Question from someone not very familiar with hhof operations: There doesn't have to be 4 inductees every year does there? If not, when was the last year there were less than 4?
Question from someone not very familiar with hhof operations: There doesn't have to be 4 inductees every year does there? If not, when was the last year there were less than 4?
2010 had only Dino Ciccarelli voted in. Yes, Angela James and Cammi Granato were elected, but the women nominees are not counted towards the 4 men's nominees; a maximum of 2 women are allowed each year.
And to correct the fist post, the limit of 4 is only for players; builders have their own limit, 2 (shared between them and officials).
Both in 2010 and 2011 I have predicted there won't be four inductions but there has been, so I don't want to talk about those who were passed at least once.
Niedermayer and Chelios will get in during their 1st year of eligibility.
2010 had only Dino Ciccarelli voted in. Yes, Angela James and Cammi Granato were elected, but the women nominees are not counted towards the 4 men's nominees; a maximum of 2 women are allowed each year.
And to correct the fist post, the limit of 4 is only for players; builders have their own limit, 2 (shared between them and officials).
Are you telling me that Gary Roberts or Guerin or Brind'Amour or Andrechyuk were "average" or even decent? No, they were all pretty great players...okay maybe Andrechyuk/Roberts are debatable since they was never really elite all-stars unlike the others who all were at some point for multiple seasons. Are you saying that Lindros and Fleury weren't unique players in terms of what they did (with their size and style of play)?
But at the same time, the longetivity and career production longetivity of Andrechyuk or Guerin or Brind'Amour is damn impressive and that alone should get them in. You also can't use the 4 per year argument because the amount of stars that retire per year fluctuates of course. I think it's ridiculous that there's a set number. There should be a 4 minimum and 6 or 7 maximum because in some years you have more than that worthy of getting in but they never do get in because they keep getting pushed back or forgotten (Makarov being a good case of that).
Let's not forget that it's the hall of fame, all those players above were "famous" for long periods of time and are notable marks in NHL history.
Bill Guerin never even reached 70 points in a season. If longetivity is enough to get Roberts and Guerin in, then Ray Whitney should be a lock and I don't know about that...
And a long term suspension because of drug, alcohol, etc, etc. He'll never get in the HOF.
The Hall just inducted Ciccarelli (spent a night in jail for an on-ice incident), Gilmour (caught up in accusations of sex with a minor) and Belfour (spent his final years as a drunken, sloppy mess). Black marks don't seem to keep guys out.
Also, Fleury's substance issues are clearly tied to the Graham James sex abuse scandal, which was front and center in the hockey world for a time. He has owned his choices and become an advocate for sex abuse victims -- look at his Twitter feed this week, all he does anymore is work to put a face on the issue -- as well as Native communities. Of the players listed above, Fluery has actually written an epilogue to his mistakes, showing us a guy who turned it around in time to do a lot of good for the game.
Unfortunately, all that doesn't mean he gets credit for the years of his career that were frittered away. His overall resume is a little weak for my taste, especially after his early 20s. But of the group of "maybe" players we're discussing, he's pretty close to the top, so it's not inconceivable he could get in someday.
What would be REALLY interesting is if he stays on the right track as a reformer of child safety and starts getting consideration as a builder...
The Hall just inducted Ciccarelli (spent a night in jail for an on-ice incident), Gilmour (caught up in accusations of sex with a minor) and Belfour (spent his final years as a drunken, sloppy mess). Black marks don't seem to keep guys out.
Also, Fleury's substance issues are clearly tied to the Graham James sex abuse scandal, which was front and center in the hockey world for a time. He has owned his choices and become an advocate for sex abuse victims -- look at his Twitter feed this week, all he does anymore is work to put a face on the issue -- as well as Native communities. Of the players listed above, Fluery has actually written an epilogue to his mistakes, showing us a guy who turned it around in time to do a lot of good for the game.
Unfortunately, all that doesn't mean he gets credit for the years of his career that were frittered away. His overall resume is a little weak for my taste, especially after his early 20s. But of the group of "maybe" players we're discussing, he's pretty close to the top, so it's not inconceivable he could get in someday.
What would be REALLY interesting is if he stays on the right track as a reformer of child safety and starts getting consideration as a builder...
None of the guys you mentioned had near the level of notoriety as Fleury. He was kicked out of the league for crying out loud. He won't make it.
Scoring 600 goals, while finishing in the top ten in goals only twice (and only once for GPG), and only one top-ten point finish; that is the mark of a compiler. Andreychuk was never an elite player and does not belong in the HHOF. Ciccarelli only had two top-ten goals seasons, but he also had two 100-point years - both top-ten in the NHL. Not to mention that Ciccarelli scored about 1 PPG while Andreychuk was well below. Mike Gartner had five top-ten finishes in goals, as well as scoring 30+ in his first 15 seasons and in 17 of his 19 total. Even if he cores the minimum - 30 - in those seasons, he still hits 510 in those 17 seasons. Andreychuk only managed 30 goals nine times.
You do realize that most players don`t even play for nine years, let alone "only" scoring 30 goals in nine seasons, right? Longevity in the league is certainly something to consider, and if Cicarelli is in, there is no way Andreychuk shouldn't be.
Are you telling me that Gary Roberts or Guerin or Brind'Amour or Andrechyuk were "average" or even decent? No,
Good that you answered your own question correctly. I can't help but notice the word "average" is in quotations marks as if someone called these players "average" but the only unmodified use of "average" in this thread is what I've quoted above. So, it's good that we established that that never happened with this little self Q&A session.
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany
You also can't use the 4 per year argument because the amount of stars that retire per year fluctuates of course.
I think you can, because those are the rules.
Now I'll just take a chance here and maybe I'm wrong (if I'm not, you might make it a point to make me wrong, but at least you'll learn in the process and I'll call it a win)...but I would guess that you only think these "very good" players were "great" (like Guerin and Andreychuk and Roberts) because a) the amount of stats they accumulated and/or b) they happened to play for some portion of your life time.
I say this because, you don't seem terribly gung-ho about say, Herb Cain or Cecil Dillon for instance...one might assume (incorrectly perhaps?) that because there aren't enough commas in their respective fourth columns, they don't receive adequate recognition...
Guerin never had a 70 point season? My mistake but he for sure was one of the best American fwds of the 90s/00s (up there in that Amonte, Roenick, Weight, Modano, Tkachuk, Leclair group) and he was pretty dominant and also a good goal scorer. I wouldn't mind at all if he got in. Gary Roberts was never really a 1st liner unlike Guerin (and I guess you can say the same for Whitney excluding Phx). I don't see Andrechyuk as a star though his career totals are pretty damn good but he was never really a star unlike Guerin. Guerin had like twice as many All Star game appearances too not that that should ever be used as a criteria but just saying my point that the guy was an NHL star for a decent length of time which should be the main criteria for getting in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus3007
None of the guys you mentioned had near the level of notoriety as Fleury. He was kicked out of the league for crying out loud. He won't make it.
He didn't get kicked out for doing steroids ffs and his influence on hockey is probably greater than many of the guys already in there. Also who was the best small player of all time in hockey? Fleury. I guess you can say Henri Richard or Ted Lindsay or Cournoyer who might have been better at their time relative to other players but in terms of pure skill it has to be Fleury and he was the first one to do it in the tougher dead puck 90s.
You do realize that most players don`t even play for nine years, let alone "only" scoring 30 goals in nine seasons, right? Longevity in the league is certainly something to consider, and if Cicarelli is in, there is no way Andreychuk shouldn't be.
If Edgar Laprade is in, there's no way Ryan Kesler shouldn't be.
Chelios, Niedermayer, Andreychuk and Shanahan are my choices to make the HHOF in 2013.
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Exhibit A as to how hockey doesn't matter on ESPN:
Last night an ESPN program was discussing how the Detroit Pistons needed a hero citing the heroes on the Detroit Tigers, Detroit Lions and no mention of the Detroit Red Wings. All this despite the Red Wings probably being the most succesful team in Detroit right now.
I see you have conveniently left out the first 9 years of his career. You know, the best ones. I don`t see how adjusting from being a scorer in one`s prime to being a role player as a veteran is a negative. The dude played for over 20 years. Over 600 career goals, almost 700 career assists. Those numbers alone scream HOF.
Andreychuk's top 20 goal and point finishes
goals: 4, 9, 12, 17, 18
points: 9, 16
Legendary! Those finishes almost put Brad Boyes, Matt Moulson, and Johnathan Cheechoo to shame. And of those only the 12, 16 and 17 place finishes were in Buffalo, so much for "the best ones."
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuietCompany
Guerin never had a 70 point season? My mistake but he for sure was one of the best American fwds of the 90s/00s (up there in that Amonte, Roenick, Weight, Modano, Tkachuk, Leclair group) and he was pretty dominant and also a good goal scorer. I wouldn't mind at all if he got in. Gary Roberts was never really a 1st liner unlike Guerin (and I guess you can say the same for Whitney excluding Phx). I don't see Andrechyuk as a star though his career totals are pretty damn good but he was never really a star unlike Guerin. Guerin had like twice as many All Star game appearances too not that that should ever be used as a criteria but just saying my point that the guy was an NHL star for a decent length of time which should be the main criteria for getting in.
If Guerin get's in they'll have to change the name of the Hall of Fame, because there was nothing famed about his career. And he was clearly not in the Roenick, Modano, Tkachuk, Leclair tier.
I can't believe people are suggesting that Roenick, Tkachuk, Guerin and Naslund should be in. Unbelievable what passes for ''hall of fame great" these days.
I can't believe people are suggesting that Roenick, Tkachuk, Guerin and Naslund should be in. Unbelievable what passes for ''hall of fame great" these days.
These are the same people who set arbitrary and imagined criteria for players to make it in, like "1000 is HOF worthy" and argue for guys like Andreychuk, Recchi, and Verbeek.
LeClair was the best LW in the NHL for a period of a few years. Brind'Amour was a pretty good player at C and LW. He was never anywhere near the best at either.
That said...
Chelios, Makarov, Niedermayer, Lindros
Depends on how you define best. Best point producing center? No. Best two way forward in the league? He was in the top 5 at worst for a pretty long chunk of his career, while putting up a very respectable number of points, and a lot more than anybody comparable defensively was putting up.
These are the same people who set arbitrary and imagined criteria for players to make it in, like "1000 is HOF worthy" and argue for guys like Andreychuk, Recchi, and Verbeek.
Recchi does not belong in that group. Just looking at his Top 20 point finishes...
3rd, 4th, 5th, 10th, 12th, 12th, 14th, 19th
...You could combine Andreychuk's and Verbeek's Top 20's and they don't come close to beating that
EDIT: He also has a much better post season AS team voting record
These are the same people who set arbitrary and imagined criteria for players to make it in, like "1000 is HOF worthy" and argue for guys like Andreychuk, Recchi, and Verbeek.
Recchi is getting in the Hall.
3 Cups, 7 All-star game appearances, and over 1500 points makes it a guarantee. Plus his point totals on a yearly basis were generally higher than those fellows you mentioned.
I think a case could be made to waive the waiting period for one of the greatest defensemen to ever play the game...7 time Norris winner Lidstrom. Only Bobby Orr with 8 and Harvey with 7 match that.
I think a case could be made to waive the waiting period for one of the greatest defensemen to ever play the game...7 time Norris winner Lidstrom. Only Bobby Orr with 8 and Harvey with 7 match that.
The HHOF said Gretzky would be the last player to have the waiting period waived for him.
