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Pavel Bure's Number To Be Retired (Post # 31)

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Old
11-08-2012, 05:22 PM
  #101
kanuck87
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Bure had McLean.

Naslund had Cloutier.

You aren't going *anywhere* in the post-season with a goalie like Cloutier (liked his fighting ability/spirit but he really was average at best). McLean was one of the (not the only) reasons the Canucks got as far as they did in that year (if McLean didn't make that fantastic save - there wouldn't have been that fantastic Bure series winning goal against the Flames).
I didnt mean it in team accomplishments, I meant in the individual stats that he put up. Look at all of his high point seasons both in Vancouver and in Florida. The next closest was always 25, 30+ points behind Bure. And if I'm reading this right, in 2000-01 with Florida, Bure put up 51 goals and 92 points, the next closest in points was Viktor Kozlov with 37 points. This guy was literally scoring goals by himself.

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11-08-2012, 06:00 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by King of Anarchy View Post
There is no debating this. Best player in franchise history.

However, after Daniel and Henrik, I don't want to see another jersey retired for at least 20 years.
I hope we have 10 guys worthy of jersey retirement in the next 20 years.

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11-08-2012, 06:02 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by 23 17 23 View Post
Bure > Linden
It's too bad that wasn't true on June 14, 1994.


We could have used a Stan Smyl in the Boston Series.

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11-08-2012, 06:09 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by VeteranNetPresence View Post
him and linden's should be the only #'s retired
It's such a load of crap to back date your opinion. When Smyl's jersey was retired, there wasn't any questioning it. Smyl did everything you wanted a player to do, and this has been a city that has long revered blue collar type players.

Now I'll sit and wait for people to tell me how opposed they were to the #12 going up. I'd bet a full 30% of those people weren't even alive at the time.

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11-08-2012, 06:41 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Patchy View Post
Why would a fan of his team speak like this about one of the franchise's biggest player? Talk about being ungrateful. You act like if the Canucks have won 24 Stanley Cups and have several Hall of Famers.

It's funny how people speak of Bure and Linden and the '94 team like they won the Stanley Cup. Oh yes, they fought more and lost with more dignity. And yet they didn't win it in the end. Yet it means nothing in the end.
I thought Naslund was a great skilled player. For that, I was a fan. However, he should have never been named captain as he was not cut out to be a leader. He wasn't a great speaker and he wasn't the all out effort lead by example type, so other than being our top scorer, I'm not sure how fit he was to inspire and lead a team to victory. For as great as his accomplishments were as a scorer, you have to judge him on his role with the club. In that regard, he was a failure. The Canucks won all of 2 playoff rounds over the course of his career here. His "choke" speech after losing the division title was a low point to me as a fan. I can't imagine how it felt as one of his teammates watching him stumble, all mopey, in his public address to the crowd.

Just because I'm a fan, doesn't mean I should wear blinders and heap nothing but praise on the team. Do you praise Bertuzzi and all of his actions here? I loved his game when he was in his prime...pre-Moore.

If people look back at the Linden/Bure era with fondness, there is a reason, and it isn't just the failed cup run. Linden years - 16 seasons - 5 missed playoffs - 8 rounds won - 1 cup finals. Naslund years - 12 seasons - 7 missed playoffs - 2 rounds won. Sedin years - 11 seasons - 2 missed playoffs - 7 rounds won - 1 cup finals.

I am grateful for Naslund's contributions to the community and I do think he was one of the best Canucks ever, but I don't hold him in high regard as a captain and I don't believe his number should have been retired. I think a number should be retired first for excellence as a player, secondly, for success you brought the team on the ice and lastly for your contribution to the community. The first two are way more important to me as a fan of the game. Community work doesn't win championships. I thought having your number retired in a hockey rink should probably be about what type of hockey player you were there...not whether you were a good ambassador when not playing.

Bure spent all his time trying to be the best hockey player he could. I don't know if there has ever been a more physically fit player on the Canucks. His fitness levels were off the charts. He could run 100 meters in 10 seconds. His body fat percentage was ridiculously low. Hard work, dedication to the sport, love for scoring, etc...I'll take all of these over Naslund's charity work and captain ability.

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11-08-2012, 06:49 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
If people look back at the Linden/Bure era with fondness, there is a reason, and it isn't just the failed cup run. Linden years - 16 seasons - 5 missed playoffs - 8 rounds won - 1 cup finals. Naslund years - 12 seasons - 7 missed playoffs - 2 rounds won. Sedin years - 11 seasons - 2 missed playoffs - 7 rounds won - 1 cup finals.
Prime Linden years (and all the playoff success) - goalie. Naslund years - Cloutier. Prime Sedin years (and all the playoff success) - goalie.

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11-08-2012, 07:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
Prime Linden years (and all the playoff success) - goalie. Naslund years - Cloutier. Prime Sedin years (and all the playoff success) - goalie.
While you make a good point, the results are what they are. Linden and the Sedins got us to a finals, and Naslund "choked". Most people won't care about the process.

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11-08-2012, 07:01 PM
  #108
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No disrespect to Henrik or Daniel but Pavel Bure is the greatest hockey player who's ever donned a Canucks jersey.

One of the greatest pure goal scorers of all time. Even though he never had a Gretzky, Oates, Orr, etc.. feeding him the puck, his goals per game is like 3rd all time.

Bure's first game as a Canuck at Pacific Coliseum will never be forgotten by all who attended - he made the other players look like pylons. A surreal experience.

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11-08-2012, 07:06 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
While you make a good point, the results are what they are. Linden and the Sedins got us to a finals, and Naslund "choked". Most people won't care about the process.
In the end, neither won a Cup...yet.

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11-08-2012, 07:13 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
They had a little help in the form of McLean & Luongo. It took a Hawks team with all star forwards AND all star defensemen to win a Cup with a Cloutier-type goalie.
I already acknowledged that both Linden and the Sedins had a little help. Besides, we can't credit Naslund for playoff accomplishments that his teams didnt achieve, nor should we discredit those of Linden/Bure/Sedins. If we play the "what if" game, it becomes a whole lot more complicated.

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11-08-2012, 07:17 PM
  #111
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that blog by IanMac doesnt really have any concrete proof that this isnt happening. Cant stand that clown anyways.

If this does indeed turn out to be true, I'm sure he'll spin this like he always does.

Bure deserves this.

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11-08-2012, 07:19 PM
  #112
kanuck87
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
In the end, neither won a Cup...yet.
I agree to a certain extent. But I also take into account what those cup runs meant to the city and how it energized all of us. It's not the cup, but for a team and city that hasnt experienced it, we need something to cling onto.

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11-08-2012, 07:28 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
I agree to a certain extent. But I also take into account what those cup runs meant to the city and how it energized all of us. It's not the cup, but for a team and city that hasnt experienced it, we need something to cling onto.
You're forgetting just how bad our attendance were during the nadir points of the Quinn regime up to the start of the Burke years. Naslund played a significant part in the turnaround in this franchise. Burke exaggerated about it taking only one quarter to move this franchise but the team was losing alot of money.

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11-08-2012, 07:31 PM
  #114
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Well deserved based on his on-ice achievements and abilities alone.

I have some sort of sneaking suspicion that Gillis and Bure had some issues with each other despite Gillis being his agent.

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11-08-2012, 07:37 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by deckercky View Post
Prime Linden years (and all the playoff success) - goalie. Naslund years - Cloutier. Prime Sedin years (and all the playoff success) - goalie.
McLean in 1994 season:
.891

Luongo in 2010 season:
.913

Cloutier's 3 years as a starter:
.901
.908
.914

I'm not arguing that Cloutier is anywhere in the class of Luongo and a lesser extent to McLean, but he certainly wasn't a pylon back there or as bad as people make him out to be. Those prime years, it is a cop out to blame him.

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11-08-2012, 08:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
McLean in 1994 season:
.891....post-season 0.928

Cloutier's 3 years as a starter:
.901...post-season 0.870
.908...post-season 0.868
.914...post-season 0.922 (but unfortunately was gone for the season during game 3 of the first series).

I'm not arguing that Cloutier is anywhere in the class of Luongo and a lesser extent to McLean, but he certainly wasn't a pylon back there or as bad as people make him out to be. Those prime years, it is a cop out to blame him.
Post-season.

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11-08-2012, 08:18 PM
  #117
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I guess you missed the part of about the mob connections and walking away from team and spitting on the city - also walking away from his $10 million contract. Alexei Yashin wasn't alllowed to, why was he?
I guess you missed the part of me not caring?

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Jason Botchford ‏@botchford
Gman: talked to Pavel today, confirmed he will be having dinner with aquilini and one of the topics will be possible jersey retirement
I hope Ian MacIntyre's jaw is okay, cause he just got served a knockout blow.

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11-08-2012, 08:22 PM
  #118
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Long overdue in my opinion. They'll always be the wet blankets out there, but for me Pavel Bure will always be the best player to play for this organization and as such, deserves to have his number retired.

I'll have clear memories of the hype surrounding this kid when he was drafted, "the best player not in the NHL" , "the saviour of the franchise". I remember Brian Burke's radio show with Dan Russel, and usually young fans asking him week after week, "When's Pavel coming over?". I remember the excitement in the city when we heard Pavel had left Russia and was living in the home of his agent in LA. Then we all saw him for the first time on CkVU Sports Page, in a practice rink holding up a Canucks jersey saying in broken English, "I hope to be in this uniform very soon". Hockey fans went euphoric. Keep in mind, there was no internet or Youtube at this time so this was the first time many of us put a face to the name. I remember my Dad taking me to his first practice in East Van, and waiting outside for him to sign my Upper Deck Pavel Bure card. I was lucky enough to get tickets to his first game against Winnipeg and I will forever remember the entire crowd rising up and gasping as he sliced through the entire Jets team with that blazing speed.

I think people fail to realize what a turning point Pavel Bure's arrival was to the franchise. There was always a feeling that the Canucks were outsiders to the rest of the league before then but his presence legitimized the Canucks and made them a must watch hockey team. Goalies and defenses were terrified of him and he made many HOF defencemen look like pylons.

Congratulations to #10, it was pure joy to have watched you play.
yes, that there is exactly why bure being in the HHOF is such a big deal. he captured our imaginations the way no other player ever has in this uniform, and him getting into the hall says that to the greater hockey world, those memories we have of bure flying in canucks colours matter.

he was a rare player, the rarest of players actually. i mean, how many players of the last 30 years could you really say captured their fanbase's imaginations at the very highest level? off the top of my head: fleury, neely, gilmour in toronto, roy in montreal, perhaps chelios in chicago, forsberg for sweden maybe...

i'm probably leaving off a handful of guys, but it's a short list. and it's not just being a great player. it's being a great player while the way you play displays a kind of attitude that galvanizes the entire fanbase and how those fans see themselves. that acts as a prism through which they start to see themselves in a different light. lesser players (linden, wendel clark) those are the kind of guys that usually spark this kind of emotional resonance. but for those guys i named above, they combined elite results with emotional resonance, the way i imagine watching old film of bobby orr makes old bostonian men of a certain age teary eyed, or really old french guys with rocket richard (against five other maurice richards...). wayne, mario, sakic, and others all dominated, and success also provides a kind of emotional resonance. but what bure, fleury, neely, etc. did exceeds just dominance.

and that's why #10 needs to go up in our rafters. we see ourselves in steamer, in trevor, but that's a private thing. joe calgary or PENSFAN6969 don't understand why #12 and #16 are up in our rafters, and mock us for it. for all their greater individual successes, we don't see ourselves in naslund or the sedins; but they have been recognized by the hockey world as elite talents. pavel gave us both.



as for naslund being a good guy... when i see him on the street, i'll shake his hand and thank him for visiting those kids in the hospital. then i'll walk away and remember the last game of the '03 regular season, "we choked," zero points in game seven against minnesota. if i should ever see pavel on the street, i will remember memories that are worth remembering. /12\ /16\ /10\ /33\ /22\

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11-08-2012, 09:11 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
I thought Naslund was a great skilled player. For that, I was a fan. However, he should have never been named captain as he was not cut out to be a leader. He wasn't a great speaker and he wasn't the all out effort lead by example type, so other than being our top scorer, I'm not sure how fit he was to inspire and lead a team to victory. For as great as his accomplishments were as a scorer, you have to judge him on his role with the club. In that regard, he was a failure. The Canucks won all of 2 playoff rounds over the course of his career here. His "choke" speech after losing the division title was a low point to me as a fan. I can't imagine how it felt as one of his teammates watching him stumble, all mopey, in his public address to the crowd.

Just because I'm a fan, doesn't mean I should wear blinders and heap nothing but praise on the team. Do you praise Bertuzzi and all of his actions here? I loved his game when he was in his prime...pre-Moore.

If people look back at the Linden/Bure era with fondness, there is a reason, and it isn't just the failed cup run. Linden years - 16 seasons - 5 missed playoffs - 8 rounds won - 1 cup finals. Naslund years - 12 seasons - 7 missed playoffs - 2 rounds won. Sedin years - 11 seasons - 2 missed playoffs - 7 rounds won - 1 cup finals.

I am grateful for Naslund's contributions to the community and I do think he was one of the best Canucks ever, but I don't hold him in high regard as a captain and I don't believe his number should have been retired. I think a number should be retired first for excellence as a player, secondly, for success you brought the team on the ice and lastly for your contribution to the community. The first two are way more important to me as a fan of the game. Community work doesn't win championships. I thought having your number retired in a hockey rink should probably be about what type of hockey player you were there...not whether you were a good ambassador when not playing.

Bure spent all his time trying to be the best hockey player he could. I don't know if there has ever been a more physically fit player on the Canucks. His fitness levels were off the charts. He could run 100 meters in 10 seconds. His body fat percentage was ridiculously low. Hard work, dedication to the sport, love for scoring, etc...I'll take all of these over Naslund's charity work and captain ability.
All valid points even though I don't agree with everything. Good post.

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11-08-2012, 09:46 PM
  #120
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While you make a good point, the results are what they are. Linden and the Sedins got us to a finals, and Naslund "choked". Most people won't care about the process.
I take exception to this. Linden was the heart and soul of that 94 team. The Sedins weren't the driving force to our 2011 Cup run. In fact, they only had an impact in the SJ series. Linden's contributions to the 94 team is unparalelled.

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11-08-2012, 09:57 PM
  #121
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I take exception to this. Linden was the heart and soul of that 94 team. The Sedins weren't the driving force to our 2011 Cup run. In fact, they only had an impact in the SJ series. Linden's contributions to the 94 team is unparalelled.
Like I said, ultimately, it's going to be the result that everybody looks at. They may not have dazzled in the playoffs, but they both had MVP-type regular seasons, the team won the President's cup, and they helped get the team to the Stanley Cup finals. Whether you agree or not, they're going to be known best for that, along with their charitable activities.

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11-08-2012, 10:01 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
Like I said, ultimately, it's going to be the result that everybody looks at. They may not have dazzled in the playoffs, but they both had MVP-type regular seasons, the team won the President's cup, and they helped get the team to the Stanley Cup finals. Whether you agree or not, they're going to be known best for that, along with their charitable activities.
Oh I agree. I also think you'll see 22 and 33 in the rafters. In addition, I think 22 and 33 deserve to be retired a hell of a lot more than 19 does.

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11-08-2012, 10:05 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
McLean in 1994 season:
.891....post-season 0.928

Cloutier's 3 years as a starter:
.901...post-season 0.870
.908...post-season 0.868
.914...post-season 0.922 (but unfortunately was gone for the season during game 3 of the first series).

I'm not arguing that Cloutier is anywhere in the class of Luongo and a lesser extent to McLean, but he certainly wasn't a pylon back there or as bad as people make him out to be. Those prime years, it is a cop out to blame him.

Post-season.
No kidding since those two teams went to the finals.

Cloutier gets no credit for posting multiple 30 win seasons and decent regular season numbers because the team in front of him was great. However, he gets all the credit for them losing in the playoffs.

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11-08-2012, 10:26 PM
  #124
Barney Gumble
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
No kidding since those two teams went to the finals.
And despite some really uneven playoff games from Luongo (re: blowout games) - he still had a save percentage of 0.914 that Cup Final year.

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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Cloutier gets no credit for posting multiple 30 win seasons and decent regular season numbers because the team in front of him was great. However, he gets all the credit for them losing in the playoffs.
A save percentage of 0.901 & 0.908 in two of those seasons are hardly great - it's what I said before, average at best. Granted Cloutier didn't have exactly the best defense in front of him & Crawford's coaching style hardly helped but the team was ranked #1 & #2 in 'goals for' for each of those two seasons.

When your save percentage is that bad those two seasons in the playoffs - you deserve a good chunk (not all obviously) of the blame. It's not like the Canucks didn't score any goals either those two playoff years (can't blame the goalie if you don't score any goals). You're not going to win any series with your goalie getting that kind of save percentage (haven't checked, but I doubt you'd find more than one or two exceptions in recent history).

He put up some decent numbers in his final year as a Canuck (can hardly blame him for the early playoff exit that year when he was injured) - that likely was the reason the Kings went after him (that and Crawford being their coach).


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11-08-2012, 10:44 PM
  #125
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Oh I agree. I also think you'll see 22 and 33 in the rafters. In addition, I think 22 and 33 deserve to be retired a hell of a lot more than 19 does.
Yeah, it's open season really. I don't think you agree with me on Bure and that he should not be honored, but can anyone disagree how silly the amount of retired numbers we are going to have because of precedents set?

It's kind of disappointing. I can really tell that Gillis is trying to make this franchise not only successful today and for years to come, but with a real legacy like all the greats. I don't really see the amount of retired numbers (and inevitable ones) given the overall track record of our team fitting in with that.

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