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Old
11-07-2012, 11:27 PM
  #601
Hans Rutherford
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Yeah. I mean, I'm not obsessing over the lack of draft returns under Shero because we dealt away a lot of early round picks in '07 and '08 for playoff runs, had some injury troubles, and picked college players who have longer development times. But we almost always defer to the safe and familiar, so while we should see our drafts churn out NHLers with regularity, we're not likely to get another impact player anytime soon.

To use a clumsy baseball analogy, it's like we're always hitting to get on base and never trying to swing for the fences. Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, since we don't have any trouble getting serviceable NHLers to sign here for reasonable money.
And we should all spend all of our money on powerball tickets too, right?

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11-08-2012, 06:02 AM
  #602
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...he's on his way to becoming the next Billy Tibbetts.
I highly doubt that. Billy Tibbetts was one of a kind.

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Old
11-08-2012, 08:22 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
And we should all spend all of our money on powerball tickets too, right?
Did I say that?

I'm saying that if you're not getting another totally wart-free lotto pick anytime soon, and you virtually always defer to the safest-bet option (even when a top 10 pick affords you an opportunity to aim higher), you're assured to net lower-ceiling returns.

It's no mystery as to why our minor-league team can't score to save its life. It has precious little in the way of creative or dynamic talent, and that's because these characteristics haven't been priorities for the Pens staff at the draft table. Unimpeachable character and responsible system play can only get you so far if you can't put the puck in the net.

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11-08-2012, 08:33 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Malkinstheman View Post
does anybody know whether bobby farnham is signed yet? if he is would he be considered a prospect? Just saw the game highlights and WOW hes has soo much energy, hes every where on the ice and is constantly trying to make chances.
He was entertaining but not all that skilled. I think he just signed a PTO. Once Sill gets gack in the lineup he'll go back to the Wheel.

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11-08-2012, 08:45 AM
  #605
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He was entertaining but not all that skilled. I think he just signed a PTO. Once Sill gets gack in the lineup he'll go back to the Wheel.
Hell he'll probably go back when Veilleux returns on Sunday.

I'm actually really intrigued to see Veilleux play. This offense could use some creativity and he has the skill to provide it if he can stay healthy.

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11-08-2012, 11:48 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Did I say that?

I'm saying that if you're not getting another totally wart-free lotto pick anytime soon, and you virtually always defer to the safest-bet option (even when a top 10 pick affords you an opportunity to aim higher), you're assured to net lower-ceiling returns.

It's no mystery as to why our minor-league team can't score to save its life. It has precious little in the way of creative or dynamic talent, and that's because these characteristics haven't been priorities for the Pens staff at the draft table. Unimpeachable character and responsible system play can only get you so far if you can't put the puck in the net.
I just think you're chasing leprechauns here. Who exactly are these 'home-run picks' that we keep missing out on? It'd be one thing if teams were landing them every year, but that's not really the case anymore. If we were to swing for the fences with everyone of our picks, I think we'd be lucky to land about two NHL caliber player in a five year span. They could probably score but their game would come with some flaws as well and wouldn't be the kind of all-star players you'd hope they'd be. I think we know how important depth is, I don't think the Kings would have won the Stanley Cup without players like King and Nolan. Right now I our minor-league team is extremely raw and going through some growing pains, and sadly deferring to it's veterans. But there are cases like Jeffrey, who's probably one of the better later round picks in recent years, that absolutely tore up the AHL and showed a lot of promise and potential at the NHL level. I really think some of these picks do have its payoffs, and that every player that doesn't have skill bleeding out of their ass is destined to become the next Craig Adams.

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11-08-2012, 12:27 PM
  #607
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I'm so happy we finally have depth in minors with Goaltending and Forwards. We are so stacked for the next decade with Defensemen. Its an area we don't have to spend a ton on UFA Dman we just replace Martin and Orpik with farm system. I'm happy we have balance at every position now. As sad as I am we don't have an NHL season I'm excited about our future in the minors. Makes me want to see some minor league hockey.

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11-08-2012, 12:28 PM
  #608
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He was entertaining but not all that skilled. I think he just signed a PTO. Once Sill gets gack in the lineup he'll go back to the Wheel.
Who would you compare him to? Steve Webb?

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11-08-2012, 01:23 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
I just think you're chasing leprechauns here. Who exactly are these 'home-run picks' that we keep missing out on? It'd be one thing if teams were landing them every year, but that's not really the case anymore. If we were to swing for the fences with everyone of our picks, I think we'd be lucky to land about two NHL caliber player in a five year span. They could probably score but their game would come with some flaws as well and wouldn't be the kind of all-star players you'd hope they'd be. I think we know how important depth is, I don't think the Kings would have won the Stanley Cup without players like King and Nolan. Right now I our minor-league team is extremely raw and going through some growing pains, and sadly deferring to it's veterans. But there are cases like Jeffrey, who's probably one of the better later round picks in recent years, that absolutely tore up the AHL and showed a lot of promise and potential at the NHL level. I really think some of these picks do have its payoffs, and that every player that doesn't have skill bleeding out of their ass is destined to become the next Craig Adams.
Toews. Kuznetsov's well on his way. Grigorenko too.

That's 3 pretty significant whiffs in 6 years.

I'm not saying we have to swing through on every pitch, but we don't need to be drafting the likes of Rust and Samuelsson in early rounds, or a guy like Pouliot at 8th overall when already we have an incredibly well-stocked blueline pool and very few would argue he's the BPA.

It'd be nice to aspire to something better than just getting on-base every once in awhile.

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11-08-2012, 01:44 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Toews. Kuznetsov's well on his way. Grigorenko too.

That's 3 pretty significant whiffs in 6 years.

I'm not saying we have to swing through on every pitch, but we don't need to be drafting the likes of Rust and Samuelsson in early rounds, or a guy like Pouliot at 8th overall when already we have an incredibly well-stocked blueline pool and very few would argue he's the BPA.

It'd be nice to aspire to something better than just getting on-base every once in awhile.
I've stepped into bizzarro world...

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Old
11-08-2012, 01:53 PM
  #611
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Does Shero and his scouting team really deserve this criticism?

Sure the penguins have "missed out" on some better talent but every single team has passed on a better player. You just never know. I'd rather draft from a position where they know how to develop and turn those assets into one we lack. Most of you understand this philosophy, but still question/criticize it...

Players are business pieces. And if you can turn those pieces into valuable assets for your company or use them to fix weaknesses then keep doing it.

Only time I was disappointed was when we couldn't move up to grab Tarasenko. Here's to hoping valeri nichushkin is there for us this draft

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11-08-2012, 06:55 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I've stepped into bizzarro world...
Haha, I guess it could seem that way.

Where you and I part is (and correct me if I'm off here) you believe we've failed in developing forward talent, while I don't think that's the problem. I think it's much more a case of not prioritizing high-end skill in forwards at the draft.

The draft day d-splosion kind of pushed me over the edge. Makes me really question their definition of BPA, to say the least.

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11-08-2012, 07:00 PM
  #613
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I think it's easy to look at each pick and say "oh we coulda gotten this guy," it might be more fair to compare the Penguins overall drafting & developing record to every other team's individually. Every team passes guys up and sometimes teams get lucky, but I don't think there are more than a handful of scouting staffs that are clearly better than ours.

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11-08-2012, 07:32 PM
  #614
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The "oh the Pens passed on this guy" argument is always hilarious to me because of the guys people get hung up on go in the 4th round or something. Pulkkinen for instance was passed over 30 teams 3 times, and a handful of teams 4 times...but somehow Shero is the twatcanoe for passing on him.

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11-08-2012, 07:37 PM
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
I think it's easy to look at each pick and say "oh we coulda gotten this guy," it might be more fair to compare the Penguins overall drafting & developing record to every other team's individually. Every team passes guys up and sometimes teams get lucky, but I don't think there are more than a handful of scouting staffs that are clearly better than ours.
If we're talking about churning out NHLers, we really don't stack up very well since 2006. But I'm not really worried about that - we have a few players on the cusp. I've also tried to stay away from blanket criticisms of the Pens, and picking and choosing guys who were selected many picks later and came out of nowhere to become successful NHLers (ie picking Sneep over Lucic). The players I just mentioned were genuine pick-ems or off-the-board picks where the Pens shied away from higher-ceiling players.

In general I think we're a solid drafting team...in fact, I think our drafting tendencies ensure a middle-of-the-pack placement. I just don't believe that defensemen and college-bound forwards are BPAs as often as we've picked them, and we would benefit from putting a higher priority on talented forwards at the draft table. The fact that Bennett is the only drafted forward in our system with legitimate top 6 upside speaks volumes AFAIC.

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11-08-2012, 07:56 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The "oh the Pens passed on this guy" argument is always hilarious to me because of the guys people get hung up on go in the 4th round or something. Pulkkinen for instance was passed over 30 teams 3 times, and a handful of teams 4 times...but somehow Shero is the twatcanoe for passing on him.
I'm basically just mad about the Pouliot pick.

We finally get a chance to pick in the top 10 for the first time (and maybe the last) in the Crosby and Malkin era, and instead of trying to draft a dynamic talent to play with them (all the while on a cheap contract), we pick a defenseman that we already have a ton of. I'd rather have the forward prospect in the system than hope the defenseman we picked develops right and then we have to worry about trying to find the right trade partner and the right player in return.

It's all well and good to have a certain drafting philosophy, but there are some instances where circumstances dictate that philosophy be altered a bit.

Don't get me wrong here either. It's not like I hate Pouliot. I would love to see him do well and make me eat crow. I just think in 3-4 years, most of us here are going to wish we had a cheap dynamic player to play with Crosby or Malkin, and we are going to be trying to come up with trade scenarios to make it happen, when all we would have needed to have done is just draft that player in the first place.


We'll see I guess.

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Old
11-08-2012, 08:12 PM
  #617
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Quick hits on Pens top prospects:

Maatta-2 G, 14 A in 17 games. His offensive instincts are becoming as good as his defensive. Complete steal at 22

Harrington- 1 G, 4 A in 17 games. Not there to score though. He will be Orpik's replacement. Plays a similar game and has similar leadership qualities

Pouliot- 5 G, 13 A in 17 games. Exactly what he was offered to be, a high-powered offensive D. Will probably become a player like Letang or a better Goligoski.

Tangradi- 6 G, 0 A in 10 games. Finally he doesn't suck anymore, and he will probably be Sid's winger once the lockout ends. I'd love to see a Tangradi-Crosby-Bennett line this year

Bennett- 1 G, 5 A in 10 games. Not a bad start at all to his rookie season. He will probably have about 20 goals, 40 assists this year in the AHL. Won't be NHL ready this year

Despres- 0 G, 2 A in 10 games. Has been terrible offensively, but has been good on the D side. Only good part is that he is 100% guaranteed a spot on the Pens this year

Morrow- 1 G, 1 A in 8 games. He has really been a disappointment this year. People overrate him really badly, he hasn't shown last year's training camp since last year

Dumoulin- 0 G, 4 A in 9 games. He has been solid on a bad Baby Pens team. He will probably be the top candidate for a call-up this year wgeb injuries arise (like they always do)

I wish the Pens would have drafted Forsberg with the 8th pick. Not that I don't like Pouliot, but we need a winger for Sid, and he fits the mold very well. Oh well, at least we will have a monster D group in about 3 years.

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11-08-2012, 08:21 PM
  #618
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Harrington- 1 G, 4 A in 17 games. Not there to score though. He will be Orpik's replacement. Plays a similar game and has similar leadership qualities
I disagree with this. I've seen him play a few games in person and he's not the type to crush people. He plays smart and reliable without being overly physical. I'm not sure of the current NHL player to compare him to, but his high upside is Dan Girardi.

I feel that Orpik's replacement will be Bortuzzo.

For what it is worth here is THN's player profiles of the Girardi and Harrington (Girardi first):

Quote:
ASSETS: Owns good size, shot-blocking ability and defensive awareness. Is also a decent puck-moving blueliner who gets out of danger in his own zone with aplomb. Can log impressive minute totals. A durable player, he plays through injuries.

FLAWS: Lacks consistency on offense and in the hitting department, which prevents him from raising his game to an elite level. Could stand to use his 6-1, 206-pound frame more in order to be even more effective in shutting opposing forwards down.

CAREER POTENTIAL: Big-minute shutdown defenseman.
Quote:
ASSETS: Can log a lot of ice time, since he's dependable in all three zones and usually quite mistake-free. Excels in puck movement and defensive situations. Owns decent size, too.

FLAWS: Isn't a natural point-producing defenseman, so points won't be easy to come by at the highest level. Isn't very physical, something that would increase his overall value as a shutdown defender.

CAREER POTENTIAL: Steady, big-minute defenseman with upside.

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Old
11-08-2012, 08:36 PM
  #619
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I agree on the BPA philosophy, but they haven't stuck to it. Yes, he could end up being a Goligoski or better, but hey, they could have had their Neal or better taking the actual BPA at their pick. Most had Pouliot going in the early to late teens at best, um....the Pens were picking "8th" basically turning that pick into a early to late teen pick and everyone else moved up a slot.

It saddens me they didn't even think about it or take the time to look over the board. They had complete tunnel vision/blinders on.

I'll bet had they picked Matta at 8th that Pouliot was still there at 22nd. At least that would have been reasonable and more easily swallowed.

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11-08-2012, 08:46 PM
  #620
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It saddens me they didn't even think about it or take the time to look over the board. They had complete tunnel vision/blinders on.
Stop, stop, stop right there. What?

You honestly think teams make their draft picks spontaneously on the spot? They spend ALL YEAR formulating their draft boards. The Pens probably decided they would jump at Pouliot given the chance two months ahead of the draft, at least.

I mean, come on.

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11-08-2012, 08:54 PM
  #621
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Haha, I guess it could seem that way.

Where you and I part is (and correct me if I'm off here) you believe we've failed in developing forward talent, while I don't think that's the problem. I think it's much more a case of not prioritizing high-end skill in forwards at the draft.

The draft day d-splosion kind of pushed me over the edge. Makes me really question their definition of BPA, to say the least.
I believe it is a philosophical problem and a developmental one, but since this past draft, I no longer care to be honest. I looked at this draft and wanted a blueliner... Instead Shero put three talents under the tree and exceeded anything I hoped for.

Two reasons I don't care anymore about Shero drafting fwds:

1. Tangradi is the answer to finding Crosby's winger. I've believed that for over two yrs now. Since Shero didn't bring in some retread scrub DB can wet dream about, plus Tangradi's waiver status, make me feel comfortable he will finally get a real shot.

I know he has the talent. He just needs the chance. I will never back off how highly I think of him until I see him get a real chance and fail.

2. Their blueline farm is easily the best in the league and that as I said, gives Shero many options. I was a little down on the Maatta pick, but I'm really starting to like his game.

I get why people want balance, but Shero did exactly what I hoped for, so I'm not going to *****. This org knows how to draft and develop blueline talent. So do what you do best I say.

I love this blueline farm and Grigs acts like Casper too much for my liking... But he is a sick talent (when he wants to be).

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11-08-2012, 09:08 PM
  #622
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I love this blueline farm and Grigs acts like Casper too much for my liking... But he is a sick talent (when he wants to be).
I think what burns people's a** most is Foreberg, not Grigs, though I think most would've been very hppy with Grigs if taken 8th overall. He'd be a killer with Malkin. Neal would then be paired with Sid.

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11-08-2012, 09:30 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I believe it is a philosophical problem and a developmental one, but since this past draft, I no longer care to be honest. I looked at this draft and wanted a blueliner... Instead Shero put three talents under the tree and exceeded anything I hoped for.

Two reasons I don't care anymore about Shero drafting fwds:

1. Tangradi is the answer to finding Crosby's winger. I've believed that for over two yrs now. Since Shero didn't bring in some retread scrub DB can wet dream about, plus Tangradi's waiver status, make me feel comfortable he will finally get a real shot.

I know he has the talent. He just needs the chance. I will never back off how highly I think of him until I see him get a real chance and fail.

2. Their blueline farm is easily the best in the league and that as I said, gives Shero many options. I was a little down on the Maatta pick, but I'm really starting to like his game.

I get why people want balance, but Shero did exactly what I hoped for, so I'm not going to *****. This org knows how to draft and develop blueline talent. So do what you do best I say.

I love this blueline farm and Grigs acts like Casper too much for my liking... But he is a sick talent (when he wants to be).
The Pens blueline pool is the best in the league, for sure. And it's a good thing too, given how ****** we fared against Philly last year. But we'd arguably have the most impressive group of defense prospects in the NHL whether we drafted Pouliot or not, honestly.

It's nice to have Tangradi and all, and I think he could become a good top 6 complement, but we're aiming low if we think he's the answer to our top 6 prayers - best-case scenario, he'll become a 50 point big-bodied forechecking and net-front presence (which basically means he'd take over when Kunitz moves on/declines). I'd like someone with a little more ability to create on his own, no disrespect to ET. We'll see if any of our 3,500 blueline prospects can yield that sort of player.

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11-08-2012, 09:42 PM
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The Pens blueline pool is the best in the league, for sure. And it's a good thing too, given how ****** we fared against Philly last year. But we'd arguably have the most impressive group of defense prospects in the NHL whether we drafted Pouliot or not, honestly.

It's nice to have Tangradi and all, and I think he could become a good top 6 complement, but we're aiming low if we think he's the answer to our top 6 prayers - best-case scenario, he'll become a 50 point big-bodied forechecking and net-front presence (which basically means he'd take over when Kunitz moves on/declines). I'd like someone with a little more ability to create on his own, no disrespect to ET. We'll see if any of our 3,500 blueline prospects can yield that sort of player.
I get the feeling that Shero will end up dealing tangradi away with one of our good young Ds for a really nice forward for Sid.

Prediction: Colin Wilson (NSH), Setogushi (MIN), C.Stewart (STL), Sam Gagner (EDM), N.Kulemin (TOR), Paajarvi (EDM). They can all use what we have to offer in regards to young Ds (except NSH who'd probably prefer a vet D).

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11-08-2012, 09:47 PM
  #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
The Pens blueline pool is the best in the league, for sure. And it's a good thing too, given how ****** we fared against Philly last year. But we'd arguably have the most impressive group of defense prospects in the NHL whether we drafted Pouliot or not, honestly.

It's nice to have Tangradi and all, and I think he could become a good top 6 complement, but we're aiming low if we think he's the answer to our top 6 prayers - at best, he'll become a 50 point big-bodied forechecking and net-front presence (which basically means he'd take over when Kunitz moves on/declines). I'd like someone with a little more ability to create on his own, no disrespect to ET. We'll see if any of our 3,500 blueline prospects can yield that sort of player.
Tangradi knows how to move the puck quickly, is a beast along the boards, is a load to handle in front of the net, and knows how to score down low. His hockey sense is his best attribute.

Those types of assets don't grow on trees.

He may not be an elite talent, but he has a blend of skill that is uncommon.

The haters can rag on, but I know what I've seen.

Just like I trust what I see in Morrow and DP.

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