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Old
11-08-2012, 07:26 AM
  #226
Sundinisagod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Are you using those labels "1C, 2C, 1D, 2D, etc." to refer to the players' role on their particular team?

I think the consensus around here is that that's a poor way to think about it (Malkin isn't "really" a second-line center, after all). Rather, the question is how that player would fit on most teams or the average team in the NHL.

If that's the standard, it seems fair to refer to Couturier as solid 3C now (look at the Flyers depth at the position, compared to many other clubs). By the same token, I think Gardiner is a solid 4, who can play big (if some what "soft" minutes), but isn't quite ready to anchor a top-four pairing.
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Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
And Gardiner is currently our #2 defenseman...not that that makes him a legit #2 yet.
....answer your question?

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Old
11-08-2012, 09:15 AM
  #227
WarriorofTime
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Jake Gardiner, a rookie defenseman, outscored(in less games) Sean Couturier, a rookie forward last season. One rookie made the 11/12 All-Rookie team while one rooke did not. Toronto also adds a 20G+-40pt+ top 9 forward in his prime..

And Toronto is still told to add!

Oh HFBoards.. You never fail to make laugh.

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Oh and before I get..Bu-but Couturier shut down Malkin in the playoffs! Well firstly, Malkin was far above PPG that series posting 3G-8pts in 6gp and while he wasn't as effective at ES it is well-known that was a very PP-based scoring series. Secondly, Couturier posted a paltry 4pts in 11gp, scoring in only 1gp of the playoffs and going scoreless in the other 10gp.
Gardiner is three years older and got more opportunity because he plays on one of the consistently worst defensive teams in the league. Couts plays on one of the consistently most stacked forward groups in the league. Everyone recognized Couturier is way more valuable going forward. Get over it. MacArthur is a worthless Free Agent to be throw in.

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:17 PM
  #228
The Podium
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Gardiner is three years older and got more opportunity because he plays on one of the consistently worst defensive teams in the league. Couts plays on one of the consistently most stacked forward groups in the league. Everyone recognized Couturier is way more valuable going forward. Get over it. MacArthur is a worthless Free Agent to be throw in.
I dont think its one of the most stacked forward groups anymore, i mean they had 4 (correct me if im wrong) rookies in the lineup.... It couldnt of been THAT hard to crack

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:21 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Jtown View Post
No i did not do it based on potential. If i said that then it would be Couturier first line center, and Gardiner top pairing dman.

If that is the case then you are looking at a staal/Richards type package for couturier and a matt carle/Brent burns type package for Gardiner....

When you compare those 2 packages the center proves to be more valuable.
Burns was dealt for a 2nd liner, a top prospect and a late 1st
Richards was dealt for a top prospect and a 2nd liner
Staal was dealt for a top 10 pick, a 3rd liner (with the value of that of a 2nd liner) and a medioocre prospect

Its not that much more valueable, actually you can argue Burns returned the most.

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:37 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
I dont think its one of the most stacked forward groups anymore, i mean they had 4 (correct me if im wrong) rookies in the lineup.... It couldnt of been THAT hard to crack
Jagr, Giroux, Read, Hartnell, Briere, Simmond, Voracek, Schenn (injured for portions of the yr) and JVR in who was also injured for a portion of the season. If Schenn was healthy i would consider him a top 6 winger so that makes 9 top 6 forwards and that's in addition to Talbot who had a great year. If that's not stacked I don't know what is.

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:54 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
Burns was dealt for a 2nd liner, a top prospect and a late 1st
Richards was dealt for a top prospect and a 2nd liner
Staal was dealt for a top 10 pick, a 3rd liner (with the value of that of a 2nd liner) and a medioocre prospect

Its not that much more valueable, actually you can argue Burns returned the most.
When you try to put it that way, sure maybe. But in reality, Schenn >> Coyle and Simmonds > Setoguchi.

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Old
11-08-2012, 12:55 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
I dont think its one of the most stacked forward groups anymore, i mean they had 4 (correct me if im wrong) rookies in the lineup.... It couldnt of been THAT hard to crack
Ridiculous assertion considering the rookies they had are studs, not just guys that made the team because the Flyers had nobody else.

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Old
11-08-2012, 01:36 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Ridiculous assertion considering the rookies they had are studs, not just guys that made the team because the Flyers had nobody else.
Point is, Couturier isn't beating out the established players. He isn't beating out other rookies. He isn't even beating out his own line-mates that everybody says are terrible.

Seems kinda fishy for a 1st-line, best-defensive player on the team superstar.

Meanwhile, there was no room for Gardiner, yet he forced his way into the #3 spot on a pretty deep defense.

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Old
11-08-2012, 01:45 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by FlyersFan61290 View Post
Jagr, Giroux, Read, Hartnell, Briere, Simmond, Voracek, Schenn (injured for portions of the yr) and JVR in who was also injured for a portion of the season. If Schenn was healthy i would consider him a top 6 winger so that makes 9 top 6 forwards and that's in addition to Talbot who had a great year. If that's not stacked I don't know what is.
again you included 2 of the rookies i referenced, then list 1 fist liner (Giroux), 2 1b/2a players (Briere and Jagr) and 4 2nd liners (Hartnell [minus this year but i feel it had a lot to do with Grioux], Simmonds, JVR and Voracek). I mean its good, but it doesnt constitue as complete stacked considering he didnt have to outplay any established players evident by the fact that 1/3 of the offence was rookies.

LA is a team i consider offensive stacked...

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Old
11-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
again you included 2 of the rookies i referenced, then list 1 fist liner (Giroux), 2 1b/2a players (Briere and Jagr) and 4 2nd liners (Hartnell [minus this year but i feel it had a lot to do with Grioux], Simmonds, JVR and Voracek). I mean its good, but it doesnt constitue as complete stacked considering he didnt have to outplay any established players evident by the fact that 1/3 of the offence was rookies.

LA is a team i consider offensive stacked...
Generally offensively stacked teams don't have one of the worst goals for in the league, though.

Of all Philly's forwards, Couturier is probably the only one that could be used in a defensive role effectively, so it was probably a no-brainer to not give players who aren't as good defensively as Couturier the 3rd line duty. It's simply making best use of the assets available.

And yes, Philly's forward group is stacked, especially before losing Jagr and JVR.

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Old
11-08-2012, 02:52 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Generally offensively stacked teams don't have one of the worst goals for in the league, though.

Of all Philly's forwards, Couturier is probably the only one that could be used in a defensive role effectively, so it was probably a no-brainer to not give players who aren't as good defensively as Couturier the 3rd line duty. It's simply making best use of the assets available.

And yes, Philly's forward group is stacked, especially before losing Jagr and JVR.
But again, the same arguments can be used in Gardiners favour. The tougher defensive minutes should go to the "defensive specialists" on the team (ie. Schenn, Komisarek, Gunnarsson, Phaneuf). Gardiners stregnth is his offense which is why he was used in offensive situations. In an offensive zone start youd much rather have a Gardiner, Liles and Phaneuf than a Schenn orKomisarek, and in an ideal world where players live up to potential the vice-versa would be true.

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Old
11-08-2012, 03:12 PM
  #237
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This thread needs to just die, neither side wants to give up their promising young stud for the other teams promising young stud

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Old
11-08-2012, 03:43 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
But again, the same arguments can be used in Gardiners favour. The tougher defensive minutes should go to the "defensive specialists" on the team (ie. Schenn, Komisarek, Gunnarsson, Phaneuf). Gardiners stregnth is his offense which is why he was used in offensive situations. In an offensive zone start youd much rather have a Gardiner, Liles and Phaneuf than a Schenn orKomisarek, and in an ideal world where players live up to potential the vice-versa would be true.
This is true. I posted before that each player is proven at one end of the ice, and both have the potential to play well at the other.

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Old
11-08-2012, 05:24 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
But again, the same arguments can be used in Gardiners favour. The tougher defensive minutes should go to the "defensive specialists" on the team (ie. Schenn, Komisarek, Gunnarsson, Phaneuf). Gardiners stregnth is his offense which is why he was used in offensive situations. In an offensive zone start youd much rather have a Gardiner, Liles and Phaneuf than a Schenn orKomisarek, and in an ideal world where players live up to potential the vice-versa would be true.
Leafs aren't that great on defense though. Komisarek, Franson, and Schenn are all #6s. Nobody's saying Gardiner isn't good but cracking the defense of a consistently awful defensive team isn't a grand accomplishment just because they have a bunch of "NHL Defensemen". If he were 18 last year I would probably say he's equal with Couturier.

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Old
11-08-2012, 11:46 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
Leafs aren't that great on defense though. Komisarek, Franson, and Schenn are all #6s. Nobody's saying Gardiner isn't good but cracking the defense of a consistently awful defensive team isn't a grand accomplishment just because they have a bunch of "NHL Defensemen". If he were 18 last year I would probably say he's equal with Couturier.
But this is what i was arguing before... Couturier wasnt even battling established NHLers for a spot? he and 3 other rookies were able to crack the lineup without any major, and even minor for that matter, players sitting on the bench (JVR however was on IR).

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:35 AM
  #241
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Originally Posted by chrisx101 View Post
But this is what i was arguing before... Couturier wasnt even battling established NHLers for a spot? he and 3 other rookies were able to crack the lineup without any major, and even minor for that matter, players sitting on the bench (JVR however was on IR).
It was a surprise to most that Couturier made the team out of camp.

There was actually a big discussion on the Flyers board early on about Couturier and if was worth the Flyers burning a year of his ELC for what we assumed a pretty insignificant rookie year.

I think all of us agree that he was exceptional in his role.

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Old
11-09-2012, 12:36 AM
  #242
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Take out MacArthur and it's fair

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