his offensive prowess? So it would be reasonable to say that you expect Ovechkin to toil in the NHL as a bottom 6er fulfilling a mostly checking role in the future?

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11-16-2012, 01:37 PM
  #371
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Originally Posted by UCantHandleMyRiddum View Post
Ovechkin: 13GP 6G 8A 14PTS (On 1 of the best teams in the league)
Malkin: 13GP 5G 12A 17PTS (On a bubble Team)
Kovy: 11GP 7G 13A 20PTS +12
Radulov: 19Gp 8G 16A 24PTS

I'm not saying that Ovi sucks, I'm just saying that he's clearly a shadow of his former self. Prime Ovi would have about 11 goals right now.
if by "past his prime" you mean he will not be a 60 goal scorer the rest of his career, i can see that. i still think he can be a 50 goal scorer though.

the sad part is, Ovi "past his prime" today, is still better then 99% of the players in the NHL

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11-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Frkinator View Post
There is more to Ovechkins story...I would bet a decent amount of change on it, if there is one thing im good at its reading people and situations. The question is if we ever will find out the whole story.

When you look at everything it doesn't add up, its like in say accounting, if a financial statement has more 7's, 8's & 9's combined then 1's, 2's & 3's then the statement is fraudulent (for large corporations). The same mathematical principal's are actually applied to sports in finding cheats...but without solid evidence you cant even hint at it.

My point is there is almost certainly more to all of this...
My thoughts as well. He could be coasting more now after his massive contract with the addition of the nhl figuring out how to neutralize his style of play, or since his doctors have changed he doesnt have the strength or energy to play the style he used to

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11-16-2012, 02:45 PM
  #373
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if by "past his prime" you mean he will not be a 60 goal scorer the rest of his career, i can see that. i still think he can be a 50 goal scorer though.

the sad part is, Ovi "past his prime" today, is still better then 99% of the players in the NHL
Well that wouldn't mean he was at his best in a goal-scoring sense then, would it?

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11-17-2012, 08:00 PM
  #374
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Though I like Ovi, but I would say, had he stayed in Russia, hadn't he moved to the NHL, he would never have become a superstar. He would be just a good player, like many others. Be honest, he doesn't have superskills. He is gritty, powerful, yes. Obviously, he is NA style hockey player.
That's why, he will go back to the NHL, as soon as lockout is over, no matter what he says in Russia.

Honestly, I didn't expect from him a good performance in the KHL. But he exceeded my expectation. He's doing not bad. Look even at Malkin, obviously the best player in the world last season, yesterday was another pointless night, another lost game. He was out of temper. I have never seen him as irritated as he was last game. Even for him it's not an easy walk there. Look at Kane. He has shown absolute zero. 1 point in 12 games. Dinamo Minsk has parted with him. Nevertheless, my respect to him, at least he has balls to move to new league without fear of being accused if something would go wrong. Look at Rinne or Bryzg. Rinne sometimes looks like a circus clown. If he is one of the best goalies in the NHL, I should try too. Zdeno Chara. Since he joined Lev (Prague), Lev lost 8 games in a row.

So, don't be hard on Ovi. He is really doing not bad.


Last edited by od71: 11-19-2012 at 02:37 AM.
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11-17-2012, 08:24 PM
  #375
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I definitely think he's past his prime, just a gut feeling I have. As far as what has caused him to decline, I'm not really sure. Could be the contract, could be the suspensions, could be that he was on roids, could be that his style has been figured out, could be that the Caps have changed their system. Regardless of what it is, I think we've seen his peak which is a damn shame because he was a ton of fun to watch during it and (back then) it seemed like he wasn't going to slow down like he has.

Still a great player though, but no longer do I consider him part of the "Big 3" and Stamkos has replaced him at this point.

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