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Sergei Fedorov

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11-08-2012, 03:11 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Am i missing something or did you leave out Forsberg's 1st finish in his art year?
Yeah, thanks for catching that. I think I missed that one because it's in bold on hockeyreference and as his last top-10 finish, it's in place on where they'd normally put the career rank.

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11-08-2012, 03:14 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary View Post
Fedorov = 107, 87, 86, 83, 79, 69, 68, 65, 63, 63, 62, 50, 44, 42, 41
Brind'Amr = 97, 87, 86, 82, 77, 74, 74, 70, 61, 59, 56, 55, 51, 51, 49

Fedorov: 1 x Selke, 0 All-Star Teams.
Brind'Amr: 2 x Selke, 0 All-Star Teams.
Wow, this really makes me rethink how good Brind'Amour actually was offensively.

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11-08-2012, 04:04 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Stars23 View Post
The facts are simple and true:

Fedorov was considered the Best player in the World in 1993-94 and won the Hart Trophy (Individual Gold) and Lindsay and Selke (No other player in history of the earth has done that in a single season)

(Lemieux would have 63 goals and 138 Points in a 82 game average (Lemieux has NEVER played an 80 game season) when he was healthy enough to play - wouldn't have won the Rocket Award that season, and maybe the Art Ross (50/50 or less).

Fedorov was the Best in 1994. Wayne Gretzky & Steve Yzerman have said they believe Feds "is the most talented player they've ever seen". From the Best of the Best.

Fedorov also played as a defenseman to shut down guys like Forsberg and Gretzky when he was in his prime in the playoffs. Fedorov also led the NHL in plus/minus in the 1990's with 221+, talk about Legendary.

Guys like Steve Yzerman have also said Fedorov is the best skater they've ever seen, and the among the fastest, if not the fastest (especially Big ice).

He won the hardest shot competition and is also considered one of the greatest playoff performers in NHL history.

He also has the single season NHL record of $28 million, payed in a 6 month span where he lead the playoffs in goals in '98 and to the Stanley Cup (second in a row).

Oh yeah can anyone refute the fact Fedorov beat Jagr and Forsberg in Best on Best Olympics points per a game? and Canada Cup/World points per a game and goals per a game, all this while playing as a Soviet style Defensive Center - Looks like when the competition was Best on Best, Fedorov was better

Canada just dislikes Russians to the max (except Wayne Gretzky, who is of part Russian and Belarusian descent ("White Russia") lol
Great post, although I tend to disagree with the last paragraph. Fedorov is my all time favorite player, Ovechkin was at one time the most popular player in the league, and I guarentee Malkin is near the top of that list currently.

Canadians, generally speaking, dislike the Semin/Filatov type. Primma donna with one dimensional skillsets and fluctuating effort level.

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11-08-2012, 04:37 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Fedorov generally played on stronger teams with better linemates than Jagr at least.

How about the 2010 WCs when Czechs beat Russia in gold medal game? The only NHLers who played for Czechs were Jagr, Vokoun and Voracek. The Russians had Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kovalchuk, Semin, Fedorov, Afinogenov, Gonchar, Frolov, etc.

I don't remember Russia being much of a factor in the best on best WC in 2005, when Jagr led the Czechs to gold. Russia again had a strong roster: Ovechkin, Malkin, Kovalchuk, Kovalev, Fedorov, Kozlov, Afinogenov, Semin, Markov, Yashin, etc.

What has been Russia's biggest international achievement with Fedorov? Beating some undermanned team at the WCs? Do you really think Czech or Sweden would have rather had Fedorov than Jagr/Forsberg in most tournaments?
Jagr? Donít know... Forsberg? Definitely.


Fedorov (in his prime) was most perfectly balanced player Iíve seen. Some more physical, some had better speed (1 or 2), some had better shot (maybe 1 or 2) some had better D, and some could dissect opponent better then him (sometimes),but combination of all those thing made him awesome to watch.
Him and Konstantinov pretty much are responsible for getting me into NHL

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11-08-2012, 05:20 PM
  #230
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Why does Detroit get always players that are really exciting to watch?
They got Fedorov, now they have Datsyuk.
Next one is?

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11-08-2012, 05:50 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Grigorenko View Post
Why does Detroit get always players that are really exciting to watch?
They got Fedorov, now they have Datsyuk.
Next one is?
Nyquist or Smith. Nyquist because he's got the raw skill, Smith because the puck is either going in the other team's net or his, and not even he knows which one it'll be.

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11-08-2012, 06:44 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grigorenko View Post
Why does Detroit get always players that are really exciting to watch?
They got Fedorov, now they have Datsyuk.
Next one is?
There are plenty of teams that get players that are exciting to watch.

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11-08-2012, 07:33 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Nyquist or Smith. Nyquist because he's got the raw skill, Smith because the puck is either going in the other team's net or his, and not even he knows which one it'll be.
You can compare Nyquist's skills with Fedorov or Datsyuk? Hmmmm... The dude is really good, but I don't think so

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11-08-2012, 07:39 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Grigorenko View Post
You can compare Nyquist's skills with Fedorov or Datsyuk? Hmmmm... The dude is really good, but I don't think so
I get the feeling you're probably overrating Datsyuk by a good bit. If you dropped Datsyuk onto, say, the Penguins he'd be no better than the THIRD best center on the team and one could make the argument that Jordan Staal is better than Datsyuk too.

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11-08-2012, 07:44 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I get the feeling you're probably overrating Datsyuk by a good bit. If you dropped Datsyuk onto, say, the Penguins he'd be no better than the THIRD best center on the team and one could make the argument that Jordan Staal is better than Datsyuk too.
I'm not talking about his overall game, but his raw skills and the fact that he is amazing to watch. I love to catch a Wings game just to watch him, and only him. He's a wizard, but not the best player overall.

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11-08-2012, 09:55 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I get the feeling you're probably overrating Datsyuk by a good bit. If you dropped Datsyuk onto, say, the Penguins he'd be no better than the THIRD best center on the team and one could make the argument that Jordan Staal is better than Datsyuk too.
Sure. But you'd have to watch absolutely 0 hockey to believe it.

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11-08-2012, 10:07 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure. But you'd have to watch absolutely 0 hockey to believe it.
Sorry, but there is no reality alternate or otherwise where Datsyuk is better than either Crosby or Malkin or even remotely near their level......And before you say anything I HATE the Penguins.

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11-08-2012, 10:08 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Sorry, but there is no reality alternate or otherwise where Datsyuk is better than either Crosby or Malkin or even remotely near their level......ASd before you say anything I HATE the Penguins.
Sorry, but I meant the Jordan Staal part (sorry for excessive bolding of entire sentence).

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11-08-2012, 10:10 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sorry, but I meant the Jordan Staal part (sorry for excessive bolding of entire sentence).
I said Jordan Staal could be argued. Bottom line is their yearly numbers aren't all that different.

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11-08-2012, 10:18 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
I think Yzerman tends to be overrated, at least in the media, relative to Fedorov.

THN's best 60 since '67 had them 54 spots apart (and that's just since expansion), due to Yzerman's lofty #6 rating (say what?) and Fedorov slipping in at #60.

However, there were a couple polls on HoH a few years ago limited to forwards and #13 & #21 in the poll of NHL forwards since WWII and #15 & #30 of NHL all-time forwards. That's more how I would rank them, which since forwards are half of all players, might equate to ~16 and ~30 spot differences, respectively. That seems about right to me.
Dropping all O6 forwards, who would you rank ahead of Yzerman? Gretzky, Lemieux, and then there's a mess of guys who you can make an argument for or against. Yzerman could easily have received the #3 slot. At most, I can think of maybe six more guys after the big two who would go ahead of him, if Yzerman were being ranked as low as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Bure played in a lower scoring environment? News to me.

Richard played from 1943-44 to 1959-60

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

43-44 4.0
44-45 3.5
45-46 3.3
46-47 3.1
47-48 2.9
48-49 2.7
49-50 2.7
50-51 2.7
51-52 2.6
52-53 2.4
53-54 2.4
54-55 2.5
55-56 2.6
56-57 2.7
57-58 2.8
58-59 2.9
59-60 2.9

Pavel Bure played from 1991-92 through 2002-03

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

91-92 3.5
92-93 3.6
93-94 3.2
94-95 3.0
95-96 3.1
96-97 2.9
97-98 2.6
98-99 2.6
99-00 2.7
00-01 2.7
01-02 2.6
02-03 2.6

The scoring environment was practically identical.
Richard's best season came in 1944-45. It was his highest scoring season by 0.25 GPG, and 0.26 PPG. If you replace that year with one representing the average of the rest of his career, nobody is talking about Richard as one of the five or ten best players of all-time, let alone better than guys like Lafleur or Beliveau.

Finally, may I ask why you ask why you chose to include playoff numbers in your averages, even though regular season stats would not be reflected by such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Bure played in a lower scoring environment? News to me.

Richard played from 1943-44 to 1959-60

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

43-44 4.0
44-45 3.5
45-46 3.3
46-47 3.1
47-48 2.9
48-49 2.7
49-50 2.7
50-51 2.7
51-52 2.6
52-53 2.4
53-54 2.4
54-55 2.5
55-56 2.6
56-57 2.7
57-58 2.8
58-59 2.9
59-60 2.9

Pavel Bure played from 1991-92 through 2002-03

Average scoring per team per game (including playoffs):

91-92 3.5
92-93 3.6
93-94 3.2
94-95 3.0
95-96 3.1
96-97 2.9
97-98 2.6
98-99 2.6
99-00 2.7
00-01 2.7
01-02 2.6
02-03 2.6

The scoring environment was practically identical.

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11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Finally, may I ask why you ask why you chose to include playoff numbers in your averages, even though regular season stats would not be reflected by such?
Because the playoffs are just as important as the regular season so that's how I have them compiled on my spreadsheets. The last time I posted numbers in a similar vein one of the mods thanked me for including the playoff numbers.

I would also point out that adding the playoffs changes those goals per game averages by only one or two fractions of goals each year so it's not like there's some huge impact.

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11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I said Jordan Staal could be argued.
And I said you'd have to avoid actually watching them play to believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Because the playoffs are just as important as the regular season so that's how I have them compiled on my spreadsheets. The last time I posted numbers in a similar vein one of the mods thanked me for including the playoff numbers.

I would also point out that adding the playoffs changes those goals per game averages by only one or two fractions of goals each year so it's not like there's some huge impact.
I'm surprised that a Patrick Roy fan would blend regular season numbers with playoff numbers, given that literally his only firm ground in comparisons with Hasek, for example, is his playoff numbers specifically and separately, versus his peers, and the fact that the playoffs are actually treated as more important than the regular season in most regards.

But most crucially, statistics from a 30 team pool should not be treated the same as statistics from the top 16 teams selected from that 30. PPG scoring in the regular season (against every opponent from best to worst) is NOT equal to PPG scoring in the playoffs (against the top 16 teams), imo.


Last edited by Ohashi_Jouzu: 11-08-2012 at 10:31 PM.
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11-08-2012, 10:26 PM
  #243
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And I said you'd have to avoid actually watching them play to believe it.
The numbers don't lie: There isn't much statistical difference.

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11-08-2012, 10:32 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The numbers don't lie: There isn't much statistical difference.
Good thing they make the guys play the season, and don't just computer sim it.

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11-08-2012, 10:35 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Good thing they make the guys play the season, and don't just computer sim it.
Of course, and that's why when I last checked Staal and the Penguins were sipping champagne over the corpse of Datsyuk and the Red Wings in '09.

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11-08-2012, 10:51 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Fedorov generally played on stronger teams with better linemates than Jagr at least.
What linemates did Fedorov have who were better than Ron Francis? Slava Kozlov was Fedorov's best regular linemate.

He occasionally played shifts in his DET career with Yzerman or Shanahan. Jagr spent the entire 1995-96 season on the PP with Francis and Lemieux. Jagr had plenty of other time with Lemieux. Kovalev and Lang were in there also.

After leaving Detroit, Fedorov went to an Anaheim team with very limited forward talent, and then moved to Columbus where he played occasionally with a very young Rick Nash. He finally was traded to Washington and served as a second line center and defensive specialist. He saw the occasional rare shift with Ovechkin, but it was unusual.

I don't detect any regular linemates for Fedorov who match up to Jagr's, and Fedorov's "occasional" linemates don't match up either.

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11-08-2012, 11:10 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
The numbers don't lie: There isn't much statistical difference.
Hmm. Staal had a comparable PPG last year. Last year was also a huge anomaly for Staal in his career stats. Furthermore, Staal play in the East, which is a higher scoring conference. Using basic statistic, plus the idea that scoring forwards hold most of the point, he gained anywhere from 5-15 points (per 82) over what he would have had in the West. That would put him closer to 50 points in 82 games instead of 50 points in 62. Alternatively, you can tack on that 15 to Datsyuk's total; he would be better than a PPG.

The numbers don't lie.

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11-08-2012, 11:25 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hmm. Staal had a comparable PPG last year. Last year was also a huge anomaly for Staal in his career stats. Furthermore, Staal play in the East, which is a higher scoring conference. Using basic statistic, plus the idea that scoring forwards hold most of the point, he gained anywhere from 5-15 points (per 82) over what he would have had in the West. That would put him closer to 50 points in 82 games instead of 50 points in 62. Alternatively, you can tack on that 15 to Datsyuk's total; he would be better than a PPG.

The numbers don't lie.
2.8 versus 2.6 isn't a huge difference between the two conferences: This isn't a case like baseball where the DH in the American League noticeably inflates the numbers over the National League.

Regardless, my point wasn't that Staal is a better player than Datsyuk but that the argument could be made (and probably WOULD be made by Penguins fanatics) from the stats (and even then simply because someone made an argument for the "eyeball test").

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11-08-2012, 11:25 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hmm. Staal had a comparable PPG last year. Last year was also a huge anomaly for Staal in his career stats. Furthermore, Staal play in the East, which is a higher scoring conference. Using basic statistic, plus the idea that scoring forwards hold most of the point, he gained anywhere from 5-15 points (per 82) over what he would have had in the West. That would put him closer to 50 points in 82 games instead of 50 points in 62. Alternatively, you can tack on that 15 to Datsyuk's total; he would be better than a PPG.

The numbers don't lie.
Explain the basic statistics that are giving you these truthful numbers.

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11-08-2012, 11:27 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And I said you'd have to avoid actually watching them play to believe it.



I'm surprised that a Patrick Roy fan would blend regular season numbers with playoff numbers, given that literally his only firm ground in comparisons with Hasek, for example, is his playoff numbers specifically and separately, versus his peers, and the fact that the playoffs are actually treated as more important than the regular season in most regards.

But most crucially, statistics from a 30 team pool should not be treated the same as statistics from the top 16 teams selected from that 30. PPG scoring in the regular season (against every opponent from best to worst) is NOT equal to PPG scoring in the playoffs (against the top 16 teams), imo.
I'm actually surprised a Hasek hugger would argue that the playoffs are more important given his idol's propensity for getting outplayed there.

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