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Quebec City Part VII: Si J'avais les ailes d'un ange

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11-07-2012, 11:59 PM
  #151
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11-08-2012, 09:43 AM
  #152
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I think both Houston and Seattle are interesting targets for exactly that reason. Seattle creates a regional rivalry with Vancouver, Houston with Dallas. These rivalries will help stabilize the new markets and give them a quick identity in the league that will help market them.

I think Houston is better in that sense than Quebec, and Seattle is a push. Quebec may renew a rivalry with the Habs, but the Habs don't need the help, so it doesn't help two franchises like Houston and Seattle do.

I prefer Houston to Seattle these days because Vancouver doesn't need THAT much help either -- although a real bitter rivalry to harden their fans and get them into something closer to what East Coast hockey looks like would probably do that franchise some good for reasons other than gate revenue. Houston could be the making of the Stars as well as the Houston franchise. And unlike many of the other contenders they already have a viable venue at hand -- the one the Houston Rockets use.
I'll tell you this right now, The Quebec-Montreal rivalry would generate much more money than Houston-Dallas. Not only that but Quebec has a media Empire in Quebecor just waiting to make gangbusters on this and generate tons of cash for the league.

This is almost cold, hard fact as you will ever have. Stop living in a science-fiction World, Dojji. Going to Houston would be irresponsible and dangerous.

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11-08-2012, 10:20 AM
  #153
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How? Quebec is going to fill its barn every night anyway, quoth the Quebecois, and every eye on the island is going to be fixated on every single meaningless game no matter what. What does the rivalry add to that? Do the Montreal Canadiens need help getting attention and ad revenue?

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11-08-2012, 11:45 AM
  #154
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Yeah, I agree with the last two posters. Houston would be great for the NHL, and for Dallas in particular, but hard to argue with the obvious stability and overall revenue that a franchise in Quebec would almost assuredly bring in.

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11-08-2012, 11:52 AM
  #155
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People are overrating that stability. Quebec is still a small market and would be one of the smallest in the league. By definition, small markets are not stable. Also by definition, if the Quebec market was stable, the team would not have been in danger of relocation.

If the league shifts as Bettman hopes and predicts it will, and is working towards it becoming, from a gate driven league to a media revenue driven one, Quebec is at a disadvantage almost immediately. They'll fill their barn but if gate receipts are only 30% or so of actual team revenue, the relatively small size of the Quebec market will hamstring any effort by the new Nordiques team to be relevant in any way other than attendance.

In short: Every small market team or fan who wants an expansion into a small market wants to pretend they can be Green Bay, but frankly, that fails far more often than it works. There's a much greater risk of floppage in the Quebec market over the long term than Canadians want to admit. Especially as media revenue becomes an increasingly large piece of the HRR pie. Trying to pretend that the Quebec City media market can keep up with Boston, New York or Toronto is an exercise in delusion.

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11-08-2012, 12:03 PM
  #156
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Yes, but there's a difference between a small Canadian market and a small NHL market. In terms of likely revenue generation, even smallish Quebec City and Winnipeg will probably bring in more than many significantly larger American markets.

If we were talking about Saskatoon, I'd agree with you that even the overwhelming love for the sport that Canadians have wouldn't be enough to float the boat given how small it is. But Quebec City likely is, especially as they'd be the only game in town.

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11-08-2012, 12:14 PM
  #157
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Quebec will generate more annual revenue than Houston. Unless the Canadian economy collapses Quebec will out revenue Houston nine out of ten seasons.

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11-08-2012, 12:34 PM
  #158
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Dojji is just pulling the frogs' leg. Anyone with half a brain knows Quebec would be a much better "hockey" market than Houston. The situation of TB, Florida, Phoenix, Atl and others is proof enough that hockey in big markets isn't enough to make things work, you need actual hockey fans.

The reason why the Nordiques left 17years ago was there was no corporate booths, a small and dated venue, no support from either the Province or city officials, no HRR sharing and a ,70can$. The market per say never was the problem. And if any of those things would have been otherwise, the team would probably still be there.

17 years later, the 100 corporate booths in the now building new arena are all pre-sold, support is huge from both sides of the parliament, the city mayor is all-in, there is HRR sharing and the dollar is at 1$.

Cherry on the cake is PKP. He has the money and contacts to make this all work.


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11-08-2012, 01:45 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
People are overrating that stability. Quebec is still a small market and would be one of the smallest in the league. By definition, small markets are not stable. Also by definition, if the Quebec market was stable, the team would not have been in danger of relocation.

If the league shifts as Bettman hopes and predicts it will, and is working towards it becoming, from a gate driven league to a media revenue driven one, Quebec is at a disadvantage almost immediately. They'll fill their barn but if gate receipts are only 30% or so of actual team revenue, the relatively small size of the Quebec market will hamstring any effort by the new Nordiques team to be relevant in any way other than attendance.

In short: Every small market team or fan who wants an expansion into a small market wants to pretend they can be Green Bay, but frankly, that fails far more often than it works. There's a much greater risk of floppage in the Quebec market over the long term than Canadians want to admit. Especially as media revenue becomes an increasingly large piece of the HRR pie. Trying to pretend that the Quebec City media market can keep up with Boston, New York or Toronto is an exercise in delusion.
I would like an explanation on the bolded.

Also, the media revenue argument seems fundamentally flawed to me.

Firstly, albeit (probably) differently, the hockey market size still applies, it doesn't become solely a question of population all of a sudden. That is part of the reason why I think the quote in italic is flawed: Hockey media market isn't media market. However, the biggest flaw I would see with that argument is the comparison, I don't know anyone that expects Quebec to bring more revenue than those big cities, nor did I hear anyone that believes Quebec should have as much revenue as those to deserve entering the league.

Secondly, you are seriously underevaluating the size of both Quebecor and the rest of the province that would follow a Quebec's city team.

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11-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
People are overrating that stability. Quebec is still a small market and would be one of the smallest in the league. By definition, small markets are not stable. Also by definition, if the Quebec market was stable, the team would not have been in danger of relocation.

If the league shifts as Bettman hopes and predicts it will, and is working towards it becoming, from a gate driven league to a media revenue driven one, Quebec is at a disadvantage almost immediately. They'll fill their barn but if gate receipts are only 30% or so of actual team revenue, the relatively small size of the Quebec market will hamstring any effort by the new Nordiques team to be relevant in any way other than attendance.

In short: Every small market team or fan who wants an expansion into a small market wants to pretend they can be Green Bay, but frankly, that fails far more often than it works. There's a much greater risk of floppage in the Quebec market over the long term than Canadians want to admit. Especially as media revenue becomes an increasingly large piece of the HRR pie. Trying to pretend that the Quebec City media market can keep up with Boston, New York or Toronto is an exercise in delusion.
you should know better, QC was sold because as with Winnipeg, and Hartford, the arena was outdated, Dojji, the major reason why the Colisee is still in use, is the same opposition, as to why each franchise was tranferred.

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11-08-2012, 04:20 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
How? Quebec is going to fill its barn every night anyway, quoth the Quebecois, and every eye on the island is going to be fixated on every single meaningless game no matter what. What does the rivalry add to that? Do the Montreal Canadiens need help getting attention and ad revenue?
Are you kidding? The thing will explode, not to mention in the regions. Not only it's printing money but if we only talk about the city itself you talk about a whole place living, breathing hockey. Even in Boston sometime you talk to people and they don't even know the Bruins exist. This would never happen here.

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11-08-2012, 04:21 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
Yeah, I agree with the last two posters. Houston would be great for the NHL, and for Dallas in particular, but hard to argue with the obvious stability and overall revenue that a franchise in Quebec would almost assuredly bring in.
There's no proof that Houston would be great for the NHL though. It's still hockey fans' theories. You don't go into something with theories.

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11-08-2012, 04:24 PM
  #163
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Isn't QBC a theory?

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11-08-2012, 04:24 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
People are overrating that stability. Quebec is still a small market and would be one of the smallest in the league. By definition, small markets are not stable. Also by definition, if the Quebec market was stable, the team would not have been in danger of relocation.

If the league shifts as Bettman hopes and predicts it will, and is working towards it becoming, from a gate driven league to a media revenue driven one, Quebec is at a disadvantage almost immediately. They'll fill their barn but if gate receipts are only 30% or so of actual team revenue, the relatively small size of the Quebec market will hamstring any effort by the new Nordiques team to be relevant in any way other than attendance.

In short: Every small market team or fan who wants an expansion into a small market wants to pretend they can be Green Bay, but frankly, that fails far more often than it works. There's a much greater risk of floppage in the Quebec market over the long term than Canadians want to admit. Especially as media revenue becomes an increasingly large piece of the HRR pie. Trying to pretend that the Quebec City media market can keep up with Boston, New York or Toronto is an exercise in delusion.
Quebec Media market has Media giant Quebecor behind them. The upside is greater than Boston. They would be rolling in the doe.

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11-08-2012, 04:25 PM
  #165
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Isn't QBC a theory?
It's as sure a bet as Winnipeg. Again they have Quebecor waiting for them to get the machine going. Everything is in place.

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11-08-2012, 05:09 PM
  #166
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Uh.... no, sorry. It's not a sure bet. Even Winnipeg's not a sure bet. One successful year =/= guaranteed longtime stability. Who knows what'll happen once the new team smell wears off? Pretty logical assumption that they are in for the long haul, but not guaranteed.

Same for Quebec City. It's a fairly safe assumption that the Nordiques2.0 would be a successful franchise, but still an assumption. Perhaps a stronger one than Houston, but an assumption nonetheless.

And Houston would be good for the NHL just from the fact that it's a massive untapped market and would make for a sensible geographic rivalry for Dallas, which it's never had before. Of course, it could all go to hell, but one would have to imagine that if it was intelligently run it would be a successful franchise, much like Dallas was before that went to hell when their old ownership overextended and bought Liverpool and suddenly found out that he didn't have the money necessary to run everything he was involved in.

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11-08-2012, 05:24 PM
  #167
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Yes, but there's a difference between a small Canadian market and a small NHL market. In terms of likely revenue generation, even smallish Quebec City and Winnipeg will probably bring in more than many significantly larger American markets.

If we were talking about Saskatoon, I'd agree with you that even the overwhelming love for the sport that Canadians have wouldn't be enough to float the boat given how small it is. But Quebec City likely is, especially as they'd be the only game in town.
To add to those points, while the city is small, the province as a whole is not. Quebec is larger than US states like Washington, Massachusetts, and Arizona. Yet, unlike those jurisdictions, the province has a mere two professional sports teams.

A team in Quebec City would almost certainly reach out to hockey fans beyond the city's metropolitan boundaries. There's no reason why Trois-Riveres or Saguenay cannot be solidly Nordiques blue over Habs red, especially given the role of PKP and his media empire in the potential franchise. For that reason, it is important to distinguish between the local market and the TV market.

There is no indication that a team in Quebec City could not be successful in the long-term. While I am not necessarily against putting a team in Houston sometime in the future, it would be irresponsible to do it at the expense of Quebec City. The NHL needs stable markets. Now is not the time to be taking more risks in large American markets with little mainstream hockey culture.

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11-08-2012, 05:33 PM
  #168
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Is the scandal in Montreal changing anything with the new Quebec city building?
Or is this just going city right now, nothing expanding out to rest of province?

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11-08-2012, 05:49 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
In short: Every small market team or fan who wants an expansion into a small market wants to pretend they can be Green Bay, but frankly, that fails far more often than it works. There's a much greater risk of floppage in the Quebec market over the long term than Canadians want to admit. Especially as media revenue becomes an increasingly large piece of the HRR pie. Trying to pretend that the Quebec City media market can keep up with Boston, New York or Toronto is an exercise in delusion.
A small market like quebec city/winnipeg can get 2-3-4-5-10 times more money for local tv rights than "big" markets like dallas/miami/phoenix/houston.......

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11-08-2012, 05:52 PM
  #170
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Is the scandal in Montreal changing anything with the new Quebec city building?
Or is this just going city right now, nothing expanding out to rest of province?
NO impact at all

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11-08-2012, 06:35 PM
  #171
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Is the scandal in Montreal changing anything with the new Quebec city building?
Or is this just going city right now, nothing expanding out to rest of province?
If anything, it would help lower the costs by increasing the awareness... but I don't think it changes anything, from the start the mayor has put his head in play (probably not an expression, hahaha) for the project to respect the estimated costs. I expect them to be ridiculously cautious with that project, considering how heavily it is under the headlights and how important it is for alot of institutions and people.

EDIT: There's probably not absolutely nothing in the rest of the province, but journalists and investigation units are digging and they have yet to find anything that's remotely close to what seems to haven been happening in Montreal and the surroundings. Haven't found much at all actually.

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11-08-2012, 06:57 PM
  #172
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Revo wanted to say the mayor put his head on the line with this project

The 1st contract for excavation was 11% cheaper than estimated at first

so far so good

2nd tender for all the concrete was in yesterdays paper and closing dec 6

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11-08-2012, 07:33 PM
  #173
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How? Quebec is going to fill its barn every night anyway, quoth the Quebecois, and every eye on the island is going to be fixated on every single meaningless game no matter what. What does the rivalry add to that? Do the Montreal Canadiens need help getting attention and ad revenue?
There would be a little flag or two, or four, on every single car in this province and a couple million people wearing Habs or Nords gear if there is ever a playoff series between Qc and Mtl. The rivalry would be absolutely and completely insane and a complete cash cow on top of drawing attention from the rest of the league as well.

And the Quebec market is not just Quebec city, there were many, many Nordiques fans everywere in the province and even a couple in the maritimes. With the correct marketing approach they could get all of them back and then some. Furthermore it would be the only major sports team in town and Qc city is currently one of the most dynamic cities in north america, has good growth and low unemployement. The city is much different than it was 15-20 years ago.

EDIT : Just saw the post about the Montreal corruption scandal. As far as I've heard theres been nothing about Quebec city so far. I'm not naive enough to claim there has been absolutely no corruption here but it doesn't be as bad as Montreal. Things simply appear to get done better in Quebec City, we've had many major successful highway modifications in recent years and I haven't heard anything about excessive construction costs or delays either. In Montreal the infrastructure has been completely falling apart even if the whole system is frankly pretty minimalist for big city like that. I don't care its an island and more difficult to organize fluid transport, its a complete and utter mess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordonGraham
A small market like quebec city/winnipeg can get 2-3-4-5-10 times more money for local tv rights than "big" markets like dallas/miami/phoenix/houston.......
Indeed. Recently launched TVAsports is pretty much destined to show 82 Nordiques game. It would be pretty incredible with their rival RDS showing 82 Habs games.


Last edited by FlyingKostitsyn: 11-08-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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11-08-2012, 08:39 PM
  #174
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If anything, it would help lower the costs by increasing the awareness... but I don't think it changes anything, from the start the mayor has put his head in play (probably not an expression, hahaha) for the project to respect the estimated costs. I expect them to be ridiculously cautious with that project, considering how heavily it is under the headlights and how important it is for alot of institutions and people.

EDIT: There's probably not absolutely nothing in the rest of the province, but journalists and investigation units are digging and they have yet to find anything that's remotely close to what seems to haven been happening in Montreal and the surroundings. Haven't found much at all actually.
Actually the City has been proactive and has sent two employee files to the UPAC (anti-corruption police unit) for verification.

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11-08-2012, 09:16 PM
  #175
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Actually the City has been proactive and has sent two employee files to the UPAC (anti-corruption police unit) for verification.
I know, that's what I'm saying, they're searching for it and yet have only found (so far anyway) stuff of limited intensity.

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