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Old
11-07-2012, 07:42 AM
  #201
Jtown
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Hmmmn, no bias shown there eh?
Ummm....what am i missing?

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11-07-2012, 07:50 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Ummm....what am i missing?

Should be pretty obvious.

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11-07-2012, 07:51 AM
  #203
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not obvious to me....what is it?

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11-07-2012, 08:02 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
not obvious to me....what is it?
If you're gonna call the 27 point center a top 6 (which I presume actually means top 2 center) then you should be rating Gardiner according to his potential as well, right?

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11-07-2012, 08:26 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
If you're gonna call the 27 point center a top 6 (which I presume actually means top 2 center) then you should be rating Gardiner according to his potential as well, right?
No i did not do it based on potential. If i said that then it would be Couturier first line center, and Gardiner top pairing dman.

If that is the case then you are looking at a staal/Richards type package for couturier and a matt carle/Brent burns type package for Gardiner....

When you compare those 2 packages the center proves to be more valuable.

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11-07-2012, 08:39 AM
  #206
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Gotcha, he's a 27 point 2nd line center...those are worth a fortune.

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11-07-2012, 08:41 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Gotcha, he's a 27 point 2nd line center...those are worth a fortune.

Last year he played the 4th line. He probably wont be getting top 6 minutes until next season.

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11-07-2012, 08:46 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
No i did not do it based on potential. If i said that then it would be Couturier first line center, and Gardiner top pairing dman.

If that is the case then you are looking at a staal/Richards type package for couturier and a matt carle/Brent burns type package for Gardiner....

When you compare those 2 packages the center proves to be more valuable.
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Last year he played the 4th line. He probably wont be getting top 6 minutes until next season.

I thought you did not base it on potential?

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11-07-2012, 08:51 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I thought you did not base it on potential?
Hmm by this logic sidney crosby is merely a second line center.

in 2010 Claude giroux centered the flyers 3rd line. That team had 4 centers, briere, richards, carter and giroux. By circumstance giroux was shifted to the 3rd line.

Last season our centers were giroux, briere, and a mixture of schenn and matt read.

Because of circumstance he is our 3rd best center.

But trust me on a team like tml he would be their first line center, or a team like the islanders he would be there 2nd line center. Many teams he would be a top 6 center .

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11-07-2012, 09:14 AM
  #210
Sundinisagod
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So 27 points, 14 mins a game = 2nd line center?

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11-07-2012, 09:18 AM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
So 27 points, 14 mins a game = 2nd line center?
This thread has gone the wrong way in a hurry.

Last year, Couturier was a bottom-6 forward. Last year, Gardiner was a bottom-4 offensive defenseman.

In the future, reasonably conservative projections would suggest that Couturier will develop into a top-6 center, and Gardiner will develop into a better-rounded top-4 D.

That's how I read his statement, and I don't think there's anything particularly problematic about it.

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11-07-2012, 09:21 AM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
So 27 points, 14 mins a game = 2nd line center?
Put up a poll value wise Gardiner vs. Couturier. Let the masses decide.

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11-07-2012, 09:22 AM
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
This thread has gone the wrong way in a hurry.

Last year, Couturier was a bottom-6 forward. Last year, Gardiner was a bottom-4 offensive defenseman.

In the future, reasonably conservative projections would suggest that Couturier will develop into a top-6 center, and Gardiner will develop into a better-rounded top-4 D.

That's how I read his statement, and I don't think there's anything particularly problematic about it.
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think the value difference between the two players comes down to position.

Gardiner is a top 4 dman and Couturier is a top 6 center

Top 4 dmen can be had for 2nd round picks. a la Grossman, wisniewski etc etc.

Top 6 centers rarely get traded , and when they do the price tag is much higher than a 2nd rounder. Chris kelly a 4th line center got traded for a 2nd rounder.

Mike fisher a top 6 center got traded for a 1st and a 3rd round pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
No i did not do it based on potential. If i said that then it would be Couturier first line center, and Gardiner top pairing dman.

If that is the case then you are looking at a staal/Richards type package for couturier and a matt carle/Brent burns type package for Gardiner....

When you compare those 2 packages the center proves to be more valuable.

Is that still how you read his statement?

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11-07-2012, 09:24 AM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
Put up a poll value wise Gardiner vs. Couturier. Let the masses decide.

I'm not argueing the value of Couturier vs Gardiner. I'm argueing that Couturier is not currently a number 2 center, would you like me to post that poll? Not that a poll here proves anything anyhowz.

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11-07-2012, 09:25 AM
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
So 27 points, 14 mins a game = 2nd line center?
This is why HF is frustrating. You clearly know that isn't what he meant so you hide behind that statistic to try and prove your point. Anyone who watched Couturier last year will be disappointed if his ceiling is a 2nd line center. He'll be just as valuable as Giroux after this season.

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11-07-2012, 09:27 AM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I'm not argueing the value of Couturier vs Gardiner. I'm argueing that Couturier is not currently a number 2 center, would you like me to post that poll? Not that a poll here proves anything anyhowz.
no currently he is our 4th line center.

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11-07-2012, 09:34 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
This is why HF is frustrating. You clearly know that isn't what he meant so you hide behind that statistic to try and prove your point. Anyone who watched Couturier last year will be disappointed if his ceiling is a 2nd line center. He'll be just as valuable as Giroux after this season.
Oh please enlighten me, what did he mean? He's made it clear that Couturier is a current #2 center, while Gardiner is currently a top 4 d...do you agree with this statement? I'm not talking about ceilings here, I'm not talking about 2016 either, I'm talking about the here and now...

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11-07-2012, 09:35 AM
  #218
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D-men usually take a little more time develop... compare the amount of 18 year forwards to the amount of 18 d-men. Gardiner is already early boomer (IMO) considering that he went the college route instead of the MJ. Honestly with Giroux and Schenn + Rielly and the young d-core in TO, i think this is would be a good move for both teams.

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11-07-2012, 09:41 AM
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
I think the value difference between the two players comes down to position.

Gardiner is a top 4 dman and Couturier is a top 6 center

Top 4 dmen can be had for 2nd round picks. a la Grossman, wisniewski etc etc.

Top 6 centers rarely get traded , and when they do the price tag is much higher than a 2nd rounder. Chris kelly a 4th line center got traded for a 2nd rounder.

Mike fisher a top 6 center got traded for a 1st and a 3rd round pick.
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no currently he is our 4th line center.

And Gardiner is currently our #2 defenseman...not that that makes him a legit #2 yet.

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11-07-2012, 10:03 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
And Gardiner is currently our #2 defenseman...not that that makes him a legit #2 yet.
True. However Gardiner benifits from playing on a defensively weak team, whereas Couterier is on a team loaded with center/ forward depth. Couterier on the Leafs would play top-6 and improve his stats with the increase in TOI and PP time. Gardiner in Philly would be 2nd pairing dman. Hence IMO Gardiner for Couterier isnt a wise swap for Philly unless Toronto adds

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11-07-2012, 10:40 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Jake Gardiner, a rookie defenseman, outscored(in less games) Sean Couturier, a rookie forward last season. One rookie made the 11/12 All-Rookie team while one rooke did not. Toronto also adds a 20G+-40pt+ top 9 forward in his prime..

And Toronto is still told to add!

Oh HFBoards.. You never fail to make laugh.

--
Oh and before I get..Bu-but Couturier shut down Malkin in the playoffs! Well firstly, Malkin was far above PPG that series posting 3G-8pts in 6gp and while he wasn't as effective at ES it is well-known that was a very PP-based scoring series. Secondly, Couturier posted a paltry 4pts in 11gp, scoring in only 1gp of the playoffs and going scoreless in the other 10gp.
Oh come on. It was such a wild series, the only real way you can compare how Malking performed in comparison with the rest of the team. He was the 3rd top scoring C on the team. He had 8 points in 6 games, in a series where Kennedy, Sullivan and Kunitz were all PPG. And this was a man who was a dominant force, the focal point of the team in the regular season.

Also, the point about the All-Rookie team has no relevance whatsoever. If they were picking 5 rookies from any positions it would, but they weren't. Let's face it, Couturier would have had to have gone some to beat Nugent-Hopkins into the Center position, considering how instantly important RNH is to Edmonton and the limited PP/ES ice-time Couturier got.

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11-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Oh please enlighten me, what did he mean? He's made it clear that Couturier is a current #2 center, while Gardiner is currently a top 4 d...do you agree with this statement? I'm not talking about ceilings here, I'm not talking about 2016 either, I'm talking about the here and now...
Going into this season...I'd have no problem calling Sean Couturier the 2nd line center on the Flyers. He will get PP time and will most likely end up leading Flyer forwards in TOI because he is Laviolette's favorite toy.

Last year, he was not a 2nd line center.

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11-07-2012, 11:33 AM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
Going into this season...I'd have no problem calling Sean Couturier the 2nd line center on the Flyers. He will get PP time and will most likely end up leading Flyer forwards in TOI because he is Laviolette's favorite toy.

Last year, he was not a 2nd line center.
Uh, yeah, there's a good chance that Couturier is playing as the Flyers 3rd line center, so that's a bit of a stretch. He was 9th in total TOI and 10th in TOI/G last year for Flyer forwards and he's going to jump all of those players to be first next year? Huge stretch, as I said.

The value between Gardiner and Couturier is very close, with Couturier having a slightly higher value IMO. There isn't on the other hand, this vast difference between the 2 like some want to believe.


Last edited by PayItForward: 11-07-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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11-07-2012, 11:41 AM
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duffy9748 View Post
Going into this season...I'd have no problem calling Sean Couturier the 2nd line center on the Flyers. He will get PP time and will most likely end up leading Flyer forwards in TOI because he is Laviolette's favorite toy.

Last year, he was not a 2nd line center.

You see, that is a projection on your part...there is a big difference of actually being a #2 than being projected as a number 2. A guy who has never held the number 2 slot nor put up the points or minutes isn't a #2 C, even if Philly fans say otherwise.

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11-07-2012, 05:07 PM
  #225
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
You see, that is a projection on your part...there is a big difference of actually being a #2 than being projected as a number 2. A guy who has never held the number 2 slot nor put up the points or minutes isn't a #2 C, even if Philly fans say otherwise.
Are you using those labels "1C, 2C, 1D, 2D, etc." to refer to the players' role on their particular team?

I think the consensus around here is that that's a poor way to think about it (Malkin isn't "really" a second-line center, after all). Rather, the question is how that player would fit on most teams or the average team in the NHL.

If that's the standard, it seems fair to refer to Couturier as solid 3C now (look at the Flyers depth at the position, compared to many other clubs). By the same token, I think Gardiner is a solid 4, who can play big (if some what "soft" minutes), but isn't quite ready to anchor a top-four pairing.

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