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Sergei Fedorov

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Old
11-05-2012, 10:34 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
Too young to see these players at their peaks, but how can a 150 point season be overrated?
Because it was put up by Steve Yzerman, who didn't get any official credit for his on-ice play until he was over 30.

I'm sure the argument will be "four players did it that year"...

Except one was Lemieux, one was Gretzky, one was Yzerman, and the last was Nicholls who took Gretzky' feeds on the PP and played sheltered second line minutes with Luc Robitaille. Basically a first line that got to play against second-unit opposition.

There's a reason Yzerman won the Pearson that year (over Lemieux's 199).

Getting back to Fedorov, many compare his Hart year to Yzerman's 155 year. Personally I don't think it's that much of a stretch, but I would put Yzerman's season ahead by a nose.

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11-05-2012, 10:40 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Look again, Fedorov won all of his individual hardware during the 3 full seasons that Coffey was in Detroit. He never won an individual award before or after Coffey.

Lidstrom was an elite 2-way D-man, one of the best ever and his emergence probably did help the team more than when Coffey was leading... but he was never Coffey offensively.
I dunno, two 20 point playoffs (plus a 19... too bad), two time Olympian, first recipient of the Kharlamov trophy (top Russian, in '02/03; Kovalchuk, Ovechkin x5, Datsyuk, and Malkin have won since)... all after Coffey. Goal scoring remained consistent for 8 years after Coffey left, too, so how was Fedorov benefiting more from Coffey than the other way around? But Coffey is a red herring anyway. He dipped below PPG for the first time in his career by the time he left Detroit, and it's not like you're seriously arguing that Coffey was an overwhelmingly large factor in Fedorov winning Selkes, are you?!



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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Yzerman's offensive production dropped a little along with the league wide drops in scoring after the beginning of the Dead Puck era.

Fedorov's offensive production dropped off of a damn cliff... and he was 5 years younger than Yzerman.

3 Years before the Dead Puck era (93/94, 94/95, 95/96):
Yzerman: 1.16
Fedorov: 1.37

6 Years after the Dead Puck era:
Yzerman: 0.97
Fedorov: 0.86

Fedorov's best season amongst those 6 years (0.92 ppg) was equal to Yzerman's worst (0.92 ppg).
What is the merit in your analysis here? We all know that Yzerman's drop in production was a direct result of injuries and a lockout limiting him to under 60 games in back-to-back seasons as a soon-to-be 30 year old. Yzerman played every game of the strike-shortened '94/95 season (so, while Coffey was still there), and still finished outside the top 50 scorers (6th on the Red Wings, btw).

And since Fedorov's goal scoring remained so consistent for 8 years after Coffey, but his assist totals started taking a hit (Yzerman is the one who really started scoring less), isn't it more reasonable to assume that there just weren't as many goals going around to get assists on, or less quality finishers around him? Also, league scoring was over 3 GPG on average up to '93/94, and starts dipping under 3 in the strike shortened year, and the trend continues onward. Maybe Fedorov's decline was so abrupt that it affected scoring levels league-wide?

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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
So, to explain why Fedorov couldn't crack the top-20 scorers (and usually not the top-30 either) in 14 of his other 15 career seasons, we can believe;
A) some 1 year holdout seems to have ruined the rest of his career spanning 12 years.
B) Scotty Bowman, the man who coached him through his 3 career seasons, changed the system drastically more against Fedorov than Yzerman.
C) For a short period of time, Fedorov just had great chemistry with a teammate (probably Coffey) and the moment he was traded... Fedorov returned back down to Earth.
Naw, I think I explained it better above, and previously. All the things you list at the end are certainly part of the equation, but the accompanying hyperbole certainly isn't.

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11-06-2012, 12:25 AM
  #178
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I had an interesting thought.

A good comparable to the Fedorov/Yzerman v. Lafleur might be another Wings/Habs compeitition; Howie Morenz vs. Marty Barry.

Morenz is considered the league' first superstar. Barry was the coring center for Boston before starring with Detroit later in his career. The two had significant overlap, with Barry outscoring Morenz more often than not. They had comparable career numbers. Barry is generally an afterthought, while Morenz is near the top of all-time lists.

Was Morenz that much better? Does defense/all-around play make that much of a difference? Morenz v. Barry seems to suggest so.

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11-06-2012, 07:52 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Things this doesn't account for:
2) Yzerman played a primarily checking role in 1994-95, with almost no offensive role. His numbers suffered accordingly. If you only use 1993-94 and 1995-96, Yzerman's PPG is 1.28.
Players have ebbs and flows. I used multiple seasons for both players. It's just that in one case, Fedorov never produced like he did with Coffey before or after.

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Also, I am amused that your sample conveniently cuts off at 2001-02, when Fedorov scored 83 points in 2002-03.

Regardless, Fedorov was an absolutely elite forward during that time.
That was 1 clear outlier in Fedorov's post-Coffey career that I've mentioned repeatedly now. It was the only time that he ever cracked the top-20 in scoring without Coffey being on the team.

You must think a lot of those 2.5 seasons.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I dunno, two 20 point playoffs (plus a 19... too bad), two time Olympian, first recipient of the Kharlamov trophy (top Russian, in '02/03; Kovalchuk, Ovechkin x5, Datsyuk, and Malkin have won since)... all after Coffey.
Uh huh, in 3 full seasons with Coffey:
- he won 4 major NHL trophies (Hart, LBP & Selke x2) and made the 1st All Star once.
- he also had two 20+ point postseasons within 3 years.... for 2/3.

In his other 15 seasons:
- he never won another individual award and never made another end of season All Star team.
- he had two 20+ point postseasons and another at 19.... for 3/15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Goal scoring remained consistent for 8 years after Coffey left, too,
3 full seasons with Coffey:
Fedorov: 47 goals per 82 games.

8 Years after Coffey:
Fedorov: 32 goals per 82 games.

Your definition of consistent differs greatly from mine.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
so how was Fedorov benefiting more from Coffey than the other way around? But Coffey is a red herring anyway. He dipped below PPG for the first time in his career by the time he left Detroit, and it's not like you're seriously arguing that Coffey was an overwhelmingly large factor in Fedorov winning Selkes, are you?!
They probably both benefited from their chemistry; that's usually how that works.

I'm arguing that Coffey helped Fedorov score a lot of points and win trophies, including the Selke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
What is the merit in your analysis here? We all know that Yzerman's drop in production was a direct result of injuries and a lockout limiting him to under 60 games in back-to-back seasons as a soon-to-be 30 year old. Yzerman played every game of the strike-shortened '94/95 season (so, while Coffey was still there), and still finished outside the top 50 scorers (6th on the Red Wings, btw).
If Fedorov and Coffey worked well together, Yzerman may not have had much ice time with him.

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11-06-2012, 08:26 AM
  #180
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You don't score 1100 points in the league because you're overrated, one of the top 50 best ever!

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11-06-2012, 11:25 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
3 full seasons with Coffey:
Fedorov: 47 goals per 82 games.

8 Years after Coffey:
Fedorov: 32 goals per 82 games.

Your definition of consistent differs greatly from mine.
Obviously. Fedorov has nine 30 goal seasons, and 5 of them are after Coffey. And of course his GPG actually went down. Haven't you even heard of the dead puck era, or looked at league scoring levels as you go from 1996 toward 2000?

But seriously, Fedorov's GPG was 0.40 his first two NHL seasons, and it was in the 0.40s (or within 0.02; roughly 1 goal over a full season) in 6 of his 7 seasons after Coffey. Yeah, that's consistent. If they all saw their numbers boost during their time together, then there's definitely the synergy argument, like you suggest here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
They probably both benefited from their chemistry; that's usually how that works.

I'm arguing that Coffey helped Fedorov score a lot of points and win trophies, including the Selke.
Well, as long as you've figured out the bold part there. But I think Coffey going to a team of 20-something year old "finishers" (Fedorov, Kozlov, Larionov, Cicarrelli, Primeau, Sheppard, Yzerman) gave him points totals that made him look better than he actually was in his early/mid-30s (moreso than the opposite way around, imo), and stole him a Norris in '95 based primarily on his offensive numbers.

He had a 1980s-level assists pace in the half season that was '94/95, and he wasn't skating or shooting nearly as well as in the past (never scored 20 after 1991, and only had the pace in Detroit's freakish half '94/95 lockout year), so it's a good thing that Detroit group was good at turning simple outlet passes into scoring drives. Oh, and having Lidstrom the whole time probably didn't hurt anyone's ability to get quality chances, either. But yeah, it was probably mostly Coffey, lol.

As for Coffey helping Fedorov win Selkes, don't make me laugh. He had already finished a relatively close second to Carboneau in '91/92 (earned more 1st place votes than Carbo, btw) - a year before Coffey even became a Red Wing, and only Fedorov's 2nd in the league (Lidstrom's 1st), so that's pretty weak footing to start on there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
If Fedorov and Coffey worked well together, Yzerman may not have had much ice time with him.
Go through the hockey summary project and look at the scoresheets from '93-'96. Coffey was involved in plenty of scoring plays with both.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 11-06-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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11-06-2012, 02:57 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Uh huh, in 3 full seasons with Coffey:
- he won 4 major NHL trophies (Hart, LBP & Selke x2) and made the 1st All Star once.
- he also had two 20+ point postseasons within 3 years.... for 2/3.
How do you personally compare Tim Thomas to Tom Barrasso or Chris Osgood?

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11-06-2012, 05:21 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
It does. Brimsek dominated the league to the point where calling anyone else the best goalie during his career span is simply ignorant, but he didn't have nearly the level of competition Hasek did. Fedorov would likely have dominated the NHL in the 70s to a comparable degree as Lafleur did, if not greater.

It's like asking the question of who was greater, Yzerman or Lafleur? Yzerman never won the Art Ross or a Hart trophy, but his top scoring seasons beat Lafleur's; especially considering teammates.
There's a massive difference between comparing Lafluer to Yzerman and comparing him to Fedorov. Yzerman was a much better player than Fedorov. Lafluer had excellent competition against him. Clarke, Trottier, Dionne, etc. Although Fedorov went against Gretzky and Lemiuex he would have only one 1 Art Ross with out them. Fedorov only had 2 seasons in top 10 scoring. Competition can only be so much of an excuse for someone with "elite skill." Fedorov played with guys like Lidstrom, Yzerman, Coffey, etc all of whom were on par with what Lafluer had to work with. Yzerman and Lafluer are both top 20 players of all time. Fedorov is borderline top 100 IMO.

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11-06-2012, 07:12 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
There's a massive difference between comparing Lafluer to Yzerman and comparing him to Fedorov. Yzerman was a much better player than Fedorov. Lafluer had excellent competition against him. Clarke, Trottier, Dionne, etc. Although Fedorov went against Gretzky and Lemiuex he would have only one 1 Art Ross with out them. Fedorov only had 2 seasons in top 10 scoring. Competition can only be so much of an excuse for someone with "elite skill." Fedorov played with guys like Lidstrom, Yzerman, Coffey, etc all of whom were on par with what Lafluer had to work with. Yzerman and Lafluer are both top 20 players of all time. Fedorov is borderline top 100 IMO.
I really don't even know where to start with this one. Yzerman a much better player than Fedorov? Lafleur having "excellent competition", but Fedorov and Yzerman both competing with two of arguably the top 4 players of all time? Both Yzerman and Fedorov would have 1 Art Ross if we erased Gretzky/Lemieux from history, btw. What "excuses" does a 3 time champion really have, or need anyway? Also, there were 7 different names on the Hart trophy in the 90s, and 9 different ones over the past decade. If that doesn't show you that there has been an increasing level of competition (or parity more than anything) among those at the very top of the game since the influx of Russians in '89, especially compared to decades between the 50s and 80s which were clearly dominated by a much shorter list of names, then I don't know what to tell you.

Fedorov playing with guys like Yzerman, but apparently Yzerman never played with a guy like Fedorov... interesting. Check out this list of points contributors in the playoffs during the overlap of Yzerman and Fedorov's time in Detroit: top Red Wing post season scorers between '90/91 and /02/03. Here are the regular season numbers: Red Wings in the regular season '90/91 to '02/03. You're right, they look like totally different players statistically, one of whom obviously benefited from the other.

Worse yet though, is comparing "what they had to work with" between possibly the strongest dynasty in history, and a team that never quite met anyone's definition of dynasty? And if you think Yzerman and Lafleur are in the same echelon all-time, separated by at least 80 spots from a guy like Fedorov, you better come equipped with some serious career value arguments that don't rely on raw scoring totals, and a demonstrably better grasp on the various eras in the history of the NHL, and what it was like to play/score in them.

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11-06-2012, 09:39 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov had 8 points in 7 games against San Jose (and FTM, he had 9 points in 7 games against Toronto the year before). The Wings were done in by the fact that "reliable veteran" Bob Essensa s*** the bed in two games, and despite playing well Chris Osgood (who should have played all the games, as he was the much better goalie) made a couple rookie mistakes.
It's important to remember Fedorov played through a concussion in the 94 playoffs. He was concussed and missed most of game #82 that year, as well as games #83 and #84. Former teammate Sean Burr was the one who delivered the high hit. If the Wings got past Toronto in game 7 and Feds was healthy that playoffs could look a whole lot different out west.

In the modern era he wouldn't have sniffed the ice in Round 1, but Bowman put him out there because Yzerman was struggling with injuries, and Fedorov played "decent", 8 points in 7 games.


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11-06-2012, 10:30 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
He was. Yzerman averaged 35-58-93 during Fedorov's Wings career, while Fedorov averaged 36-50-86. Yzerman played less, and was suffering significant injuries in his last few seasons; in Fedorov's last three seasons as a Wing, Yzerman averaged just shy of 41 games.

But for Fedorov vs. Lafleur; Fedorov was 8th in scoring during his career, Lafleur was 4th in scoring during his. Not a huge difference, especially when you consider the defenive difference between the two. Yzerman, for reference, was second in scoring during his career and is probably the indisputable best offensive player to never lead the league in scoring.

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11-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
There's a massive difference between comparing Lafluer to Yzerman and comparing him to Fedorov. Yzerman was a much better player than Fedorov.
I wouldn't call it massive. I will agree with the second point though.

Quote:
Lafluer had excellent competition against him. Clarke, Trottier, Dionne, etc.
All of whom could be argued as better players than Lafleur during the same period.

Quote:
Although Fedorov went against Gretzky and Lemiuex he would have only one 1 Art Ross with out them. Fedorov only had 2 seasons in top 10 scoring. Competition can only be so much of an excuse for someone with "elite skill." Fedorov played with guys like Lidstrom, Yzerman, Coffey, etc all of whom were on par with what Lafluer had to work with. Yzerman and Lafluer are both top 20 players of all time. Fedorov is borderline top 100 IMO.
You haven't quite grasped that the argument isn't just about offense, have you?

Let me ask you. If you could just pluck a player and add him to your team, would you take Daniel Sedin, a dynamic scoring winger who plays a fairly one-way game with high end playmaking and goal scoring in one of the more offense-friendly divisions, or Pavel Datsyuk, an elite two way center who plays in the lowest-scoring division? That seem like a no-brainer to me.

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11-07-2012, 12:45 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I really don't even know where to start with this one. Yzerman a much better player than Fedorov? Lafleur having "excellent competition", but Fedorov and Yzerman both competing with two of arguably the top 4 players of all time? Both Yzerman and Fedorov would have 1 Art Ross if we erased Gretzky/Lemieux from history, btw. What "excuses" does a 3 time champion really have, or need anyway? Also, there were 7 different names on the Hart trophy in the 90s, and 9 different ones over the past decade. If that doesn't show you that there has been an increasing level of competition (or parity more than anything) among those at the very top of the game since the influx of Russians in '89, especially compared to decades between the 50s and 80s which were clearly dominated by a much shorter list of names, then I don't know what to tell you.
Lafluer competed against guys like Clarke Dionne and Trottier and beat them all. Fedorov may have went against two all time greats but did they really affect Fedorovs scoring finishes? Two top ten finishes in a career is far from an elite offensive player regardless of era or competition. What excuse does a 5 time champion need?
Quote:
Fedorov playing with guys like Yzerman, but apparently Yzerman never played with a guy like Fedorov... interesting. Check out this list of points contributors in the playoffs during the overlap of Yzerman and Fedorov's time in Detroit: top Red Wing post season scorers between '90/91 and /02/03. Here are the regular season numbers: Red Wings in the regular season '90/91 to '02/03. You're right, they look like totally different players statistically, one of whom obviously benefited from the other. :sarcasm
I'm not sure why Yzerman was even brought into the conversation. I didn't bring him up. Thats why i listed Yzerman as a great player that Fedorov played with. Im not arguing Yzerman vs Lalfuer thats why i didnt list Fedorov as an Yzerman team mate. If you think Yzerman was better than Lafluer then I could see an argument for that. When talking about two players I would look at their whole careers not a sample size. Yzerman had a better prime and better longevity. A 36 yr old Yzerman led his team in points on a bad knee in 2002 to win the cup. He outscored Fedorov and I think was better defensively. Not to mention a better leader. Granted that's one playoff series but if you factor in Yzermans offensive prime BEFORE Fedorov was around I don't see how you can compare Yzerman and Fedorovs career.
Quote:
Worse yet though, is comparing "what they had to work with" between possibly the strongest dynasty in history, and a team that never quite met anyone's definition of dynasty? And if you think Yzerman and Lafleur are in the same echelon all-time, separated by at least 80 spots from a guy like Fedorov, you better come equipped with some serious career value arguments that don't rely on raw scoring totals, and a demonstrably better grasp on the various eras in the history of the NHL, and what it was like to play/score in them.
And who was the leader of that dynasty? He played with great players but he was the best of them. Look at the HfBoards top 70 players. Yzerman and Lafluer are considered top 20 players. Granted the list isn't perfect but it shows that my opinion isn't out of the norm. Lafluer had a much better peak and was better in the playoffs. I don't see an argument for Fedorov above or close to Lafluer. If you see one feel free to post it.

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11-07-2012, 12:52 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I wouldn't call it massive. I will agree with the second point though.
maybe massive wasn't the right word but I think the margin is clear.

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All of whom could be argued as better players than Lafleur during the same period.
Perhaps. I'd probably rank Clarke ahead of Lafluer but Lafleurs Hart trophies and Art Rosses over Dionne et all can't be ignored.
Quote:

You haven't quite grasped that the argument isn't just about offense, have you?

Let me ask you. If you could just pluck a player and add him to your team, would you take Daniel Sedin, a dynamic scoring winger who plays a fairly one-way game with high end playmaking and goal scoring in one of the more offense-friendly divisions, or Pavel Datsyuk, an elite two way center who plays in the lowest-scoring division? That seem like a no-brainer to me.
The obvious answer there is Datsyuk. But in their prime they are more comparable on offense. The gap between Lafluer and Fedorv is more than that. Would you take an 05-07 Rod Brind'amour over Ovechkin in the same time?

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11-07-2012, 11:45 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
maybe massive wasn't the right word but I think the margin is clear.



Perhaps. I'd probably rank Clarke ahead of Lafluer but Lafleurs Hart trophies and Art Rosses over Dionne et all can't be ignored.
The obvious answer there is Datsyuk. But in their prime they are more comparable on offense. The gap between Lafluer and Fedorv is more than that. Would you take an 05-07 Rod Brind'amour over Ovechkin in the same time?
Datsyuk 87-87-97-97 is comparable to Ovechkin's prime? Fedorov's 94-95-96 years are closer to Lafleur's best than Datsyuk's best are to Ovechkin's in terms of raw points. And Ovechkin is better at the other things.

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11-07-2012, 11:59 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Lafluer competed against guys like Clarke Dionne and Trottier and beat them all. Fedorov may have went against two all time greats but did they really affect Fedorovs scoring finishes? Two top ten finishes in a career is far from an elite offensive player regardless of era or competition. What excuse does a 5 time champion need?

I'm not sure why Yzerman was even brought into the conversation. I didn't bring him up. Thats why i listed Yzerman as a great player that Fedorov played with. Im not arguing Yzerman vs Lalfuer thats why i didnt list Fedorov as an Yzerman team mate. If you think Yzerman was better than Lafluer then I could see an argument for that. When talking about two players I would look at their whole careers not a sample size. Yzerman had a better prime and better longevity. A 36 yr old Yzerman led his team in points on a bad knee in 2002 to win the cup. He outscored Fedorov and I think was better defensively. Not to mention a better leader. Granted that's one playoff series but if you factor in Yzermans offensive prime BEFORE Fedorov was around I don't see how you can compare Yzerman and Fedorovs career.


And who was the leader of that dynasty? He played with great players but he was the best of them. Look at the HfBoards top 70 players. Yzerman and Lafluer are considered top 20 players. Granted the list isn't perfect but it shows that my opinion isn't out of the norm. Lafluer had a much better peak and was better in the playoffs. I don't see an argument for Fedorov above or close to Lafluer. If you see one feel free to post it.
Before this gets messy, let it be known that I have Lafleur clearly ahead of both Yzerman AND Fedorov. And the only reason I can even put Yzerman ahead of Fedorov is because of the 80s scoring bonus that Yzerman gets before he built a little more balance into his game. I still think an unleashed Fedorov could have slaughtered the late 80s/early 90s even more than Yzerman, but I can't rank Fedorov above him based on hypotheticals. What they did vs their peers is certainly more important, imo. Point being that, I, personally, have a larger gap between Lafleur and Yzerman than I do Yzerman and Fedorov, and it's because of just how closely they (Yzerman/Fedorov) compare over more than a decade of career overlap.

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11-07-2012, 01:32 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Before this gets messy, let it be known that I have Lafleur clearly ahead of both Yzerman AND Fedorov. And the only reason I can even put Yzerman ahead of Fedorov is because of the 80s scoring bonus that Yzerman gets before he built a little more balance into his game. I still think an unleashed Fedorov could have slaughtered the late 80s/early 90s even more than Yzerman, but I can't rank Fedorov above him based on hypotheticals. What they did vs their peers is certainly more important, imo. Point being that, I, personally, have a larger gap between Lafleur and Yzerman than I do Yzerman and Fedorov, and it's because of just how closely they (Yzerman/Fedorov) compare over more than a decade of career overlap.
Take note that Yzerman himself was used in a checking role for about 35%-40% of his ice time in the 80s, and was significantly better defensively in his offensive prime than Lafleur ever was. An all-offense Yzerman could have put up absolutely insane numbers. Especially given that he played similar or less ice time than Lafleur. Don't get me wrong, I think Lafleur was absolutely dominant. But Yzerman had an equal/better offensive prime with a higher peak, and played with next to nothing for offensive help.

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11-07-2012, 05:31 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Fedorov only had 2 seasons in top 10 scoring. Competition can only be so much of an excuse for someone with "elite skill." Yzerman and Lafluer are both top 20 players of all time. Fedorov is borderline top 100 IMO.
He played 18 seasons in the NHL.
Fedorov was only in the top-10 twice, both while Coffey was in Det.
He was only in the top-25 x 5 times, 3 while Coffey was in Det.

Fedorov was regularly outscored by Bobby Holik while he was in his late 20's.

Datsyuk alone finished top-20 in each of the first 4 seasons after the lockout.

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11-07-2012, 06:26 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He played 18 seasons in the NHL.
Fedorov was only in the top-10 twice, both while Coffey was in Det.
He was only in the top-25 x 5 times, 3 while Coffey was in Det.
Dude, just give this up. Yzerman never won a Cup before Fedorov. Fedorov must obviously be the better leader, since he led most of their successful post seasons in scoring while also playing a top checking role. I don't actually believe that, but see what I did there? You should, because you've become a pro at it in this thread.

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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Fedorov was regularly outscored by Bobby Holik while he was in his late 20's.
You're going to either have to check that again, or explain your definition of "regularly". They were neck and neck in points thanks to Fedorov missing a lot more games than Holik for a stretch there, but is that really when you're talking about? lol. Hurrrrrr.... durrrr.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Datsyuk alone finished top-20 in each of the first 4 seasons after the lockout.
Well, what can I say. There isn't a single player in the post '05 lockout that even comes close to the level of Gretzky, Lemieux, or Jagr for starters, so are we handicapping the remaining 17? Or should we explore the all-time rankings of the "regulars" from the top 20 lists of the 80s and 90s and prognosticate which guys from the '05+ era are "likely" to overtake them for "all time" in the end? I'm sure you know that those top 20s aren't on an equal playing field, but I'm also sure that you don't care. I'm sure Cheechoo, Heatley, Marc Savard, Vanek, Lecavalier, etc. have a fine chance at passing guys like Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Gilmour, Oates, Selanne, etc on the all-time lists once all the career value is reckoned.

But I think Messier, Hull, and Fedorov are the only players to ever beat Gretzky for the Hart in a year where Gretzky won the scoring title (mind you, there are 11 years where others had a chance to make such a claim). Think about that one for a moment.

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11-07-2012, 06:29 PM
  #195
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Best player of all time. /thread

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11-07-2012, 07:28 PM
  #196
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Changed your username just for that? lol.

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11-07-2012, 07:49 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Dude, just give this up. Yzerman never won a Cup before Fedorov. Fedorov must obviously be the better leader, since he led most of their successful post seasons in scoring while also playing a top checking role. I don't actually believe that, but see what I did there? You should, because you've become a pro at it in this thread.



You're going to either have to check that again, or explain your definition of "regularly". They were neck and neck in points thanks to Fedorov missing a lot more games than Holik for a stretch there, but is that really when you're talking about? lol. Hurrrrrr.... durrrr.....



Well, what can I say. There isn't a single player in the post '05 lockout that even comes close to the level of Gretzky, Lemieux, or Jagr for starters, so are we handicapping the remaining 17? Or should we explore the all-time rankings of the "regulars" from the top 20 lists of the 80s and 90s and prognosticate which guys from the '05+ era are "likely" to overtake them for "all time" in the end? I'm sure you know that those top 20s aren't on an equal playing field, but I'm also sure that you don't care. I'm sure Cheechoo, Heatley, Marc Savard, Vanek, Lecavalier, etc. have a fine chance at passing guys like Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Gilmour, Oates, Selanne, etc on the all-time lists once all the career value is reckoned.

But I think Messier, Hull, and Fedorov are the only players to ever beat Gretzky for the Hart in a year where Gretzky won the scoring title (mind you, there are 11 years where others had a chance to make such a claim). Think about that one for a moment.
He wasn't an elite scored for the overwhelming majority of his career. Period. Not even close and he didn't accomplish anywhere near as much beyond the 3 seasons that Coffey was on the team.

Holik ordered him at least twice in his late 20's and was regularly producing around as much as Fedorov, so it easily could have been more. Comparable at the very least. Elite players contribute a lot more than Holik in their late 20's. Call me crazy, but I just don't think that Bobby Holik seasons that are better than many of a players 10 best seasons make that player one of the best players to ever play in the NHL.

Gretzky Andy Lemieux were ing the twilight of their careers and barely played thought half of Fedorov's career.

How about looking at things from a different perspective? Look at his entire 18 year career and then delete 1994. What chance is there of a player with that remaining 17 year career being elected to the HoF?.

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11-07-2012, 08:05 PM
  #198
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Was he a top-20 forward over the past 30 years? Maybe.
Was he a top-20 player over the past 30 years? Nope.
Was he a top-20 forward of all time? Hell no.
Was he a top-20 player of all time? No, not even close.

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11-07-2012, 08:12 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
He wasn't an elite scored for the overwhelming majority of his career. Period. Not even close and he didn't accomplish anywhere near as much beyond the 3 seasons that Coffey was on the team.

Holik ordered him at least twice in his late 20's and was regularly producing around as much as Fedorov, so it easily could have been more. Comparable at the very least. Elite players contribute a lot more than Holik in their late 20's. Call me crazy, but I just don't think that Bobby Holik seasons that are better than many of a players 10 best seasons make that player one of the best players to ever play in the NHL.

Gretzky Andy Lemieux were ing the twilight of their careers and barely played thought half of Fedorov's career.

How about looking at things from a different perspective? Look at his entire 18 year career and then delete 1994. What chance is there of a player with that remaining 17 year career being elected to the HoF?.
I really don't know if you're trolling, or what. Gretzky got 2 Art Rosses and 4 post-season all-star nominations during their 8 seasons of overlap. Lemieux had 4 of the remaining 6 Art Rosses, 4 post-season all-star nominations, and 2 Harts+Pearsons during those same 8 years, lol. No, sorry, I meant LOL! Furthermore, Holik never produced offensively like Fedorov. Aggregate point totals surpassed Fedorov because of games missed due to injury, and that's it. How many 30+ goal seasons does Holik have again? I almost ran out of fingers counting Fedorov's, lol. "Comparable" indeed. Jesus.

I've got a counter-proposal for the bolded area there. How about YOU go through the effort to do a LOT more research, watch a lot of video as well if possible, come back and convince anyone that you actually know what you're talking about, and I'll gladly oblige you. I think this thread will be long closed and forgotten by that time, though, judging by our exchange so far.

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11-07-2012, 08:45 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Datsyuk 87-87-97-97 is comparable to Ovechkin's prime? Fedorov's 94-95-96 years are closer to Lafleur's best than Datsyuk's best are to Ovechkin's in terms of raw points. And Ovechkin is better at the other things.
I think you misread my post. I said Daniel Sedin and Datsyuk were comparable on offense. I don't see how Fedorovs 94-96 seasons are close. If you look at them in terms of raw points then yes their close but Lafluer won scoring titles in his three best seasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Before this gets messy, let it be known that I have Lafleur clearly ahead of both Yzerman AND Fedorov. And the only reason I can even put Yzerman ahead of Fedorov is because of the 80s scoring bonus that Yzerman gets before he built a little more balance into his game. I still think an unleashed Fedorov could have slaughtered the late 80s/early 90s even more than Yzerman, but I can't rank Fedorov above him based on hypotheticals. What they did vs their peers is certainly more important, imo.
If you put Fedorov in the 80s he probably would have scored a lot of points. I agree hecmight have pit up more points than Yzerman. But the same could be said for many players from different eras. I think we're in agreement on those points.
Quote:
Point being that, I, personally, have a larger gap between Lafleur and Yzerman than I do Yzerman and Fedorov, and it's because of just how closely they (Yzerman/Fedorov) compare over more than a decade of career overlap.
Although it would be hard for me to have similar rankings I can understand what your saying. The main reason Lafluer cam into this was because someone said Fedorov > Lafluer which it looks like we both agree Wouk be really tough to prove

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