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11-07-2012, 08:15 PM
  #826
Til the End of Time
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ive spent every free moment of my time reading/listening/learning about the election for the past few weeks, so now that its over and there is no hockey im not sure what to do with the odd moment or two i have throughout the day to check stuff on the internet. im at a bit of a loss.

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11-07-2012, 08:16 PM
  #827
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Hockey returning in December would be fantastic. Christmastime rules and hockey would make it that much better.

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11-07-2012, 08:17 PM
  #828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
You sort of nailed it. This article pretty much piggybacks off what you said...

http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and...own?page=0%2C0

My favorite quote there is..."DESPITE THE MISERY of continuous political defeat, moderate Republicanism—moderate by contemporary standards, at any rate—is not intellectually dead. Quite the opposite, in fact. The movement in recent years has seen a flowering of bright, creative, deeply empirical thinkers, who grapple with liberal arguments rather than retreat into an ideological cocoon, and attempt to re-fashion a program for their party that responds to real-world conditions rather than treat anti-government dogma as an eternal and axiomatic truth."

Republican's need a new identity. There is a large part of the "Republican" party who is just as that paragraph states, and I'm one of them. The Republicans have gone so far off track that I cannot even call myself a Republican anymore. I could give two ***** less about social issues as I think they have no place in legislature. None whatsoever. I vote based on economics, and my vote last night was against Obama and not for Romney because I fear for how much money he can spend when he doesn't have to worry about being re-elected.
this is really what i was getting at in my historical discussion above. from the 1940s to the 1970s the policy frame-work that you've outlined was at the center of the Republican party and that was reflected in the leadership. Look at the classical case of Wendell Willkie (who ran against FDR) and tell me it doesn't remind you of what happened this cycle:
Quote:
A member of the liberal wing of the GOP, he crusaded against those domestic policies of the New Deal that he thought were inefficient and anti-business. Willkie, an internationalist needed the votes of the large isolationist element, so he waffled on the bitterly debated issue of America's role in World War II, losing support from both sides.
there's always been a constant tug-o-war in the GOP. Dewey/Eisenhower vs. Robert Taft in the '50s. Rockefeller vs. Goldwater in the early 60s. i'd venture that the Nixon/Lodge Jr. ticket of '60 was the most moderate of all post-FDR presidential tickets.

i think Nixon made a Faustian bargain to get elected in '68 after the bitter and narrow loss in '60. remember Nixon created the EPA, tried to use price and wage controls to reduce inflation and even tried to create a minimum income for taxpayers. by most accounts he was moderate (talking about domestic economic policy here). But with his "southern strategy" he doomed future generations of "moderate republicans." Goldwater's success against Rockefeller in the primaries and Nixon's courting of the southern democratic element were the proverbial opening of the social conservative gates and now we've reached the point where those described in the TNR article (and JTG) should rightfully feel like the party has abandoned them.

the current GOP has staged the debate as one between big and little government, but post-FDR and post-LBJ this fabled world of "little government" doesn't really exist - making this rhetoric retrogressive and frankly patronizing. we live in a world where there will be government intrusion in the market and i think if the GOP wants to present a coherent message they should look back at the generation of the 40-60s and focus on developing government programs, policies and incentives that focus on aspiration growth. if they believe that income inequality is not a pressing concern and that wealth-redistribution is not in the best interest of the country they better come up with something better than "government = bad."

and i'll note that i've made no statements of endorsement and i've advocated for no political positions. i'm merely interested in talking about the development (rather, derailment) of an institution.


Last edited by Crafton: 11-07-2012 at 08:42 PM.
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Old
11-07-2012, 08:20 PM
  #829
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I spent all day Tuesday "getting out the vote". It was a lot of work. 250+ houses. 80+ phone calls. 7+miles walked.

It was all so worth it.

"Pre-existing conditions" is forever dead. Obamacare is law. I don't have to worry about it any longer.

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11-07-2012, 08:22 PM
  #830
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Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump
Pervert alert. @RepWeiner is back on twitter. All girls under the age of 18, block him immediately.



He deleted a lot of his tweets about Brian Williams, but they were also really funny.

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11-07-2012, 09:15 PM
  #831
Florentino Ariza
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[QUOTE=ColePens;55605999]I don't pick sides prior to the election like some. I don't really understand where it comes from. People are hell-bent on calling out others. Was the stat 80% of minorities voted for Obama? That's the difference right there in the election, my friend. How easy is it to see

Ultimately, you cannot deny how many people do freeload. Take politics/side/etc. out of the equation and let's just discuss freeloading to maintain a safe discussion instead of having to move for politics. How can you look at those charts cassius posted and not at least question a littlllllllllle bit about who wants handouts and what not?

But.. we (I'm to blame as i referenced politics) can't have a hostile political debate here. That's for PMs or the political board.[/
QUOTE]

I don't this is political. This is common sense stuff and some basic knowledge of economics. There's a lot of unemployment because companies simply don't need to employ as many workers thanks to the internet and technologies that do jobs better than humans do. That's one reason people who are older are having such a tough time, because if they can't work well with a computer they are out of luck. In the 21st century employers are looking for a basic set of skills and if you want to make good money you're gonna have to specialize. Developed economies are going through an incredibly important change where you're seeing large numbers of people doing nothing or working at jobs that pay little and could easily replace their employee s with somebody else who would happily take the job. They key to being successful is to gain skills that the market recognizes as valuable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...b_1865027.html

As you can see in that article, people aren't dropping out of the labor force so they can suck America s teat. They're doing it for any number of reasons, retirement, going back to school, discouragement, etc. There's no indication that they're giving up so that they can live large and be welfare queens. Jobs don't grow on trees.
You also don't know the situation of those people who say they don't want to work. More than likely they are being supported more by family members than by the government.

On another note, I am close to somebody who was on unemployment while he was out of a job for almost a year. Unemployment is a terrible thing to go through, I don't think many people are choosing to be unemployed. Would a normal persons rather twiddle his thumbs all day and,tell people at parties he is on unemployment, OR work, have money, and not feel ashamed? I don't know what kind of a person would live off of it; I don't even think you really could. People qualify based on a variety of factors, including family size, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the system. This is all a red herring to get people worked up about somebody spending your tax money on a new television or something. The reality is that what is bankrupting us is those handouts to old people and the truly obscene amount of money we spend on defense. Instead of focusing on that, were here talking about unemployment benefits for people who are mostly victims of the system.

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11-07-2012, 09:26 PM
  #832
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Old
11-08-2012, 08:20 AM
  #833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I don't pick sides prior to the election like some. I don't really understand where it comes from. People are hell-bent on calling out others. Was the stat 80% of minorities voted for Obama? That's the difference right there in the election, my friend. How easy is it to see?

Ultimately, you cannot deny how many people do freeload. Take politics/side/etc. out of the equation and let's just discuss freeloading to maintain a safe discussion instead of having to move for politics. How can you look at those charts cassius posted and not at least question a littlllllllllle bit about who wants handouts and what not?

But.. we (I'm to blame as i referenced politics) can't have a hostile political debate here. That's for PMs or the political board.
I'm not sure what those charts have to do with "freeloading". The first chart of Male participation in the workforce may be explained by women entering the workforce as the "bread winners" in many instances. Additionally, as mentioned, the trend coincides with the aging population and many workers retiring. There is no doubt that recessions have caused decreases as well and many were just not able to recover from that. "Freeloading" may be a problem in this country, but not to the extent that you are alluding to IMO.

The unemployment rate chart just shows the ebbs and flows of recessionary cycles. There's is absolutely no indication from that chart that "freeloading" has anything to do with unemployment rate.

And finally, the last chart shows just how difficult this recession has been. MOST people that are still unemployed are so because they truly cannot find meaningful work. Now you could argue that people that had higher paying career jobs aren't willing to take the minimum wage or lower paying jobs and are "freeloading" by sticking with unemployment and other government benefits. That may be true, but can you blame them? If you have kids to feed and a family to support and your options are taking unemployment which covers a fair amount of your previous pay or flipping burgers, which would you choose?

I do agree that some people take advantage of the system and unfortunately that can turn into generations of families on government assistance. But I also believe in a society that cares and provides a safety net for those that are struggling. The caveat with that is I think we need to focus more on welfare to work programs, job re-training, career tools, etc than simply paying people not to work. I know there are limits to how long one can receive welfare and there may be work requirements (I believe it varies by state), but they don't seem to be regulated properly.

Also, I think they need to re-visit the amount of money one receives on food stamps and the terms and conditions to receive them. My wife's family had food stamps for a time when their family was struggling and she said they had much more money for food than they needed. After they were off food stamps, they struggled to have enough money to eat well. Point being, there is a gap between those on government assistance and the lower middle class that are scraping by. There need to be tweaks to these systems, but I truly do not believe the majority of people on government assistance are "freeloading".


Last edited by Shady Machine: 11-08-2012 at 08:34 AM.
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Old
11-08-2012, 08:31 AM
  #834
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When I was 18-22 I worked for a couple banks and did a lot w/ loans and what not. I heard so many stories on stuff like "I can't make more than $400" a week or else I won't get ____, _______, _______." That idea has to change in people's minds. That's such a selfish way to live. (Taking politics out of this as we were told to move on)

I see it so often that I just can't stand it. I don't know how you create a way to help out but the incentive to need to work should be there. I don't know how that is accomplished, but in today's USA - it isn't. And it's not as if jobs aren't out there. I walk through a mall and drive down Robinson and Sheetz, Starbucks, about 4 stores in the mall, Giant Eagle, etc. are all hiring. Sure it's going to be 8-11 dollars an hour, but so what? It's a job. We all did those types of jobs before.

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11-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
The reality is that what did bankrupt us is those handouts to old people and the truly obscene amount of money we spend on defense.
Interest payments and mandatory government expenditures consume all of our tax revenues before discretionary spending is implemented. The hole is deep.

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11-08-2012, 09:01 AM
  #836
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That's true, people do think they deserve things and i've known a few people like that. But the only option for them is to work, cause if not, what are they gonna do? They have to pay rent, they have to but food, etc. Using government assistance is not glamorous and a large majority of people are ashamed when they have to use it

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11-08-2012, 09:39 AM
  #837
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I do think that's what get's lost in the whole thing. Using government assistance isn't glamorous. You really aren't making that much, and it's no way to live. With that being said, too many people are on it as a career track, and have no desire to contribute to the economy. That's both their fault but government's fault also. The amount of unskilled labor to be done in this country has dipped dramatically. Those jobs need to be brought back for those who don't want to go to college, or those who just simply don't have the mental aptitude to do anything more. No shame in saying not everyone is smart enough to do specialized jobs. Those manufacturing jobs need to be brought back, but at the same time, those jobs come with unions, and unions need to be held in check.

I look at my job. What I do is a specialized craft, and you do need a certain amount of mental aptitude to do it. I am on the same pay scale as those who just merely sort and move packages. It's about as unskilled as it gets, but they can get upwards of 27 dollars an hour doing that job, and it's just too much for that level of labor. That's the big problem I have with unions. The second is that unions protect those with seniority and breed laziness, which creates sort of a social conflict within the organization because those with less seniority will always be held down regardless of what they do. I do a bunch of guy's jobs that have 25+ years in the company, and that'd be fine, but nothing is going to change due to the fact that they can now coast. I'm never going to be able to be more than I am until they retire. What incentive do they have to retire? They don't have one is the answer, so those below them will constantly be held down.

I don't think people have differing opinions on this issue whatsoever, but where the rub comes in is how people convey their thoughts on it. What the issue is, is should people who are able to work be forced to? I think almost everyone will say yes. Those who want to abolish all entitlements need to realize the economic ramifications it will have if you all of a sudden start kicking people off of welfare. Welfare shouldn't be abolished but drastically reformed where it's much more hands on and works hard to place those who are on it in jobs that they can stick with.

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11-08-2012, 10:20 AM
  #838
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The whole series of Pitt-Detroit '09 is being recapped on NHL Network right now. Hour long special.

It makes me miss hockey so badly.

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11-08-2012, 10:45 AM
  #839
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The whole series of Pitt-Detroit '09 is being recapped on NHL Network right now. Hour long special.

It makes me miss hockey so badly.
Doesn't the change in the air or falling leaves produce that for you?

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11-08-2012, 12:05 PM
  #840
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What kind of pastry should I get to go with my Tea? I want something biscuity with maybe icing?

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11-08-2012, 01:06 PM
  #841
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Is there any way we can start a political thread on Pens board? We all like talking about these issues with each other, it doesn't get out of hand, and from my knowledge, no one gets offended. I think the "No political talk" on this board is ridiculous, especially if it's being done in a respectful manner.

No, a thread cannot be made here on the Pens board or any other board. If you want to talk politics the site has a designated place for it. That's not my rule, but the sites rule.

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11-08-2012, 01:10 PM
  #842
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Accepted into a study abroad program with American University that will take me to Saint Petersburg and Moscow in the spring! Not leaving without seeing Geno.

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11-08-2012, 01:42 PM
  #843
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Well... power has been back out for about 24hrs. Cool.

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11-08-2012, 02:44 PM
  #844
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11-08-2012, 03:05 PM
  #845
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Accepted into a study abroad program with American University that will take me to Saint Petersburg and Moscow in the spring! Not leaving without seeing Geno.
Well, you'll only be about a 24 hour drive from Magnitogorsk. lol

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11-08-2012, 04:35 PM
  #846
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11-08-2012, 04:48 PM
  #847
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So, marijuana for recreational use was legalized in Colorado ... hmmm ...


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11-08-2012, 04:48 PM
  #848
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am i the only person who likes to manually control the windshield wipers? within reason of course, but i have my own rhythm that i prefer.

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11-08-2012, 04:54 PM
  #849
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What kind of pastry should I get to go with my Tea? I want something biscuity with maybe icing?
hard to go wrong with an éclair:



or how 'bout a kürtőskalác or a franzbrötchen or a plăcintă.

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11-08-2012, 05:09 PM
  #850
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I'd go for the placenta.

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