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Thread (V): Argos embarass Eskimos; Changes need to be made. Nichols seriously hurt.

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Old
11-08-2012, 08:37 PM
  #76
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People are talking about this game like its a forgone conclusion. So much written about the Eskimos going 2-8 down the stretch. Yet we've faced Calgary 4 times in this stretch lost all of them, but 3 of them by a combined total of 6pts. This against a Calgary team thats on top of its game and playing in the last 10 games like the hottest team in the league. Then we've played BC twice in the stretch and Montreal once. Thats 7 formidable games out of 10. A killer schedule. Yeah we lost 3 in a row going into the playoffs, against a killer stretch of Montreal, BC, Calgary (doesn't get worse than this in the CFL) and we were in every one of those matches and the team accounted for itself reasonably well. ALL of these clubs being better opponents then we will be facing this weekend.

Lets let the game happen before we call it a loss.

This is the healthiest this club has been since almost the start of the season. Howard will play his first full game in forever, we have 3 RB's now looking fairly legit, Stamps redhot and unstoppable in the last half dozen games. Nichols coming in well in relief(doesn't start games very well) and Joseph rested.

Lets remember as well that its been ages since Toronto beat any Western Opponent except the riders who are playing horrible of late. Toronto also beat the Stamps twice earlier in the year before the Stamps got on a role. They haven't won a single other game against a Western opponent. The Argos haven't beat any Western Club thats playing well all year.
If the Eskimos bring a reasonable fascimile of their A game we win this. If we play like we did against the Riders, or even Calgary last week we win this.

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11-08-2012, 10:03 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
Anyone who has watched us play all year cannot be surprised by this decision. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to throw Nichols in there only because his nerves might get the best of him.
As opposed to the lesser pressure when we're bringing him in if we're down by 7, 14 or 21 points?

This train of thought makes no sense in my opinion. It's the ****ing playoffs. There will always be pressure. Let the kid start the game, get into rhythm and get his head into the game.

Putting Joseph is clearly just Reed being stubborn.

We need to pound the ball down the throats of Toronto if we want to win with Joseph. As a passer Joseph scares no one, but if we can open up space through having a run game, it might make it somewhat bearable.

Starting Joseph FFS Reed.

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11-08-2012, 10:06 PM
  #78
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Reed is obviously hoping that Joseph can find a way to get hot and string together two wins again.

Clearly, fluking their way to a futile Grey Cup birth is more important to this organization than developing a starting quarterback.

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11-08-2012, 10:26 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
As opposed to the lesser pressure when we're bringing him in if we're down by 7, 14 or 21 points?

This train of thought makes no sense in my opinion. It's the ****ing playoffs. There will always be pressure. Let the kid start the game, get into rhythm and get his head into the game.

Putting Joseph is clearly just Reed being stubborn.

We need to pound the ball down the throats of Toronto if we want to win with Joseph. As a passer Joseph scares no one, but if we can open up space through having a run game, it might make it somewhat bearable.

Starting Joseph FFS Reed.
Its arguable that Nichols gets better looks at what the Argos are trying to do from the sidelines for the first few drives then he does on the field. Nichols has not been a quick starter anyway, and we don't have a quick starter.

Thing is if you start Nichols, and he gets eaten alive as a rookie, its game over. Seeya next year in an instant. On the other hand if Joseph struggles Nichols has shown himself to be a good reliever. In this way the Eskimos give themselves two potential chances at having a hothand then one.

In any sport, theres on days and off days for anybody and including QB's. You NEVER know how they will look on a given day in a one game must win playoff.

Giving BOTH Joseph and Nichols a chance may be the right move. That said it might not even happen and nothing prevents the Eskimos from flat out starting Nichols in the game on Sunday.

Not sure why people read so much into the statements. Especially when the statements often don't match exactly what will take place on gameday.

The stupidest single thing the Eskimos could do is STATING that they are starting Nichols? Why would they do that?

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11-09-2012, 06:14 AM
  #80
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Thanks Replacement, that pretty much sums up my thought process.

The way I see it, our defense has to step it up as well at the start of the game so we are not behind by 10 points 6 minutes into the game.

As for Joseph being named starter, I am not convinced this is the whole game plan. Why put extra heat throughout the week on a virtual Rookie? He can take as many snaps as Joseph and this could all be a decoy for the actual game.

I think it's the right decision for the start. Let Matt see what's going on and then go in. I don't think it hurts to get the nerves on the sideline under control and go in because I think observing for a bit slows the game down for any QB. I think if he went in off the get go and struggled we are doomed.

Just let Reed have enough brains to figure out that if it's Bad Joseph, yank him early.

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11-09-2012, 06:57 AM
  #81
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Yes, let Nichols come into the game with a 20 pt deficit. As long as he was able to watch from the sidelines and figure out that Joseph was garbage and we have an insurmountable lead to overcome, everything should work out just fine.

People should be hanging Reed in effigy over this. Among other things. The list is long. Incompetence should not be tolerated, condoned, or excused. We should be calling a spade a ****ing shovel.

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11-09-2012, 08:58 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
As opposed to the lesser pressure when we're bringing him in if we're down by 7, 14 or 21 points?

This train of thought makes no sense in my opinion. It's the ****ing playoffs. There will always be pressure. Let the kid start the game, get into rhythm and get his head into the game.

Putting Joseph is clearly just Reed being stubborn.

We need to pound the ball down the throats of Toronto if we want to win with Joseph. As a passer Joseph scares no one, but if we can open up space through having a run game, it might make it somewhat bearable.

Starting Joseph FFS Reed.
i'm with you brother.
I came on this mornnig to see if anyone could justify or defend Reed starting Joseph.
I see nobody could.
AJgass4 had the effort of "nerves might get to Nicholls"? I don't think it would happen. There is no pressure on nicholls. I think almost all of us would rather watch nicholls start, do his best and fail, than to risk the joesph "on a short leash" crapshow. Joseph would have more nerves knowing nobody but Kavis wants him starting the game.

I still think the esks will lose because the defense is banged up and I don't trust the secondary. also, Ricky Ray is ready to play and ready to kick edmonton butt.
and the esks have joseph to start.
I predict being down at least 10 points after the first quarter, with Joseph throwing ant interception as he forces a pass into an aggresive toronto secondary, and kavis making at least one clearly boneheaded coaching decision in the first half.

(I really would like the esks to win, I just don't think they will)

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11-09-2012, 09:08 AM
  #83
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Well you are entitled to your opinion Gord, but I still think Reed has some football brains and if things go south in a hurry for Joseph, Nichols will see the ball.

If we stop taking stupid penalties and put a ton of pressure on Ray, this game may not be the blowout everyone is expecting.

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11-09-2012, 09:18 AM
  #84
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Sounds like the Tillman firing is causing as much problems for Toronto as it has in Edmonton. Everyone there is looking at Barker like a dead man walking. This season has been such a gong show, if we hadnt looked so horrible for so many years this big match up with Ricky Ray would be a pretty big deal. Of course it would have been much better if both teams were good and it happened in the Grey Cup but I guess you take what you can get.

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11-09-2012, 09:27 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by AJGass4 View Post
Well you are entitled to your opinion Gord, but I still think Reed has some football brains and if things go south in a hurry for Joseph, Nichols will see the ball.

If we stop taking stupid penalties and put a ton of pressure on Ray, this game may not be the blowout everyone is expecting.
It's pretty sad that everyone is expecting us to get blown out. I mean sure we've been pretty horrible but we're playing the Argonauts who arent exactly world beaters. Sure Ray had a good couple games near the end of the season but these guys arent exactly the class of the league, heck they're a .500 club without a winning record at home.

As for Reed, I like him as a motivator and a team first guy but he hasnt shown the ability to put together a winning game plan or change it up when things arent working and he's shown questionable judgement so many times this season. Maybe he can be a good head coach but I'm not sure he's ready for it at this level. Of course the Eskimos problems start higher up the food chain. I think they need a Football guy as president, you can always hire a marketing guy but fans respond to a good team much more than they do a good half time show.

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11-09-2012, 10:25 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Halibut View Post
It's pretty sad that everyone is expecting us to get blown out. I mean sure we've been pretty horrible but we're playing the Argonauts who arent exactly world beaters. Sure Ray had a good couple games near the end of the season but these guys arent exactly the class of the league, heck they're a .500 club without a winning record at home.

As for Reed, I like him as a motivator and a team first guy but he hasnt shown the ability to put together a winning game plan or change it up when things arent working and he's shown questionable judgement so many times this season. Maybe he can be a good head coach but I'm not sure he's ready for it at this level. Of course the Eskimos problems start higher up the food chain. I think they need a Football guy as president, you can always hire a marketing guy but fans respond to a good team much more than they do a good half time show.
And so far, the marketing guy's two entertainment ventures this season have been disasters. Maybe he and Reed should change places.

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11-09-2012, 01:36 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its arguable that Nichols gets better looks at what the Argos are trying to do from the sidelines for the first few drives then he does on the field. Nichols has not been a quick starter anyway, and we don't have a quick starter.
That assumes Argos give Nichols the same looks that they'll give Joseph though. Nichols and Joseph are different enough QBs that if I'm the Argos, I have different gameplans on how to play both QBs. For example Joseph's lack of mobility vs. Nichols decent enough mobility probably means different blitz packages for both. I'm not sure we can say that works for this game.

Quote:
Thing is if you start Nichols, and he gets eaten alive as a rookie, its game over. Seeya next year in an instant. On the other hand if Joseph struggles Nichols has shown himself to be a good reliever. In this way the Eskimos give themselves two potential chances at having a hothand then one.
If Joseph struggles, we could be down 20+ points in less than 10 minutes. While Nichols has shown good as a reliever, that type of deficit maybe far too much for Nichols to came back from. Why exactly risk that?

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In any sport, theres on days and off days for anybody and including QB's. You NEVER know how they will look on a given day in a one game must win playoff.
Which is why you give yourselves the best chance to win. Has Joseph's recent performances indicated he gives us the best chance to win? Or has Nichols?

Going into a playoff game basing it off on a hope and a prayer isn't good team management. Nor does it give your team the best chance to win.

I don't see it. I doubt the Argos will be all "Oh they are starting Joseph, don't bother planning for Nichols then". They'll plan for both, so not naming him the starter has no effect. All it does is leave this team with the potential to be a hole due to Joseph's inept play.

Splitting snaps in the week for a playoff game isn't exactly good preparation either. You should be getting your starting the most reps throughout the week. This isn't the regular season where we're trying to see who's the best QB. This is the playoffs, where we should be fielding the best team possible.

Reed unfortunately hasn't done that.

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11-09-2012, 02:31 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
That assumes Argos give Nichols the same looks that they'll give Joseph though. Nichols and Joseph are different enough QBs that if I'm the Argos, I have different gameplans on how to play both QBs. For example Joseph's lack of mobility vs. Nichols decent enough mobility probably means different blitz packages for both. I'm not sure we can say that works for this game.



If Joseph struggles, we could be down 20+ points in less than 10 minutes. While Nichols has shown good as a reliever, that type of deficit maybe far too much for Nichols to came back from. Why exactly risk that?



Which is why you give yourselves the best chance to win. Has Joseph's recent performances indicated he gives us the best chance to win? Or has Nichols?

Going into a playoff game basing it off on a hope and a prayer isn't good team management. Nor does it give your team the best chance to win.

I don't see it. I doubt the Argos will be all "Oh they are starting Joseph, don't bother planning for Nichols then". They'll plan for both, so not naming him the starter has no effect. All it does is leave this team with the potential to be a hole due to Joseph's inept play.

Splitting snaps in the week for a playoff game isn't exactly good preparation either. You should be getting your starting the most reps throughout the week. This isn't the regular season where we're trying to see who's the best QB. This is the playoffs, where we should be fielding the best team possible.

Reed unfortunately hasn't done that.
Reread everything you wrote and note that of course its harder for an opponent to have to train and practice for more options and to not know whats coming, to not have the hand tipped, and to have to anticipate every wrinkle.

This is a huge advantage for the Eskimos and they're playing every card right. The entire Eskimos team knows RR tendencies and game inside out, strengths, weaknesses, and they have all week to look at that. Toronto actually has more eventualities to prepare for. Obviously Toronto has the better QB, but they're also much more of a known.

Theres only one week and a limited amount of practices to get it right and get together and develop a game plan. Coaching staffs eat, sleep and breathe this **** but the average player don't. With the average player, and team, you have a very finite opportunity to have people on the right page. NEVER feels like enough time to do that. Thats football, a week goes by in an instant. You wonder what happened to the week and hope you got enough good things down.

Its preparing for a weekly football game, not taking a year to prepare for a NASA moon mission. Any unforeseen complications, preparations ALWAYS makes life very difficult for the opponent.

I like having two QB's. 3RB's etc, to pick from.

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11-09-2012, 02:35 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Oilbleeder View Post
If Joseph struggles, we could be down 20+ points in less than 10 minutes. While Nichols has shown good as a reliever, that type of deficit maybe far too much for Nichols to came back from. Why exactly risk that?
If our defence gives up 20 points in 10 minutes then we're sunk either way, unless you think all those points are coming off of Joseph INT's which I guess is possible but I dont see it. More likely we're sitting with a score of 7-3 at the half and nobody has been able to move the ball successfully.

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11-09-2012, 02:54 PM
  #90
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Thinking it will be a tight game, probably less than 7 points/one posession seperating the winner/loser.

Every drive Reed leaves Joseph in the game, is one less opportunity for Nichols to pull this out of the fire. I don't see a reason to give Ricky Ray a 20 minute head start over the Nichols lead Eskimo offence. Win or lose, Reed needs to be gone.

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11-09-2012, 03:03 PM
  #91
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People are talking about this game like its a forgone conclusion. So much written about the Eskimos going 2-8 down the stretch. Yet we've faced Calgary 4 times in this stretch lost all of them, but 3 of them by a combined total of 6pts. This against a Calgary team thats on top of its game and playing in the last 10 games like the hottest team in the league. Then we've played BC twice in the stretch and Montreal once. Thats 7 formidable games out of 10. A killer schedule. Yeah we lost 3 in a row going into the playoffs, against a killer stretch of Montreal, BC, Calgary (doesn't get worse than this in the CFL) and we were in every one of those matches and the team accounted for itself reasonably well. ALL of these clubs being better opponents then we will be facing this weekend.

Lets let the game happen before we call it a loss.

This is the healthiest this club has been since almost the start of the season. Howard will play his first full game in forever, we have 3 RB's now looking fairly legit, Stamps redhot and unstoppable in the last half dozen games. Nichols coming in well in relief(doesn't start games very well) and Joseph rested.

Lets remember as well that its been ages since Toronto beat any Western Opponent except the riders who are playing horrible of late. Toronto also beat the Stamps twice earlier in the year before the Stamps got on a role. They haven't won a single other game against a Western opponent. The Argos haven't beat any Western Club thats playing well all year.
If the Eskimos bring a reasonable fascimile of their A game we win this. If we play like we did against the Riders, or even Calgary last week we win this.
Just read this and wow, I can't believe I am agreeing with a Replacement post! Nichols should be the guy but all is not lost.

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11-09-2012, 03:31 PM
  #92
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They should fire Tillman again .... just to drive the point home.

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11-09-2012, 03:52 PM
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I just made two bets on this game with a couple of friends, one for lunch and $100 with another. I negotiated a three-point spot with both, despite the fact that I think the Esks win this one outright. I'm saying Esks 30, Argos 24.

I think QB Joe will either have a good game and stay in longer, or he'll be replaced in Q2 and QB Nick will win it. On defence, I think Howie and Co. will have a strong game on the line, putting lots of pressure on Richard Raymond, putting him on his arse a few times and he throws a couple of picks. Sherritt gets his 10 tackles. Our cornerbacks, Bernie No. 22 and Willie No. 34 will have great games.

Yeah, I said it, Esks by at least three but more likely six.

There are a lot of closet coaches here. The decision to start Joseph is only bad if we lose. I say Kavis comes out looking pretty good in two days.

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11-09-2012, 04:46 PM
  #94
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There are a lot of closet coaches here. The decision to start Joseph is only bad if we lose. I say Kavis comes out looking pretty good in two days.
He's made the bold decision and it's on his head if it fails. Dont think it's necessarily the wrong move but it could end up costing him his job, even if management keeps him for another season this decision will still be hanging over his head. He's made a lot of questionable calls this year and there have been those WTF moments like with Burnett running the ball out of the endzone because he lacked instruction.

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11-09-2012, 04:50 PM
  #95
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He's made the bold decision and it's on his head if it fails. Dont think it's necessarily the wrong move but it could end up costing him his job, even if management keeps him for another season this decision will still be hanging over his head. He's made a lot of questionable calls this year and there have been those WTF moments like with Burnett running the ball out of the endzone because he lacked instruction.
Its obvious it won't cost him his job and provided any of the present upper management Like Rhodes is here Kavis has a job.

I find it a little odd I'm the consistent voice of reason in this thread. Knock it off guys..

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11-09-2012, 04:53 PM
  #96
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Its obvious it won't cost him his job and provided any of the present upper management Like Rhodes is here Kavis has a job.

I find it a little odd I'm the consistent voice of reason in this thread. Knock it off guys..
He'll be back next season that's pretty much a given but this is another questionable decision and if it doesnt go well and we dont start well next season I wouldnt be surprised if he didnt last the year. Then again this is the Eskimos, they could make him GM!

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11-09-2012, 05:42 PM
  #97
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People are talking about this game like its a forgone conclusion. So much written about the Eskimos going 2-8 down the stretch. Yet we've faced Calgary 4 times in this stretch lost all of them, but 3 of them by a combined total of 6pts. This against a Calgary team thats on top of its game and playing in the last 10 games like the hottest team in the league. Then we've played BC twice in the stretch and Montreal once. Thats 7 formidable games out of 10. A killer schedule. Yeah we lost 3 in a row going into the playoffs, against a killer stretch of Montreal, BC, Calgary (doesn't get worse than this in the CFL) and we were in every one of those matches and the team accounted for itself reasonably well. ALL of these clubs being better opponents then we will be facing this weekend.

Lets let the game happen before we call it a loss.

This is the healthiest this club has been since almost the start of the season. Howard will play his first full game in forever, we have 3 RB's now looking fairly legit, Stamps redhot and unstoppable in the last half dozen games. Nichols coming in well in relief(doesn't start games very well) and Joseph rested.

Lets remember as well that its been ages since Toronto beat any Western Opponent except the riders who are playing horrible of late. Toronto also beat the Stamps twice earlier in the year before the Stamps got on a role. They haven't won a single other game against a Western opponent. The Argos haven't beat any Western Club thats playing well all year.
If the Eskimos bring a reasonable fascimile of their A game we win this. If we play like we did against the Riders, or even Calgary last week we win this.
I don't get it at all.

I know i shouldn't say this but I am very confident about how the Esks will perform on Sunday and I expect to see them win. Almost convincingly so. I'd rather see Nichols get the start but if KJ starts I will get behind that decision as well.

I just hope that we bring the heat to Ricky from the get go and can contain Owens for the most part. Special teams seem to be sleepers in playoffs.

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11-09-2012, 06:22 PM
  #98
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All you guys that are so cokk sure about victory make sure you get on here right after the game and man up.

As for myself, I think it's a 50/50 proposition.

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11-10-2012, 01:57 PM
  #99
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Boyd is in with Charles and Messam is out according to TSN.

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11-10-2012, 02:03 PM
  #100
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Boyd is in with Charles and Messam is out according to TSN.
Good.

Hopefully we actually use them.


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