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Old
11-06-2012, 09:20 AM
  #176
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So what a coach/gm says holds value ah? Well how did that work out for Luke schenn .. I can name a bunch of players a coach over hypes. Doesn't make it true. And now I read at worst couturier will be j stall or Kessler .. At worst? And people wonder why allot say he is overrated .
Sometimes...when most Flyer fans have been saying he's our best defensive forward and the coach said it from the first game of the season it's probably true. I don't think Lavy would just hand a rookie that title. I never said anything about Kesler but I think Couturier's potential is a Kopitar like player.

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11-06-2012, 11:36 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Stupid question, but who matched up against Crosby?
Wasn't as tightly matched as Malkin, IIRC:

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11-06-2012, 01:15 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Stupid question, but who matched up against Crosby?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tit_fbYnmLc

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11-06-2012, 01:17 PM
  #179
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Stupid question, but who matched up against Crosby?
Giroux

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11-06-2012, 02:41 PM
  #180
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imo

Couts >> Gardiner

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11-06-2012, 03:00 PM
  #181
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Jake Gardiner, a rookie defenseman, outscored(in less games) Sean Couturier, a rookie forward last season. One rookie made the 11/12 All-Rookie team while one rooke did not. Toronto also adds a 20G+-40pt+ top 9 forward in his prime..

And Toronto is still told to add!

Oh HFBoards.. You never fail to make laugh.

--
Oh and before I get..Bu-but Couturier shut down Malkin in the playoffs! Well firstly, Malkin was far above PPG that series posting 3G-8pts in 6gp and while he wasn't as effective at ES it is well-known that was a very PP-based scoring series. Secondly, Couturier posted a paltry 4pts in 11gp, scoring in only 1gp of the playoffs and going scoreless in the other 10gp.

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11-06-2012, 03:11 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Jake Gardiner, a rookie defenseman, outscored(in less games) Sean Couturier, a rookie forward last season. One rookie made the 11/12 All-Rookie team while one rooke did not. Toronto also adds a 20G+-40pt+ top 9 forward in his prime..

And Toronto is still told to add!

Oh HFBoards.. You never fail to make laugh.
This isn't an argument. A better rookie season alone doesn't make a player more valuable, especially since one player has a number of years on the other.

Quote:
--
Oh and before I get..Bu-but Couturier shut down Malkin in the playoffs! Well firstly, Malkin was far above PPG that series posting 3G-8pts in 6gp and while he wasn't as effective at ES it is well-known that was a very PP-based scoring series. Secondly, Couturier posted a paltry 4pts in 11gp, scoring in only 1gp of the playoffs and going scoreless in the other 10gp.
Again, not an argument.

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Old
11-06-2012, 03:17 PM
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Jake Gardiner, a rookie defenseman, outscored(in less games) Sean Couturier, a rookie forward last season. One rookie made the 11/12 All-Rookie team while one rooke did not. Toronto also adds a 20G+-40pt+ top 9 forward in his prime..

And Toronto is still told to add!

Oh HFBoards.. You never fail to make laugh.

--
Oh and before I get..Bu-but Couturier shut down Malkin in the playoffs! Well firstly, Malkin was far above PPG that series posting 3G-8pts in 6gp and while he wasn't as effective at ES it is well-known that was a very PP-based scoring series. Secondly, Couturier posted a paltry 4pts in 11gp, scoring in only 1gp of the playoffs and going scoreless in the other 10gp.
So much wrong with this post.

For the hundredth time, Couturier was not put in a position to succeed offensively. He was not there to put up points, rather to play an effective shut down game against top opponents in high leverage situations and be on the 2nd team PK. He was such an invaluable piece last year, even though he only put up 27 points.

To give you a perspective on how good he was defensively, read my thread from earlier this year:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...395&highlight=

"Malkin, who had one of the best seasons in terms of even-strength production since the lockout, was held to 3 assists in 12 games when Sean Couturier was on the ice 5 v 5."

Couturier was a 18/19 year old rookie last year.

Gardiner was a 21 year old rookie last year. Those extra years of development are huge.

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11-06-2012, 03:20 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
This isn't an argument. A better rookie season alone doesn't make a player more valuable, especially since one player has a number of years on the other.



Again, not an argument.
You want to know what's actually not an argument? What you just wrote.

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11-06-2012, 03:25 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
This isn't an argument. A better rookie season alone doesn't make a player more valuable, especially since one player has a number of years on the other.



Again, not an argument.

Those are valid points which are being conveniantly ignored.

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11-06-2012, 03:34 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Those are valid points which are being conveniantly ignored.
No, they aren't. A young player's value doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is context. All things being equal, a 21 year old should be better than an 18 year old. He has 3 years of development on him, and his game should show this. A GM isn't just going to ignore the fact that the 18 year old has 3 years to get where the 21 year old is.

Furthermore, as has been mentioned a number of times, how a player is used can have a great impact on their season. Typically, players who battle it out for the Calder are the ones on teams that have immediate need for their services, and who are thrown into a situation where they get lots of minutes and opportunity quickly. In this case, Gardiner was given great opportunity to put up good numbers. He was given a lot of offensive starts, was not relied on heavily to play against top opposition, and was basically put in a very good situation.

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11-06-2012, 03:35 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
You want to know what's actually not an argument? What you just wrote.
Dude, you used the rookie all-star game to try to make a point.

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11-06-2012, 04:00 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Sojourn View Post
No, they aren't. A young player's value doesn't exist in a vacuum. There is context. All things being equal, a 21 year old should be better than an 18 year old. He has 3 years of development on him, and his game should show this. A GM isn't just going to ignore the fact that the 18 year old has 3 years to get where the 21 year old is.

Furthermore, as has been mentioned a number of times, how a player is used can have a great impact on their season. Typically, players who battle it out for the Calder are the ones on teams that have immediate need for their services, and who are thrown into a situation where they get lots of minutes and opportunity quickly. In this case, Gardiner was given great opportunity to put up good numbers. He was given a lot of offensive starts, was not relied on heavily to play against top opposition, and was basically put in a very good situation.

And in this particular case, you think all things are equal? Comparing a prospect who was ranked as a 2nd rounder heading into the draft, the one who switched to defense when he was around 16, the one who was considered a long term project all along...vs the big, two-way center who was touted as a 1st overall well before he was drafted? Yeah I think one of those would more than likely make a greater impact at a younger age, but that doesn't automatically mean his upside is greater. And am I wrong to say that defenseman generally take longer before they are making an impact at the nhl level? This context thing works both ways, right?

It's not really clear how many years of development Gardiner has on Couturier, since Gardiner has been playing D for about 5 years now. Add to the fact, that Couts was born into a pro hockey family, he may have been groomed to be a pro player early on.

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11-06-2012, 04:46 PM
  #189
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Both sides are still whining over who's prospect is bigger than who's? Couturier is a defensive stalwart who was valuable for philly's run last season. The guy can play both sides of the ice and can even be a pest and distract the best players in the game from scoring.

Gardiner was a stand out defenseman late last season when he started potting goals and points like the season was going to end. He was the only defenseman who showed any effort late last season and is a very valuable member to our team.

I still don't understand the arguement going on here. Personally I could care less who is more valuable. Neither player will be leaving their respective teams due to their value to their team alone. Stop whining and just respect the good prospect that you have.

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11-06-2012, 04:49 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
And in this particular case, you think all things are equal? Comparing a prospect who was ranked as a 2nd rounder heading into the draft, the one who switched to defense when he was around 16, the one who was considered a long term project all along...vs the big, two-way center who was touted as a 1st overall well before he was drafted? Yeah I think one of those would more than likely make a greater impact at a younger age, but that doesn't automatically mean his upside is greater. And am I wrong to say that defenseman generally take longer before they are making an impact at the nhl level? This context thing works both ways, right?

It's not really clear how many years of development Gardiner has on Couturier, since Gardiner has been playing D for about 5 years now. Add to the fact, that Couts was born into a pro hockey family, he may have been groomed to be a pro player early on.
What do the rankings have to do with this? Draft rankings aren't based specifically on NHL-readiness. They are based on who scouts believe will be the better player. You're trying to say that, because Couturier was ranked higher, that he's less likely to improve over time? That's quite a reach.

It's very clear how many years of development Gardiner has on Couturier. He's 3 years older than him. Switching to defense doesn't change his abilities. It's not like his entire development prior to switching to defense goes right out the window.

Yes, defensemen do take longer to develop... but we're talking about an 18 year old straight out of the draft here. Forwards don't peak at 18.

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11-06-2012, 04:51 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
To give you a perspective on how good he was defensively, read my thread from earlier this year:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...395&highlight=

"Malkin, who had one of the best seasons in terms of even-strength production since the lockout, was held to 3 assists in 12 games when Sean Couturier was on the ice 5 v 5."
Regarding this point, I don't really find that impressive, unless we compare how much actual ES ice time Couturier and Malkin shared together in total throughout the series. If Couturier primarily played on the PK against Malkin, we could say he was a miserable failure(although not entirely his fault, of course). We'd have to find out the total number of ES minutes Couturier and Malkin shared that series, and compare the 3 points/Number of ES minutes with Malkins ES points per 60. Even then, it's still a small sample size highly subjective to variance.

Otherwise it's just a stat that's out of context.

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11-06-2012, 05:05 PM
  #192
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Regarding this point, I don't really find that impressive, unless we compare how much actual ES ice time Couturier and Malkin shared together in total throughout the series. If Couturier primarily played on the PK against Malkin, we could say he was a miserable failure(although not entirely his fault, of course). We'd have to find out the total number of ES minutes Couturier and Malkin shared that series, and compare the 3 points/Number of ES minutes with Malkins ES points per 60. Even then, it's still a small sample size highly subjective to variance.

Otherwise it's just a stat that's out of context.
Evgeni Malkin was Couturier's most frequent opponent at 5 v 5 last year. Out of all the players in hockey, it was Malkin.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...1+13+29+31+33#

For the playoffs, look at the official play by play:

Here's game 1 from the series:

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreport...2/PL030141.HTM

Take a look for '71' on the right hand side (that's Malkin when he's on the ice). Now take a look at the left hand column to see who the Flyers center is when he's on the ice. Vast majority of the time it's 14 (Couturier).


Last edited by Roo Mad Bro: 11-06-2012 at 05:11 PM.
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11-06-2012, 05:13 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Evgeni Malkin was Couturier's most frequent opponent at 5 v 5 last year. Out of all the players in hockey, it was Malkin.

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...1+13+29+31+33#
Again, but if in 12 games, Couturier and Malkin shared I don't know, an average of 5 minutes of ES ice time per game, and 3 minutes of ES time with others in each game, then that would mean Malkin's ES scoring per 60 would be 3 points per 60, which is still very respectable, and I wouldn't consider that being shut down.

I made up the numbers simply to show that without context it's hard to take anything from that, especially as it is still a fairly small sample size.

Simply from a numbers point of view, it's hard to claim he shut down Malkin unless everything is taken into account.

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11-06-2012, 05:22 PM
  #194
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Stupid question, but who matched up against Crosby?
Giroux.

But we didn't shut Crosby down, just out scored him

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11-06-2012, 05:50 PM
  #195
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Dude, you used the rookie all-star game to try to make a point.
I'm sorry to break it to you buddy..but

The "Rookie All Star Game" does not equal the "Postseason All-Rookie Team"

One is in essence a popularity contest, while the other denotes the most exceptional rookies throughout a given season.

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11-07-2012, 06:37 AM
  #196
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What do the rankings have to do with this? Draft rankings aren't based specifically on NHL-readiness. They are based on who scouts believe will be the better player. You're trying to say that, because Couturier was ranked higher, that he's less likely to improve over time? That's quite a reach.

It's very clear how many years of development Gardiner has on Couturier. He's 3 years older than him. Switching to defense doesn't change his abilities. It's not like his entire development prior to switching to defense goes right out the window.

Yes, defensemen do take longer to develop... but we're talking about an 18 year old straight out of the draft here. Forwards don't peak at 18.

The higher ranked players are generally more NHL ready than the 2nd round types, especially guys who were considered as 1st overalls...no reach in saying that.

You are correct when you say that switching to defense doesn't change his abilities, but it certainly does change his development. Funny how you used the word abilities there. We are comparing a kid who's played d for about 5 or 6 years now, vs a forward who's played the position for what, his whole life I presume?
That's not saying that Gardiner's development went out the window when he switched to D, put certainly it would have impacted his development.

Nobody is saying that forwards peak at 18, where did I say that?

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11-07-2012, 07:02 AM
  #197
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I think the value difference between the two players comes down to position.

Gardiner is a top 4 dman and Couturier is a top 6 center

Top 4 dmen can be had for 2nd round picks. a la Grossman, wisniewski etc etc.

Top 6 centers rarely get traded , and when they do the price tag is much higher than a 2nd rounder. Chris kelly a 4th line center got traded for a 2nd rounder.

Mike fisher a top 6 center got traded for a 1st and a 3rd round pick.

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11-07-2012, 07:03 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
Both sides are still whining over who's prospect is bigger than who's? Couturier is a defensive stalwart who was valuable for philly's run last season. The guy can play both sides of the ice and can even be a pest and distract the best players in the game from scoring.

Gardiner was a stand out defenseman late last season when he started potting goals and points like the season was going to end. He was the only defenseman who showed any effort late last season and is a very valuable member to our team.

I still don't understand the arguement going on here. Personally I could care less who is more valuable. Neither player will be leaving their respective teams due to their value to their team alone. Stop whining and just respect the good prospect that you have.
Great post and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. I know that I'm a fierce Couturier supporter, but I also recognize that Jake Gardiner has a real bright future as a potential top 2 guy. Gardiner is a fantastic player who looks like he's going to develop into a very good offensive defenseman. I'd compare Gardiner's offensive game to that of Brian Rafalski, a fantastic offensive defenseman when he played.

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11-07-2012, 07:24 AM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think the value difference between the two players comes down to position.

Gardiner is a top 4 dman and Couturier is a top 6 center

Top 4 dmen can be had for 2nd round picks. a la Grossman, wisniewski etc etc.

Top 6 centers rarely get traded , and when they do the price tag is much higher than a 2nd rounder. Chris kelly a 4th line center got traded for a 2nd rounder.

Mike fisher a top 6 center got traded for a 1st and a 3rd round pick.

Hmmmn, no bias shown there eh?

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11-07-2012, 07:29 AM
  #200
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i think the value is there but both teams will probably look at schenn and JVR and see how the trade has worked out first and see if they still need a further upgrade at that position. But i think its a good move for both teams.

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