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Sergei Fedorov

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11-07-2012, 07:59 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
If you put Fedorov in the 80s he probably would have scored a lot of points. I agree hecmight have pit up more points than Yzerman. But the same could be said for many players from different eras. I think we're in agreement on those points. Although it would be hard for me to have similar rankings I can understand what your saying. The main reason Lafluer cam into this was because someone said Fedorov > Lafluer which it looks like we both agree Wouk be really tough to prove
Um... yeah. Tough, as in impossible, imo. Too much career value and excellence relative to his peers under microscopes of varied focal lengths. But I think Yzerman >> Fedorov (where >> implies any great divide, be it 80 arbitrary spots on an all-time ranking list, a skills/2-way play comparison, or whatever) is almost equally ludicrous.

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11-07-2012, 08:44 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Um... yeah. Tough, as in impossible, imo. Too much career value and excellence relative to his peers under microscopes of varied focal lengths. But I think Yzerman >> Fedorov (where >> implies any great divide, be it 80 arbitrary spots on an all-time ranking list, a skills/2-way play comparison, or whatever) is almost equally ludicrous.
Perhaps 80 spots is a bit extreme. Maybe it's more me overrating Yzerman than under rating Fedorov. I could see Yzerman ranked anywhere from top 20 to top 40. I could see, although it would be tough, having Fedorov as high as 70ish and as low as around 100. I think ~40 spots is the absolute smallest distance I could see ranking them.

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11-07-2012, 09:32 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
Perhaps 80 spots is a bit extreme. Maybe it's more me overrating Yzerman than under rating Fedorov. I could see Yzerman ranked anywhere from top 20 to top 40. I could see, although it would be tough, having Fedorov as high as 70ish and as low as around 100. I think ~40 spots is the absolute smallest distance I could see ranking them.
Hey, either way I'm just glad we're having this kind of exchange about it. I'm certainly not going to begrudge a ~40 spot divide. I'm hardly even prepared to argue at length as to whether 30 or 50 would be a step in the "right direction", for example. There are lots of great players in history, so anywhere in the top 100 is something special as it is. Heck, once goalies are considered, there's not as much room left as one might think. But as much as I give Yzerman kudos for his high-flying offense in the 80s, his longevity/consistency, guts, toughness, and dedication, these guys aren't separated by that much age-wise, and like I said before, there's over a decade of playing hockey together under the same conditions where Yzerman didn't look that much better than Fedorov (and I would argue, in fact, that there are periods in the middle where Fedorov looked better than Yzerman, so it's not even a consistent decade of Yzerman's "second fiddle" or anything).

It's very much a Sakic/Forsberg comparison for me (Sakic with the head start in a higher scoring era, Forsberg shooting past to his peak during their time together, Sakic having the career numbers and intangibles advantage at the end of everything and never being considered on a distinctly lower level at any time along the way), and I don't think anyone has them separated by many spots on their list.

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11-07-2012, 09:50 PM
  #204
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All time favorite player and happy to see this thread

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11-07-2012, 11:21 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by KingForsberg View Post
I think you misread my post. I said Daniel Sedin and Datsyuk were comparable on offense.
That would be accurate. Looking at scoring lists, probably a better comparison based on style, as well as where they ranked in scoring over their career would be Datsyuk v. Kovalchuk; Datsyuk is jut inside the top ten in scoring during his career, Kovalchuk is top five.

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I don't see how Fedorovs 94-96 seasons are close. If you look at them in terms of raw points then yes their close but Lafluer won scoring titles in his three best seasons.
If you put Fedorov in the 80s he probably would have scored a lot of points. I agree hecmight have pit up more points than Yzerman. But the same could be said for many players from different eras. I think we're in agreement on those points. Although it would be hard for me to have similar rankings I can understand what your saying. The main reason Lafluer cam into this was because someone said Fedorov > Lafluer which it looks like we both agree Wouk be really tough to prove
Lafleur dominated during a period of time when there were just as many teams as there are now (if you include the WHA) but talent distribution was far more lopsided. He enjoyed the benefits of playing on what is arguably the most stacked team ever, against team full of players that would be in the AHL today. He was a dominant player and a great player, one of the best of his era. But if you were to have the choice between a prime Lafleur or a prime Fedorov - a they actually were, not adjusting their conditioning to the era or assuming their talent level follows the league's continued increase - the answer is clearly Fedorov.

I don't know what more I can say other than that a very good NHL player is almost always better than the best player outside the NHL.

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11-08-2012, 12:14 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Was he a top-20 forward over the past 30 years? Maybe.
Was he a top-20 player over the past 30 years? Nope.
Was he a top-20 forward of all time? Hell no.
Was he a top-20 player of all time? No, not even close.
I'm inclined to a degree. A lot is made of guys who could play two-way really well and had good playoff stats and it has validity (it's why Ted Kennedy was a great player than, say, Frank Mahovlich) but while a better goal scorer than either Forsberg or Trottier, what sets Fedorov apart from those two in a negative way is that he could be a bit non-committal, non-physical and sulky when he felt he wasn't getting his ice time or the money from management. Didn't always stick to being a team player.

Docks him a few points in my books but while not a first ballot HOF'er to me (if he is, how wasn't Shanahan? Not the same two-way presence but equal point producer considering he played the tougher scoring position of the wing, more rugged and a better clutch goal scorer). Fedorov's game dipped post-lockout but it's ok since he was about 36 or 37 by then. Hard to believe he will be 44 next year.

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11-08-2012, 12:51 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Dude, just give this up. Yzerman never won a Cup before Fedorov. Fedorov must obviously be the better leader, since he led most of their successful post seasons in scoring while also playing a top checking role. I don't actually believe that, but see what I did there? You should, because you've become a pro at it in this thread.



You're going to either have to check that again, or explain your definition of "regularly". They were neck and neck in points thanks to Fedorov missing a lot more games than Holik for a stretch there, but is that really when you're talking about? lol. Hurrrrrr.... durrrr.....



Well, what can I say. There isn't a single player in the post '05 lockout that even comes close to the level of Gretzky, Lemieux, or Jagr for starters, so are we handicapping the remaining 17? Or should we explore the all-time rankings of the "regulars" from the top 20 lists of the 80s and 90s and prognosticate which guys from the '05+ era are "likely" to overtake them for "all time" in the end? I'm sure you know that those top 20s aren't on an equal playing field, but I'm also sure that you don't care. I'm sure Cheechoo, Heatley, Marc Savard, Vanek, Lecavalier, etc. have a fine chance at passing guys like Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Gilmour, Oates, Selanne, etc on the all-time lists once all the career value is reckoned.

But I think Messier, Hull, and Fedorov are the only players to ever beat Gretzky for the Hart in a year where Gretzky won the scoring title (mind you, there are 11 years where others had a chance to make such a claim). Think about that one for a moment.
Good points. Some years of Fedorov's scoring finishes has to be taken with a context. To be top-10 in scoring he would have had to beat the guys you just listed and more. 90's was insanely stacked on good forwards. Selanne/Kariya were given to challenge for scoring titles every year. Lindros/Jagr/Forsberg/Sakic/Oates etc. Id go on a limb and say that if Fedorov would have had the same caliber of competition Datsuyk had he would have more top-10 scoring titles.

This is all hypothetical of course...

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11-08-2012, 12:54 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
I'm inclined to a degree. A lot is made of guys who could play two-way really well and had good playoff stats and it has validity (it's why Ted Kennedy was a great player than, say, Frank Mahovlich) but while a better goal scorer than either Forsberg or Trottier, what sets Fedorov apart from those two in a negative way is that he could be a bit non-committal, non-physical and sulky when he felt he wasn't getting his ice time or the money from management. Didn't always stick to being a team player.
This is absolutely untrue. The "money" rep happened first after his holdout in 1997, which occurred because Fedorov was playing high-end hockey on a cheap, long-term deal. It wasn't until after Karmanos threw the whole $28m year into it that it became "Fedorov wants the money". His 2003 contract negotiations should be proof enough that he wasn't jut out to make a buck. Furthermore, the injuries he played through and his willingness to play any position on the ice at any given time speak very highly of him as a team player.

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Docks him a few points in my books but while not a first ballot HOF'er to me (if he is, how wasn't Shanahan? Not the same two-way presence but equal point producer considering he played the tougher scoring position of the wing, more rugged and a better clutch goal scorer). Fedorov's game dipped post-lockout but it's ok since he was about 36 or 37 by then. Hard to believe he will be 44 next year.
Shanahan is definitely a tier below Fedorov. For one, had Fedorov continued his career GPG and APG until he reached Shanahan's GP (1524), he'd have finished with 590-850-1440. At that point, you're not making the argument of Shanahan (656-698-1354) being the same level player. Fedorov held the OT goal scoring record for what, 10 years? 15 years? Shanahan was not the more clutch scorer.

There is almost zero excuse if Fedorov does not go in next year. Chelios, Makarov and Niedermayer are the only conceivable choices to beat him. Makarov seems to be getting the Ciccarelli treatment, and Niedermayer really only had a couple of years where he was better than "really good" while Fedorov was a dominant center who only had a couple of years where he was "really really dominant".

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11-08-2012, 01:04 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
That would be accurate. Looking at scoring lists, probably a better comparison based on style, as well as where they ranked in scoring over their career would be Datsyuk v. Kovalchuk; Datsyuk is jut inside the top ten in scoring during his career, Kovalchuk is top five.



Lafleur dominated during a period of time when there were just as many teams as there are now (if you include the WHA) but talent distribution was far more lopsided. He enjoyed the benefits of playing on what is arguably the most stacked team ever, against team full of players that would be in the AHL today. He was a dominant player and a great player, one of the best of his era. But if you were to have the choice between a prime Lafleur or a prime Fedorov - a they actually were, not adjusting their conditioning to the era or assuming their talent level follows the league's continued increase - the answer is clearly Fedorov.

I don't know what more I can say other than that a very good NHL player is almost always better than the best player outside the NHL.
IF i get this right you are saying that Fedorov is/was better than Lafleur if you compare them head to head? Like you mean take Lafleur straight from the 70's and Fedorov from the 90's?

That might be true, but there is no value in a comparison like this. We can give credit to this days players and still acknowledge the players from history. By your definition Karlsson is better than Orr and Crosby is better than Gretzky. This kind of judging makes history of the game irrelevant and frankly i think this is a bit easy way to judge players. Easy and disrespectful.

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11-08-2012, 01:12 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Hab-a-maniac View Post
what sets Fedorov apart from those two in a negative way is that he could be a bit non-committal, non-physical and sulky when he felt he wasn't getting his ice time or the money from management. Didn't always stick to being a team player.
Well, let's be fair here. First of all, Joe Sakic did the exact same thing (hold out for more money, which resulted in him signing that offer sheet with the Rangers in '97), but never has that held against him at all. But if you didn't like that, surely you did like when Fedorov donated his entire '98/99 base salary to create a foundation in his name to help Detroit area kids. Probably didn't know that one, huh.

Keep in mind, he actually accepted less money in the end to join Anaheim because of how he felt he was being treated by management in Detroit over the years. He didn't go for more money, he went for less. Knowing that, maybe there is a reason why there were a couple of episodes where he didn't seem willing to toss everything aside and be the best team guy possible. I think he was even slandered publicly as "not a team guy like Yzerman". Bottom line is, though, that right or wrong, he felt like he wasn't being treated like everyone else at a couple of points along the way in Detroit. Also remember that he was defrauded of around $60 million over an 11 year period of his career by that Zada guy (which I don't think he was ever able to recover, despite the court's decision), and who knows how much money issues came up with him over the years. Seems like he had it rougher in this regard than anyone that normally draws character/skill/calibre comparisons.

Heck, people also seem to forget the times when he showed incredible commitment to his team. He actually refused selection to the Olympic team in Italy because he was focused on getting back all the way to 100% healthy with the Blue Jackets (link). Another oft forgotten Fedorov tidbit, when talking about his skills, is that he once clocked the hardest shot in the league at the all-star game - while in his 30s - at 101.5 mph. One of the best skaters, one of the best shots, one of the best 2-way games... he was pretty damn good.

In a 2009 interview, Scotty Bowman recalled a conversation between Gretzky and him: "I talked to Wayne Gretzky about that six or seven years ago and he said to me: 'I couldn't play forward and defence. Mario couldn't do it. Jagr couldn't play defense. But Sergei could. He was a hell of a player'."

That's not tire pumping in the media after a game or series, or the like, either. That's just Wayne Gretzky talking to Scotty Bowman, and us hearing about it years later.


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11-08-2012, 01:21 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
IF i get this right you are saying that Fedorov is/was better than Lafleur if you compare them head to head? Like you mean take Lafleur straight from the 70's and Fedorov from the 90's?

That might be true, but there is no value in a comparison like this. We can give credit to this days players and still acknowledge the players from history. By your definition Karlsson is better than Orr and Crosby is better than Gretzky. This kind of judging makes history of the game irrelevant and frankly i think this is a bit easy way to judge players. Easy and disrespectful.
I disagree with the idea that Karlsson and Crosby would be better, simply because a) Orr dominated the sport offensively, even adjusting for competition he'd still outperform Karlsson, and b) Gretzky succeeded through thinking the game; he wasn't fast or strong, but he knew what was going to happen and how to make things happen offensively - and did it on a level that has never been matched.

And then there is of course the problem. It's generally accepted that players from the 1920s-1940s would not have a chance to make the NHL today. Yet players like Howie Morenz and Joe Malone are considered some of the greatest players ever. By what method do we decide how much weight to put on performance vs. peers as opposed to their likely performance vs. a group of players from any given era, or all eras.

Is Pavel Bure a better goal scorer than Maurice Richard? Bure played in a lower-scoring environment and put up better per-game numbers. Assuming equal average talent level in the league, that should be an easy yes.

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11-08-2012, 01:36 AM
  #212
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I think Yzerman tends to be overrated, at least in the media, relative to Fedorov.

THN's best 60 since '67 had them 54 spots apart (and that's just since expansion), due to Yzerman's lofty #6 rating (say what?) and Fedorov slipping in at #60.

However, there were a couple polls on HoH a few years ago limited to forwards and #13 & #21 in the poll of NHL forwards since WWII and #15 & #30 of NHL all-time forwards. That's more how I would rank them, which since forwards are half of all players, might equate to ~16 and ~30 spot differences, respectively. That seems about right to me.

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11-08-2012, 01:41 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I disagree with the idea that Karlsson and Crosby would be better, simply because a) Orr dominated the sport offensively, even adjusting for competition he'd still outperform Karlsson, and b) Gretzky succeeded through thinking the game; he wasn't fast or strong, but he knew what was going to happen and how to make things happen offensively - and did it on a level that has never been matched.

And then there is of course the problem. It's generally accepted that players from the 1920s-1940s would not have a chance to make the NHL today. Yet players like Howie Morenz and Joe Malone are considered some of the greatest players ever. By what method do we decide how much weight to put on performance vs. peers as opposed to their likely performance vs. a group of players from any given era, or all eras.

Is Pavel Bure a better goal scorer than Maurice Richard? Bure played in a lower-scoring environment and put up better per-game numbers. Assuming equal average talent level in the league, that should be an easy yes.
Bure played in a lower scoring environment? News to me.

Richard played from 1943-44 to 1959-60

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

43-44 4.0
44-45 3.5
45-46 3.3
46-47 3.1
47-48 2.9
48-49 2.7
49-50 2.7
50-51 2.7
51-52 2.6
52-53 2.4
53-54 2.4
54-55 2.5
55-56 2.6
56-57 2.7
57-58 2.8
58-59 2.9
59-60 2.9

Pavel Bure played from 1991-92 through 2002-03

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

91-92 3.5
92-93 3.6
93-94 3.2
94-95 3.0
95-96 3.1
96-97 2.9
97-98 2.6
98-99 2.6
99-00 2.7
00-01 2.7
01-02 2.6
02-03 2.6

The scoring environment was practically identical.

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11-08-2012, 01:45 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, let's be fair here. First of all, Joe Sakic did the exact same thing (hold out for more money, which resulted in him signing that offer sheet with the Rangers in '97), but never has that held against him at all. But if you didn't like that, surely you did like when Fedorov donated his entire '98/99 base salary to create a foundation in his name to help Detroit area kids. Probably didn't know that one, huh.

Keep in mind, he actually accepted less money in the end to join Anaheim because of how he felt he was being treated by management in Detroit over the years. He didn't go for more money, he went for less. Knowing that, maybe there is a reason why there were a couple of episodes where he didn't seem willing to toss everything aside and be the best team guy possible. I think he was even slandered publicly as "not a team guy like Yzerman". Bottom line is, though, that right or wrong, he felt like he wasn't being treated like everyone else at a couple of points along the way in Detroit. Also remember that he was defrauded of around $60 million over an 11 year period of his career by that Zada guy (which I don't think he was ever able to recover, despite the court's decision), and who knows how much money issues came up with him over the years. Seems like he had it rougher in this regard than anyone that normally draws character/skill/calibre comparisons.

Heck, people also seem to forget the times when he showed incredible commitment to his team. He actually refused selection to the Olympic team in Italy because he was focused on getting back all the way to 100% healthy with the Blue Jackets (link). Another oft forgotten Fedorov tidbit, when talking about his skills, is that he once clocked the hardest shot in the league at the all-star game - while in his 30s - at 101.5 mph. One of the best skaters, one of the best shots, one of the best 2-way games... he was pretty damn good.

In a 2009 interview, Scotty Bowman recalled a conversation between Gretzky and him: "I talked to Wayne Gretzky about that six or seven years ago and he said to me: 'I couldn't play forward and defence. Mario couldn't do it. Jagr couldn't play defense. But Sergei could. He was a hell of a player'."

That's not tire pumping in the media after a game or series, or the like, either. That's just Wayne Gretzky talking to Scotty Bowman, and us hearing about it years later.
Is this the same Wayne Gretzky that has about a hundred guys who were "The Best Player I Ever Played Against"?

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11-08-2012, 01:59 AM
  #215
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Is this the same Wayne Gretzky that has about a hundred guys who were "The Best Player I Ever Played Against"?
First of all, list as many examples as you can think of, and see how close we get to 100.

Second of all, Gretzky had a long career that included many international opponents as well. Postgame/series media statements wouldn't be directly applicable anyway, but even still it allows for the logical possibility that a better player could come by multiple times over 20+ years, and if anyone is going to be on record saying something about it, it's going to be the guy that the media is trying to talk to the most.

And lastly, is this really the tangent from all that you replied to that we should explore? Sweet drive by, dude?

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11-08-2012, 02:15 AM
  #216
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Sergei Federov is extremely overrated. I can't believe someone would fathom to place him ahead of Jagr. That's just sad.
Fedorov - 3 Cups
Jagr - 2 Cups

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11-08-2012, 02:53 AM
  #217
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Fedorov - 3 Cups
Jagr - 2 Cups
End of discussion....

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11-08-2012, 04:02 AM
  #218
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Fedorov - 3 Cups
Jagr - 2 Cups
Kris Draper - 4 cups
Mario Lemieux - 2 cups

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11-08-2012, 11:24 AM
  #219
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The facts are simple and true:

Fedorov was considered the Best player in the World in 1993-94 and won the Hart Trophy (Individual Gold) and Lindsay and Selke (No other player in history of the earth has done that in a single season)

(Lemieux would have 63 goals and 138 Points in a 82 game average (Lemieux has NEVER played an 80 game season) when he was healthy enough to play - wouldn't have won the Rocket Award that season, and maybe the Art Ross (50/50 or less).

Fedorov was the Best in 1994. Wayne Gretzky & Steve Yzerman have said they believe Feds "is the most talented player they've ever seen". From the Best of the Best.

Fedorov also played as a defenseman to shut down guys like Forsberg and Gretzky when he was in his prime in the playoffs. Fedorov also led the NHL in plus/minus in the 1990's with 221+, talk about Legendary.

Guys like Steve Yzerman have also said Fedorov is the best skater they've ever seen, and the among the fastest, if not the fastest (especially Big ice).

He won the hardest shot competition and is also considered one of the greatest playoff performers in NHL history.

He also has the single season NHL record of $28 million, payed in a 6 month span where he lead the playoffs in goals in '98 and to the Stanley Cup (second in a row).

Oh yeah can anyone refute the fact Fedorov beat Jagr and Forsberg in Best on Best Olympics points per a game? and Canada Cup/World points per a game and goals per a game, all this while playing as a Soviet style Defensive Center - Looks like when the competition was Best on Best, Fedorov was better

Canada just dislikes Russians to the max (except Wayne Gretzky, who is of part Russian and Belarusian descent ("White Russia") lol


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11-08-2012, 11:36 AM
  #220
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The facts are simple and true:

Fedorov was considered the Best player in the World in 1993-94 and won the Hart Trophy (Individual Gold) and Lindsay and Selke (No other player in history of the earth has done that in a single season)

(Lemieux had a 63 goals and a 138 Points in a 82 game average (Lemieux has NEVER played an 80 game season) when he was healthy enough to play - wouldn't have won the Rocket Awardthat season and maybe Art Ross (50/50 or less)

Fedorov was the Best in 1994 and Wayne Gretzky & Steve Yzerman has said they believe Fedorov "is the most talented player they've ever seen". From the Best of the Best.

Fedorov played as a defenseman to shut down guys like Forsberg and Gretzky when he was in his prime. Fedorov also led the NHL is plus/minus in the 1990's with 221+, talk about Legendary.

Guys like Steve Yzerman have also said Fedorov is the best skater they've ever seen and also the among the fastest, if not the fastest (especially Big ice)

He won the hardest shot comparison and is also considered one of the greatest playoff performers in NHL history.

He also has the single season NHL record of $28 million payed in a 6 month span where he lead the playoffs in goals in '98 and to the Stanley Cup second in a row.

Oh yeah can anyone refute the fact Fedorov beat Jagr and Forsberg in Best on Best Olympics points per a game and Canada Cup/World points per a game and goals per a game, all this while playing as an Soviet style Defensive Center - Looks like when the competition was Best on Best, Fedorov was better

Canada just dislikes Russians to the max (except Wayne Gretzky who is of part Russian and Belarusian descent ("White Russia") lol
Lots of really good points in the bulk of the post, but dude, as for the bolded part, don't go there. I'm a Nova Scotia-born holder of a Canadian passport, and one of Fedorov's biggest supporters here.

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11-08-2012, 11:42 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
First of all, list as many examples as you can think of, and see how close we get to 100.

Second of all, Gretzky had a long career that included many international opponents as well. Postgame/series media statements wouldn't be directly applicable anyway, but even still it allows for the logical possibility that a better player could come by multiple times over 20+ years, and if anyone is going to be on record saying something about it, it's going to be the guy that the media is trying to talk to the most.

And lastly, is this really the tangent from all that you replied to that we should explore? Sweet drive by, dude?
The point is you're cherry picking a quote from a guy who has a different name to give every time he's asked who the best player he ever played against was. Why should you give any more credence to Gretzky saying "Federov" than you would any of the many others he's said over time? Other than the fact that you're biased in favor of Federov that is? If you're going to use anecdotal statements as evidence you should at very least be sure the source of that anecdotal statement hasn't made statements that contradict the statement you're cherry picking.


Last edited by SaintPatrick33: 11-08-2012 at 12:14 PM.
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11-08-2012, 12:10 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Lots of really good points in the bulk of the post, but dude, as for the bolded part, don't go there. I'm a Nova Scotia-born holder of a Canadian passport, and one of Fedorov's biggest supporters here.
I don't mean everyone but let's face facts lots of Canadians hate Ovechkin because of how good he is/was. All my friends from late teens to late twenties hate him, when you ask why? They'll say he sucks and cocky. Ovie is one of the most genuine and nicest guys around. I'm Canadian too just my perspective on the last part

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11-08-2012, 01:37 PM
  #223
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Oh yeah can anyone refute the fact Fedorov beat Jagr and Forsberg in Best on Best Olympics points per a game? and Canada Cup/World points per a game and goals per a game, all this while playing as a Soviet style Defensive Center - Looks like when the competition was Best on Best, Fedorov was better
Fedorov generally played on stronger teams with better linemates than Jagr at least.

How about the 2010 WCs when Czechs beat Russia in gold medal game? The only NHLers who played for Czechs were Jagr, Vokoun and Voracek. The Russians had Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Semin, Fedorov, Afinogenov, Gonchar, Frolov, etc.

I don't remember Russia being much of a factor in the best on best WC in 2005, when Jagr led the Czechs to gold. Russia again had a strong roster: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Fedorov, Kozlov, Afinogenov, Semin, Markov, Yashin, etc.

What has been Russia's biggest international achievement with Fedorov? Beating some undermanned team at the WCs? Do you really think Czech or Sweden would have rather had Fedorov than Jagr/Forsberg in most tournaments?

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11-08-2012, 01:52 PM
  #224
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I really don't know if you're trolling, or what.
He had 2 - 2.5 seasons out of 18 year career near (not even right at) the top of the league. Otherwise, he started with a handful a handful of 80-ish point seasons when they weren't that impressive and then capped it off by cracking the 70 point mark once is his last 11 seasons. You're saying that he's one of the very best who've ever played in the NHL and comparing him to players with much better career resumes... and you think that my position is indefensible?

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Gretzky got 2 Art Rosses and 4 post-season all-star nominations during their 8 seasons of overlap. Lemieux had 4 of the remaining 6 Art Rosses, 4 post-season all-star nominations, and 2 Harts+Pearsons during those same 8 years, lol.
The last season that either of them won a major award, Fedorov was 26 years old. Even then, I wasn't necessarily asking for Hart's & Art's... just some regular top-10 finishes in any offensive category beyond his 1994 season.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
No, sorry, I meant LOL! Furthermore, Holik never produced offensively like Fedorov. Aggregate point totals surpassed Fedorov because of games missed due to injury, and that's it. How many 30+ goal seasons does Holik have again? I almost ran out of fingers counting Fedorov's, lol. "Comparable" indeed. Jesus.
Holik
97 = 82-23-62
98 = 82-29-65
99 = 78-27-64

Fedorov
97 = 74-30-63
98 = Injured (21 gp)
99 = 77-26-63
00 = 68-27-62

Yeah, that doesn't look comparable at all. At it's not like I had to cherry pick to find 60 point seasons from Fedorov... his career typically consisted of 60 point seasons.

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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I've got a counter-proposal for the bolded area there. How about YOU go through the effort to do a LOT more research, watch a lot of video as well if possible, come back and convince anyone that you actually know what you're talking about, and I'll gladly oblige you. I think this thread will be long closed and forgotten by that time, though, judging by our exchange so far.
Ok, here's what a comparable looks like for Fedorov without 1994:

Fedorov = 107, 87, 86, 83, 79, 69, 68, 65, 63, 63, 62, 50, 44, 42, 41
Brind'Amr = 97, 87, 86, 82, 77, 74, 74, 70, 61, 59, 56, 55, 51, 51, 49

Fedorov: 1 x Selke, 0 All-Star Teams.
Brind'Amr: 2 x Selke, 0 All-Star Teams.

1 season gone and he looks exactly like a player that nobody is putting in a best players who've ever played the game list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hey, either way I'm just glad we're having this kind of exchange about it. I'm certainly not going to begrudge a ~40 spot divide. I'm hardly even prepared to argue at length as to whether 30 or 50 would be a step in the "right direction", for example. There are lots of great players in history, so anywhere in the top 100 is something special as it is. Heck, once goalies are considered, there's not as much room left as one might think. But as much as I give Yzerman kudos for his high-flying offense in the 80s, his longevity/consistency, guts, toughness, and dedication, these guys aren't separated by that much age-wise, and like I said before, there's over a decade of playing hockey together under the same conditions where Yzerman didn't look that much better than Fedorov (and I would argue, in fact, that there are periods in the middle where Fedorov looked better than Yzerman, so it's not even a consistent decade of Yzerman's "second fiddle" or anything).

It's very much a Sakic/Forsberg comparison for me (Sakic with the head start in a higher scoring era, Forsberg shooting past to his peak during their time together, Sakic having the career numbers and intangibles advantage at the end of everything and never being considered on a distinctly lower level at any time along the way), and I don't think anyone has them separated by many spots on their list.
The other 3 players had much more impressive and consistent careers than Fedorov, even despite Forsberg's injury shortened tenure in the NHL.


Yzerman
Top-10 Pts x 6 = 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
Top-10 G x 6 = 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6
Top-10 PPG x 7 = 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Awards: Lindsay, Smythe, Selke, Masteron

Sakic
Top-10 Pts x 10 = 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10
Top-10 G x 5 = 2, 5, 6, 6, 10
Top-10 PPG x 9 = 2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8
Awards: Hart, Lindsay, Smythe, Byng

Forsberg
Top-10 Pts x 5 = 1, 2, 4, 5, 9
Top-10 G x 0 =
Top-10 PPG x 8 = 1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9
Awards: Hart, Art, Calder

Fedorov
Top-10 Pts x 2 = 2, 10
Top-10 G x 1 = 3
Top-10 PPG x 3 = 4, 7, 9
Awards: Hart, Lindsay, Selke x2

And once again, Fedorov's career without 1993-94:
Top-10 Pts x 1 = 10
Top-10 G x 0 =
Top-10 PPG x 2 = 7, 9
Awards: Selke


Last edited by trentmccleary: 11-08-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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11-08-2012, 03:07 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Yzerman
Top-10 Pts x 6 = 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 10
Top-10 G x 6 = 2, 2, 3, 6, 6, 6
Top-10 PPG x 7 = 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9
Awards: Lindsay, Smythe, Selke, Masteron

Sakic
Top-10 Pts x 10 = 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6, 8, 10
Top-10 G x 5 = 2, 5, 6, 6, 10
Top-10 PPG x 9 = 2, 3, 3, 5, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8
Awards: Hart, Lindsay, Smythe, Byng

Forsberg
Top-10 Pts x 4 = 2, 4, 5, 9
Top-10 G x 0 =
Top-10 PPG x 8 = 1, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 6, 9
Awards: Hart, Art, Calder

Fedorov
Top-10 Pts x 2 = 2, 10
Top-10 G x 1 = 3
Top-10 PPG x 3 = 4, 7, 9
Awards: Hart, Lindsay, Selke x2

And once again, Fedorov's career without 1993-94:
Top-10 Pts x 1 = 10
Top-10 G x 0 =
Top-10 PPG x 2 = 7, 9
Awards: Selke
Am i missing something or did you leave out Forsberg's 1st finish in his art year?

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