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Old
11-07-2012, 01:35 PM
  #76
Lonewolfe2015
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I count 13, arguably, including his own. Some like MTL and NJ are arguable as well. I'm not a fan of Plekanec or Zajac, so I gave Stastny the benefit of the doubt.
I'd say 14 with him edging out Mikko Koivu as well, but a lot of people here have some ungodly obsession with the guy.

Stastny being a #1 center on ~50% of the teams isn't good enough to be labeled a #1 center?

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11-07-2012, 01:57 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
Aren't first line centres elite?

Awarding someone a title by default, not by merit isn't logical. Look no further then the Leafs for evidence.

18-20 teams?

Ana - No
Bos - No
Buf - Yes
Cal - Yes
Car - No
Chi - No
Col - I guess? ROR played more minutes in every situation, so you tell me?
CBJ - Yes
Dal - No, I take Jamie Benn every day of the week
Det - No
Edm - Yes, although many would argue RNH above him.
Fla - Yes
LAK - No
Min - No
Mon - Yes
Nsh - Yes
NJD - Yes
NYI - No
NYR - No
Ott - No
Phi- No
Phx - Yes
Pit - No
SJS - No
Stl - Yes
TBL - No
Tor - Yes
Van - No
WSH - No
WPG - Yes

I count 13, arguably, including his own. Some like MTL and NJ are arguable as well. I'm not a fan of Plekanec or Zajac, so I gave Stastny the benefit of the doubt.
I'd say about 10 clearly and then about three that he's on the same level as. Obvioulsy there are a few teams on that list that have two number one centers that are better.

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11-07-2012, 04:48 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I'd say about 10 clearly and then about three that he's on the same level as. Obvioulsy there are a few teams on that list that have two number one centers that are better.
I'd agree with this. And that's the 10-12 elite first line Cs that are out there.

Ignoring the 2011 calendar year, when guys like Kevin Porter, Daniel Winnik and Chuck Kobasew spent significant time on his wings, Stastny is a ~0.92 PPG player. He's not an elite goal scorer, but saying he's a not a 1st line C is just wrong.

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11-07-2012, 07:12 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
1."Stastny isn't overpaid at 6.6 putting up 55"
No one said that, so you can't just make things up and put quotes around it to try and make it look like they did. Nice try though...must be pretty desperate if your making things up.

And it looks like I predicted how some fans would react quite well in my previous post...
Quote:
Of course, I will now be told that our 55 point point grossly overpayed center is not worth a young d-men with top pairing upside, despite everything I just said.
As expect...please go back and read what I wrote about how Avs fans realize Stastny is overpaid, how is value is at its lowest, and also why we won't trade him for what might be considered "fair value" at this point.


Quote:
2."No need for MacArthur, we have 5-6 better options"
Well, lets look at who the Avs would rather have taking into account the chemistry some players have with others and what they bring. Landeskog and Parenteau I would absolutely take over MacArthur. I would probably take Hedjuk as well. Taking into account his grit, Downie as well. Jones? He has chemistry with Stastny and he is a better pure goal scorer than MacArthur. MacArthur might put up more points, but considering Stastny is a playmaker we would probably take someone like Jones over him. So saying 5 option we would rather have than MacArthur is actually pretty realistic. The supposed "upgrade" of MacArthur is certainly not enough to give up much for.

3.
Quote:
"Stastny's production only declined each of the last 3 years because of poor linemates" - See number 2
Might have something to do with adding McGinn, Parenteau, and Downie. Stastny's numbers picked up after we added McGinn.

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4."Stastny is still our number one centre, despite playing less minutes in every situation then Ryan O'Reilly"
Best part of this...ignorance at its best. O'Reilly played a total of 32.72 minutes more than Stastny...Stastny played about two less games...take that into account and their ice time is basically equal. A difference of a few minutes or seconds either way is not nearly enough even for some stat watcher who never watches games, to state that player X was another teams #1 center. I guess Grabovski is now the Leafs #1 center as well. Your a wings fan? Did you know that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk? He played more minutes you know, even taking into account the games Datsyuk missed.


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5."Stastny is still a number one centre, despite him not reaching 60 points in each of the past 2 seasons"
I'm guessing you never learned in school how quotes work. You cannot just quote things you make up, sorry bud. Stastny is still our #1 center, yes. We really don't care if he would not be a #1 center on other teams. We would base our asking price based off how we value him, not other teams. The Avs are not against a wall. If we don't like what we are getting offered, we don't have to move him.


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Some of you guys kill me... Stastny is a definte upgrate at centre for Toronto, but they wouldn't give up that package for it.. I can't imagine any logical and informed Avs fans who would say no to that deal.
They would not give up that package for Stastny...great, who cares. Avs certainly don't. You can't imagine...I can see that. Trust me though, all Avs fans say no to this, and I fancy we, you know, the ones who watch all the Avs games and follow the team, know a little bit more about it than you do.

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Old
11-07-2012, 07:21 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I think we can all agree that Bozak is not just a better player than Staz but more importantly on a better contract, so the Leafs should just keep him and let us hold onto our overpaid 50 point center.
Sounds good to me. A player with the quality of Tyler Bozak should be dealt for a guy with much more talent than Paul Stastny. You Leafers 4 Life should hit up Pens fans for Malkin instead.

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11-07-2012, 07:29 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
This is a really good response that echoes my sentiments to a tee.
Yup, I'm sure.



Quote:
1. Do we just ignore his most recent 2 seasons then? He is most certainly closer to a a ~50pt center than a ~70pt center at this point.
I love how you ignored my lenghy reply to your last post...since you clearly did not read it, I'll point some key things out to make it easier for you.
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
If a team feels like giving us an offer for what Stastny can be, a 70+ point center, we will listen. If you make an offer for a 55 point center...well, that explains why he has not been traded. Don't you think Burke has already inquired about Stastny? Don't you think Dallas and Washington also asked his price, as well as several other teams? For instance, if you think Riberio and Stastny hold similiar value, don't you think Burke would have fixed his center issue by acquiring Stastny for something like a good prospect+a 2nd? Stastny will not be moved when his value is lowest right. Avs fans fully recognize he has been struggling. We also recognize why he has been struggling and what he is capable of. Is what we want more than what a 55 point center is worth? Yes. Would we accept anything less than what we are asking? No. Its not like the Avs are backed against a wall here. Where we have to move Stastny for the best offer we get. If we don't get any offer we like that fills our needs, he won't move, its that simple. Avs fans have stated this repeatedly in Stastny threads but some people refuse to get it. You can claim a package or player is "fair value" for Stastny. That does not meant that package or player will get him.
Is he closer to a 50 point center at this point? Yes. Are the Avs willing to wait and hope he returns to his old form? You bet. Would we accept and offer that might be considered "fair" for a a 50 point center? Not a chance.

Quote:
2. Landeskog? Yes, he's a beast.
Jones? Nope. MacArthur has outperformed him every season of their careers.
McGinn? Nope. MacArthur has outperformed him every season of their careers.
Downie? At best it's a wash. Would give the nod to Downie for physicality but what else does he really do better?
Paranteu? Sure. But also keep in mind he is unproven as an Avalanche, and more importantly not playing with John Tavares.
Hejduk? Um..36 year old, soft winger with declining numbers. Great captain of the Avalanche and veteran presence in a young locker room? Yes. But he definitely brings more value to the Avs then any other team. So no.
For the bulk of this please go read what I responded to with to the other guy...But this part...this confuses me...he holds more value to the Avs than any other team, so no, he is worth less to the Avs than MacArthur? Last I checked the guy you responded to was saying the Avs have 5-6 better options. You have to take into account that Hedjuk has more value to the Avs than any other team when deciding whom the Avs would rather have.


Quote:
4/5. Maybe telling yourself that he's your #1 center while disregarding every statistic makes you feel a little better about his massive contact..
Equal out the games Stastny and Reilly played and I think Stastny might have played a bit more by a few seconds...sorry to burst your bubble. Either way...dumbest argument I have ever seen...Player X is better ,he played more minutes. Hey, Caps fan? Wideman is better than Alzner and Carlson, he played more minutes. Ignorance FTW!!!

Quote:
And that thread is pretty funny. You guys really will go to great lengths to try to brainwash yourselves into believing that Statsny hasn't underperformed to his own fault but rather every other factor possible is causing him to underachieve.
Its not pretty funny...its hilarious. Its amazing what ignorant people who don't know the Avs will try to prove Avs fans wrong...using minutes played as proof of who is better? I never thought I would see someone try something as dumb as that....Stastny has underachieved...through his fault and through others both...but the Avs are still not in a hurry to trade him for some offer that you might think is fair. We will happily keep him. My favorite part honestly, out of all the Stastny threads, are the countless people who ignore that we don't have to move Stastny and will keep him unless we get what we want. Let me guess, your going to ignore this as well.

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11-08-2012, 10:34 AM
  #82
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Come on guys, don't you remember when people explained to us how EJ was at best our 3rd or 4th dman because of minutes and zone starts? Are we really surprised that someone's trying to do a similar thing with Staz?

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11-08-2012, 10:43 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Come on guys, don't you remember when people explained to us how EJ was at best our 3rd or 4th dman because of minutes and zone starts? Are we really surprised that someone's trying to do a similar thing with Staz?
Petry > Smid > Quincey > Hejda > EJ

I do not have a short memory.

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Old
11-08-2012, 11:22 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Come on guys, don't you remember when people explained to us how EJ was at best our 3rd or 4th dman because of minutes and zone starts? Are we really surprised that someone's trying to do a similar thing with Staz?
I honestly dont see the reason toronto fans want stastny so bad at this point in his career. Colorado wont let him go unless an overpayment is paid based on him being a 70-80 point 1c. In this scenario it becomes a lose lose for the leafs when trying to aquire stastny. If toronto over pays for stastny and he comes to toronto and puts up 80 points they still paid in trade value what an 80 point 1 c at his age would be worth which is a lot. Now the other scenario is they over pay for him and he comes to toronto and continues to put up 50 - 60 points when they paid for an 80 point 1C, not only would that enrage the fans but decimate toronto's future in the process without getting the impact player they hoped for. The first scenario is tough but atleast you get what you paid for, the second scenario is what all leaf fans fear and that is why they never offer full value for stastny.

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:01 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Hockey 4 Life View Post
I honestly dont see the reason toronto fans want stastny so bad at this point in his career. Colorado wont let him go unless an overpayment is paid based on him being a 70-80 point 1c. In this scenario it becomes a lose lose for the leafs when trying to aquire stastny. If toronto over pays for stastny and he comes to toronto and puts up 80 points they still paid in trade value what an 80 point 1 c at his age would be worth which is a lot. Now the other scenario is they over pay for him and he comes to toronto and continues to put up 50 - 60 points when they paid for an 80 point 1C, not only would that enrage the fans but decimate toronto's future in the process without getting the impact player they hoped for. The first scenario is tough but atleast you get what you paid for, the second scenario is what all leaf fans fear and that is why they never offer full value for stastny.
And that's a perfectly good reason for the Leafs not to pay what we would want for Staz. But until the time comes were Staz informs the team that he doesn't want to re-sign with the Avs, there's less than no incentive to trade him. Our two young guys are still just kids, having Staz there takes a lot of pressure off of them. Like during Duchene's all star sophomore season, it was Staz who was constantly giving up his linemates to Duchene when his would get hurt. He's still our best playmaker by a wide margin and chips in 20 goals a year. That makes it easier for O'Reilly and Duchene to play well. Plus we finally have enough wingers for all 3 Cmen with Lando, Downie, McGinn, Jones, Parenteau and Hejduk. And Olver waiting for a callup.

So even though the Leafs won't offer "fair" value for the ~80 point two way Center, that Staz would be with Kessel on his wing, the Avs won't take less cause we still have plenty of us for him.

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11-08-2012, 01:02 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
No one said that, so you can't just make things up and put quotes around it to try and make it look like they did. Nice try though...must be pretty desperate if your making things up.

And it looks like I predicted how some fans would react quite well in my previous post... As expect...please go back and read what I wrote about how Avs fans realize Stastny is overpaid, how is value is at its lowest, and also why we won't trade him for what might be considered "fair value" at this point.


Well, lets look at who the Avs would rather have taking into account the chemistry some players have with others and what they bring. Landeskog and Parenteau I would absolutely take over MacArthur. I would probably take Hedjuk as well. Taking into account his grit, Downie as well. Jones? He has chemistry with Stastny and he is a better pure goal scorer than MacArthur. MacArthur might put up more points, but considering Stastny is a playmaker we would probably take someone like Jones over him. So saying 5 option we would rather have than MacArthur is actually pretty realistic. The supposed "upgrade" of MacArthur is certainly not enough to give up much for.

3.
Might have something to do with adding McGinn, Parenteau, and Downie. Stastny's numbers picked up after we added McGinn.


Best part of this...ignorance at its best. O'Reilly played a total of 32.72 minutes more than Stastny...Stastny played about two less games...take that into account and their ice time is basically equal. A difference of a few minutes or seconds either way is not nearly enough even for some stat watcher who never watches games, to state that player X was another teams #1 center. I guess Grabovski is now the Leafs #1 center as well. Your a wings fan? Did you know that Zetterberg is better than Datsyuk? He played more minutes you know, even taking into account the games Datsyuk missed.



I'm guessing you never learned in school how quotes work. You cannot just quote things you make up, sorry bud. Stastny is still our #1 center, yes. We really don't care if he would not be a #1 center on other teams. We would base our asking price based off how we value him, not other teams. The Avs are not against a wall. If we don't like what we are getting offered, we don't have to move him.


They would not give up that package for Stastny...great, who cares. Avs certainly don't. You can't imagine...I can see that. Trust me though, all Avs fans say no to this, and I fancy we, you know, the ones who watch all the Avs games and follow the team, know a little bit more about it than you do.
I'm not even going to address half of what you said because its pointless.. Its clear you struggle with reading comprehension, but a simple skim through one of the many Stastny threads would show that I haven't made anything up. All which I had presented had been posted by an Avs fan at one point or another. You clearly recognize how ridiculous some of these comments are, and thus, try to discredit me as a result.

Datsyuk was eased into the lineup after knee surgery, thats why the minutes were allocated the way they were.. And after a very slow start, Z got hot later in the season. Babcock rode him to ensure Pavel was 100% for the playoffs.

Barring injury, you'd think your number 1 centre sees the most powerplay time, no?

And Jamie McGinn was an AHL call up until being traded to the Avs? Suddenly now, he's a better option then a proven NHL regular whose capable of 20g and 40-50 pts? Thats an interesting theory to say the least.




Out of curiosity, where do you get these numbers from? NHL.com has O'Reilly with more TOI/game- PP, PK, & ES. Thats average, not cumulative. Cumulative O'Reilly played 1581, compared to Stastny's 1487. Did R'OR play more then 94 minutes in the two games Stastny missed? I doubt it?

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Old
11-08-2012, 01:31 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
I'm not even going to address half of what you said because its pointless.. Its clear you struggle with reading comprehension, but a simple skim through one of the many Stastny threads would show that I haven't made anything up. All which I had presented had been posted by an Avs fan at one
point or another. You clearly
recognize how ridiculous some of these comments are, and thus, try to discredit me as a result.


Datsyuk was eased into the lineup
after knee surgery, thats why the minutes were allocated the way
they were.. And after a very slow start, Z got hot later in the season. Babcock rode him to ensure Pavel
was 100% for the playoffs.

Barring injury, you'd think your number 1 centre sees the most
powerplay time, no?


And Jamie McGinn was an AHL call up until being traded to the Avs? Suddenly now, he's a better
option then a proven NHL regular whose capable of 20g and 40-50 pts? Thats an interesting theory to say the least.



Out of curiosity, where do you get these numbers from? NHL.com
has O'Reilly with more TOI/game- PP, PK, & ES. Thats average, not cumulative. Cumulative O'Reilly played 1581, compared to
Stastny's 1487. Did R'OR play
more then 94 minutes in the two games Stastny missed? I doubt it?
Your not addressing it because you know your wrong. Please,
show me the comments, with a link, where Avs fans said those things you quoted.



Yes, I know Datsyuk was injured, but I'm sorry, trying to use ice time to prove who is a #1 center is beyond ridiculous. Tell me, how
many Avs games did you watch this year? Only the ones against the wings? It's a bit pathetic your trying to pretend to know more about our team than every Avs
fan.


McGinn played 61 games with the
Sharks the season he was traded. If your referring to the previous year...so? All players have to make the jump at some point. How does that take away from him??
Edit: your saying I have poor reading comprehension?? I barely mentioned McGinn. I never even said he was better than MacArthur, I mentioned 5 others. Wow... YOU should not be talking about reading comprehension.


I used behindthenet.ca which goes far more in depth, and from my past experience, more accurate than NHL.com.


Last edited by Avs44: 11-08-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 02:16 PM
  #88
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Why does O'Reilly's miniscule TOI advantage make him our #1 center? It's not worth arguing with people that discredit you by saying your post is pointless or you're delusional, just move on and know that what they are saying isn't worth your time.

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11-08-2012, 02:37 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs44 View Post
Your not addressing it because you know your wrong. Please,
show me the comments, with a link, where Avs fans said those things you quoted.



Yes, I know Datsyuk was injured, but I'm sorry, trying to use ice time to prove who is a #1 center is beyond ridiculous. Tell me, how
many Avs games did you watch this year? Only the ones against the wings? It's a bit pathetic your trying to pretend to know more about our team than every Avs
fan.


McGinn played 61 games with the
Sharks the season he was traded. If your referring to the previous year...so? All players have to make the jump at some point. How does that take away from him??
Edit: your saying I have poor reading comprehension?? I barely mentioned McGinn. I never even said he was better than MacArthur, I mentioned 5 others. Wow... YOU should not be talking about reading comprehension.


I used behindthenet.ca which goes far more in depth, and from my past experience, more accurate than NHL.com.
It makes no sense to argue a difference of opinon. HF is hard headed enough that opinions rarely change, it just becomes a pissing contest. I'd prefer to debate tangible evidence.

The wonderful thing about Rogers sports package, is that it allows fans to have their selection of out of market games. I've watched numerous Avs games over the past few years, I couldn't even put a number on it. I played jr against Chris Stewart, I'm a big Matt Duchene fan (although I'm able to be realistic about his current status) and I was very interested to see how Landeskog played in the bigs.

O'Reilly seemed to always get the knod in critical situations, and the statistics back that up. The Avs didn't really have a 1, 2, 3 per say, it seemed to be more by committee. Of that committee, O'Reilly saw the most icetime.

And you're right, you didn't mention McGinn, I was speaking to the overall consensus that seems to be shared by Avs fans in this, and other threads. My apology for taking opinions as a whole, rather then individually.

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Old
11-09-2012, 11:01 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by sparxx87 View Post
It makes no sense to argue a difference of opinon. HF is hard headed enough that opinions rarely change, it just becomes a pissing contest. I'd prefer to debate tangible evidence.

The wonderful thing about Rogers sports package, is that it allows fans to have their selection of out of market games. I've watched numerous Avs games over the past few years, I couldn't even put a number on it. I played jr against Chris Stewart, I'm a big Matt Duchene fan (although I'm able to be realistic about his current status) and I was very interested to see how Landeskog played in the bigs.

O'Reilly seemed to always get the knod in critical situations, and the statistics back that up. The Avs didn't really have a 1, 2, 3 per say, it seemed to be more by committee. Of that committee, O'Reilly saw the most icetime.

And you're right, you didn't mention McGinn, I was speaking to the overall consensus that seems to be shared by Avs fans in this, and other threads. My apology for taking opinions as a whole, rather then individually.
For the majority of last year, O'Reilly and Landeskog were the most consistent, reliable players on the Avs. They developed chemistry early on and it worked throughout the season. You could put the two of them on the ice, in pretty much any situation, and you knew what you were going to get.

By comparision, you knew what you were going to get from Stastny, but his linemates were a huge question mark until McGinn and Jones joined his line with about 20 games left in the season. Would you want to trust Kevin Porter and Chuck Kobasew with significant ice time? What about Daniel Winnik when you need scoring?

Duchene's line was an even bigger question mark. Hejduk wasn't able to keep up with him any more, Mueller looked lost and a step behind everyone else, and the Avs didn't have the depth at wing so he ended up getting moved to LW, or playing with Mark Olver. Then he got hurt and the rest of the season didn't go very well.

Does this explain the 94 minute difference in ice time well enough that people can stop using it as definitive proof that O'Reilly is the Avs' 1C?

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Old
11-09-2012, 01:17 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fearless Leaf View Post
To Avs

- Jake Gardiner
- Joe Colborne
- Clarke MacArthur


To Leafs

- Paul Statsny


Leafs get a solid 2-way C for Kessel and Lupul meanwhile the Avs receive a good offensive supporter for EJ on the back-end along with a potential NHL Center in Colborne and a top 6 tweener.

I think Statsny would be a much better fit for our club with his style of game and play-making ability than Duchene, a high risk offensive C with limited defensive awareness.
While Statsny would be a good player to aquire, I say no deal because Toronto gives up way to much. I don't mind having to include MacArthur, however I'm not ready to include Gardiner and Colborne in any trades.

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11-09-2012, 01:48 PM
  #92
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Who is Paul Statsny?

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Old
11-09-2012, 02:23 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
I think we can all agree that Bozak is not just a better player than Staz but more importantly on a better contract, so the Leafs should just keep him and let us hold onto our overpaid 50 point center.
A lot of people crap on Bozak, but he is somewhere between a 15/15 and 20/35 player, who is decent defensively, can PK if needed and is good on the draw. At $1.5M, he is much better value than what you get from Stastny, even if Stastny is the better player overall.

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11-09-2012, 02:36 PM
  #94
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Can this be closed already? Leafs trying to tell Avs fans what kind of center WE have = pissing match

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11-09-2012, 02:42 PM
  #95
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The flaw with that logic is that if he's not a solution to what you need how good of "deal" he is doesn't matter. Staz is a first line C, who's an exceptional playmaker, faceoff man and good defender who'll chip in 20 goals. His numbers went down for a year, but that's not because his talent disappeared, or he's been exposed, or his age has sapped him of his abilities. Bozak can't cover for our kids because they're aleady both better than him, Staz on the otherhand is still our best center and by a wide margin our best playmaker. So no difference in salary makes up for the fact that Staz is a much better deal for what we need than is Bozak.

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