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NHL on TSN Quiz: Potential Hall of Fame Inductees For 2013

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11-08-2012, 05:03 PM
  #26
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
If I am picking the 4 names next year it would be Chelios, Niedermayer, Blake and Makarov.
i don't know that blake was so good that he shouldn't have to wait in line behind shanahan. i think blake was all told the better all-time player, but neither guy screams first ballot to me so why not make him wait a year because sundin jumped shanahan's spot in line?

actually, now that i think about it, niedermayer doesn't scream first ballot to me either.

if it were me, i'd probably go chelios, makarov, shanahan, lindros.

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11-08-2012, 07:16 PM
  #27
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First question: Chelios, Niedermayer, Makarov and Lindros. Makarov should obviously be in, probably the best player not in the HHOF already. Lindros is in a class above Shanahan and Blake.

Second question: None of those guys should get in. Fleury was probably the best player out of the group, and Barrasso wouldn't be terrible.

Third question: I don't really understand why Shero wasn't inducted long ago, so he should get in.

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11-08-2012, 07:37 PM
  #28
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I think the fact he was 18 has no importance. The guy tried to screw up an NHL institution (the Draft) to his advantage. Borderlines candidates gets rejected on that basis (Tremblay), or gets to wait a REALLY long time (Mark Howe). Lindros is such borderline candidate due to longevity. And the draft thing was no grey zone like Michel Goulet. Besides, the Hall is supposed to consider "values".

Besides, why Crosby reported to Pittsburgh? It was certainly not the optimal setting (it ended up being great, but THE optimal? No).

I can actually see players asking to be removed from the Hall if Lindros gets in.
I don't know if it'll go that far. There would be some quiet whispers I am sure though.

That being said from 1992 to 2000 we are basically judging Lindros' worthiness. The question is did he do enough in those years to get in? He had a lot of injury plagued seasons in between those years. 1994, 1997, 1998, 1999 (sort of) and 2000. A full season in all of them and he is probably already in but not only does he have character flaws but he also couldn't stay healthy and fell short of leading a team to victory (NHL or International on the top level).

I will say one thing here, there would be a huge can of worms opened up if every player thought the way Lindros does that he doesn't "owe" a team that drafts him anything. I'm glad 99% of them don't. There are more Crosbys out there than Cody Hodgsons thankfully.

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11-08-2012, 07:40 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i don't know that blake was so good that he shouldn't have to wait in line behind shanahan. i think blake was all told the better all-time player, but neither guy screams first ballot to me so why not make him wait a year because sundin jumped shanahan's spot in line?

actually, now that i think about it, niedermayer doesn't scream first ballot to me either.

if it were me, i'd probably go chelios, makarov, shanahan, lindros.
I'm fine with Shanahan in there as well. I will stick by my original opinion that the only reason he had to wait a year was because of his current position in the NHL and the fact that it might have shown favouritism towards him. I really don't think a guy with his resume would have caused a stir at all, regardless of his current job, to have gotten in first ballot.

Blake waiting isn't the end of the world either. So I can live with that.

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11-08-2012, 07:43 PM
  #30
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I think the fact he was 18 has no importance. The guy tried to screw up an NHL institution (the Draft) to his advantage. Borderlines candidates gets rejected on that basis (Tremblay), or gets to wait a REALLY long time (Mark Howe). Lindros is such borderline candidate due to longevity. And the draft thing was no grey zone like Michel Goulet. Besides, the Hall is supposed to consider "values".
I don't see how 'screwing up an NHL institution' should matter when honoring someone for the HOCKEY Hall of Fame.

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Besides, why Crosby reported to Pittsburgh? It was certainly not the optimal setting (it ended up being great, but THE optimal? No).
After the reactions Lindros recieved?

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11-08-2012, 07:45 PM
  #31
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I don't see how 'screwing up an NHL institution' should matter when honoring someone for the HOCKEY Hall of Fame.
It matters because you are judged on what you did in your career. Off the ice it isn't pretty for Lindros, so he is judged for that.

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11-08-2012, 07:52 PM
  #32
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It matters because you are judged on what you did in your career. Off the ice it isn't pretty for Lindros, so he is judged for that.
Again I disagree.
What is considered as appropriate behavior or good 'value' is entirely subjective, unless we are talking about a player who comitted a crime.

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11-08-2012, 08:30 PM
  #33
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After the reactions Lindros recieved?
The reactions were a cause of his actions, and not the other way around.

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11-08-2012, 08:52 PM
  #34
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Again I disagree.
What is considered as appropriate behavior or good 'value' is entirely subjective, unless we are talking about a player who comitted a crime.
The legal, criminal standard is an objective one, but it's not the only standard. We as human beings can judge actions to be right or wrong to various degrees without deferring to the legal standard. If Lindros acted selfishly, and if we think that was wrong, so be it. We can weigh that against the positive aspects of his HOF case.

If you don't have a problem with selfish behaviour then your moral intuitions differ from most people. You're probably surprised every time someone rejects an offer in the ultimatum game.

I think Lindros merits induction as a player, but there's nothing wrong with allowing him to wait a few years and gaining some perspective on his career. He's younger than Chelios, Shanahan, Blake, etc. Still young enough to make an NHL comeback if his head wasn't scrambled. It's not exactly an insult that he isn't in the HOF.

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11-08-2012, 10:14 PM
  #35
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Pilote absolutely does belong in that group offensively. Look at how he scored compared to his peers
His peer group for Dmen was during a time when defensive scoring was lower in general and his peak is directly related to Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita on the Black Hawks.

Throw in that he doesn't even make the NHL until age 24 (on a team that was consistently the worst in the NHL defensively) his name really sticks out on the list of offensive guys and Housley's name looks more like the group listed.

I had Pilote in my original top 20 list (around 15 I think) but in retrospect I think he has been listed too highly.

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11-08-2012, 10:24 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Niedermayer
Chelios
Makarov
Lindros

I really don't understand how people question Lindros' worthiness based on what he DID.
My guess would be these 4 as well but I wouldn't be surprised to see Shanny in before Makarov (if he ever gets in, lets hope he adds to his resume for next year) or Lindros.

Nieds and Chelios are near locks.

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11-08-2012, 10:43 PM
  #37
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His peer group for Dmen was during a time when defensive scoring was lower in general and his peak is directly related to Bobby Hull and Stan Mikita on the Black Hawks.
Yeah, let's punish the guy for being a pioneer. Orr even mentions him as a guy he modeled his game after.

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Throw in that he doesn't even make the NHL until age 24 (on a team that was consistently the worst in the NHL defensively) his name really sticks out on the list of offensive guys and Housley's name looks more like the group listed.

I had Pilote in my original top 20 list (around 15 I think) but in retrospect I think he has been listed too highly.
Arthur Wirtz took over the Blackhawks in 1954, which led to a HUGE turnaround because he changed the way things were done, which included bringing in the right players. One of the first guys he brought in was Pierre Pilote in 1955-56. Had Wirtz been in control earlier it's very possible Pilote's NHL career starts earlier. Also, Pilote started his career in the toughest era of all time for a player to break onto a roster, certainly much tougher than when Housley began.


The Stats...

Point Finishes Among Dmen: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 10
Playoff Point Finishes Among Dmen: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
1961 Led the Cup Winning Hawks in Points

% Rank in Points Among Dmen compared to 2nd place: 169, 147, 136, 127, 103, 100, 100, 95, 93, 86, 73
Those are monster leads...much more than can be attributed to playing with Hull and Mikita

Housley can't come close to any of this. The only thing he has going for him is that he played in an era where scoring was higher, seasons had more games, and careers were longer.


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11-08-2012, 10:54 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I think the fact he was 18 has no importance.
almost every 18 year old does really stupid things do we judge everyone on what they did in their 18th year?

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The guy tried to screw up an NHL institution (the Draft) to his advantage.
Institution?

More like an innovation added onto the reserve clause that the owners instituted. The draft was clearly an NHL management and business move. Heck even the NHL has modified this institution from it's origins.

Funny why doesn't anyone ask why Wayne just didn't wait for his draft year and stay in the OHL. Didn't he screw over the Jr team that drafted him?

Quote:
Borderlines candidates gets rejected on that basis (Tremblay), or gets to wait a REALLY long time (Mark Howe). Lindros is such borderline candidate due to longevity. And the draft thing was no grey zone like Michel Goulet. Besides, the Hall is supposed to consider "values".
Does Tremblay really get overlooked because of his going to the WHA or maybe they feel he simply isn't good enough. Same for Mark Howe. sure it's a Hall of values and at one time it was okay for some players to nearly kill other players.

The whole values and intangibles are really secondary to what a player does on the ice and for a 7 year period Eric was one of the best players in the league and a beast when he played.

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I can actually see players asking to be removed from the Hall if Lindros gets in.
I guess it's possible but some Don Cherry type dinosaurs might have asked the same when Tretiak got in too doesn't really mean alot at the end of the day if either situation actually occurs IMO.

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11-08-2012, 10:57 PM
  #39
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Again I disagree.
What is considered as appropriate behavior or good 'value' is entirely subjective, unless we are talking about a player who comitted a crime.
Then here's the thing to think about. What did Lindros accomplish by doing what he was doing? If he was doing the right thing and not something that was very self fulfilling then who else did he help? Who was he thinking about other than himself during that time? You're free to an opinion but he hadn't even laced up a pair of skates in the NHL and he was already the anti-team player. He did nothing to warrant Quebec being unfit for him. He didn't play 2 or 3 seasons there and then say "this doesn't fit for me." He didn't even do that. Say what you want that appropriate behaviour is subjective but in this situation if you were only looking out for yourself no matter how many people it inconvenienced then I think you should re-consider.

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11-08-2012, 11:03 PM
  #40
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Funny why doesn't anyone ask why Wayne just didn't wait for his draft year and stay in the OHL. Didn't he screw over the Jr team that drafted him?
We're going that route now? Tell me you can see the difference between his situation and Lindros' situation. Gretzky did something Lindros didn't. He went to a team at the bottom of the standings and turned them into a dynasty. He didn't refuse to play for them.

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I guess it's possible but some Don Cherry type dinosaurs might have asked the same when Tretiak got in too doesn't really mean alot at the end of the day if either situation actually occurs IMO
Tretiak was, and still is, respected by Canadians. Look no further than the ovation he got in the opening ceremonies of Game 2 in the 1972 Series. The Torontonians cheered him when he was introduced. There was always a mutual respect with Tretiak even if we wanted to beat him. Nobody really should ever question his induction.

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11-08-2012, 11:14 PM
  #41
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Yeah, let's punish the guy for being a pioneer. Orr even mentions him as a guy he modeled his game after.
This pioneer thing gets brought up for more than 1 player, probably at least 10 times after Hod Stuart. I can't keep track anymore.



Quote:
Arthur Wirtz took over the Blackhawks in 1954, which led to a HUGE turnaround because he changed the way things were done, which included bringing in the right players. One of the first guys he brought in was Pierre Pilote in 1955-56. Had Wirtz been in control earlier it's very possible Pilote's NHL career starts earlier.
It's possible but so is Housley getting drafted by a different team and playing with much better players but both didn't happen.

Quote:
Also, Pilote started his career in the toughest era of all time for a player to break onto a roster, certainly much tougher than when Housley began.
This also seems to get applied to the entire 06 era and I'm not sure it's true. The late 40's wasn't considered the golden era for Dmen and outside of Kelly and Harvey I doubt the situation changed that much in a couple of years.


The Stats...

Quote:
Point Finishes Among Dmen: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, 5, 6, 10
Playoff Point Finishes Among Dmen: 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2
1961 Led the Cup Winning Hawks in Points

% Rank in Points Among Dmen compared to 2nd place: 169, 147, 136, 127, 103, 100, 100, 95, 93, 86, 73
Those are monster leads...much more than can be attributed to playing with Hull and Mikita

Housley can't come close to any of this. The only thing he has going for him is that he played in an era where scoring was higher, seasons had more games, and careers were longer.
So era matters for Housley but not for Pilote? Those % listed above are clearly era driven and also the role of Dmen during Pilote's era as well.

Unfortunately I think era only matters some of the time here and it's pretty clear which eras get hurt more than others.

Pilote never led his team in scoring by 9 and 21 points either.

Housley begins his career finishing 3,3,2,4,2,3 on his teams scoring before Pilote makes the NHL.

In fact Housley only drops lower than 5th in his team scoring in his 12 year due to injury before ranking 3rd and 4th in his 13 and 14th seasons.

He actually would have led the New Jersey team he finished with in his 14th season and been 2nd on the Flames in the same year.

Clearly he is inferior to Pilote defensively but it's also pretty clear that he belongs more in the group of offensive Dmen listed that Pilote does as well overall.

Weaker era or not Housley had 6 seasons in the NHL, at an extremly high offensive rate until Pilote gets his 1st NHL season.

Pilote gets his 3 Norris trophies when time finally catches up to Harvey and before the Orr era, some good timing there along with the increased stats with Hull and Mikita emerging.

Back to the OP, I'm not sure if Housley gets in or not but it would be really funny to see the outrage here in the history section that a defenseman with Housley stats (borderline in or above in as a forward) given that some thinks it's nonsense that he is even being discussed.


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11-08-2012, 11:29 PM
  #42
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It's about damn time Shero gets in.

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11-08-2012, 11:33 PM
  #43
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We're going that route now? Tell me you can see the difference between his situation and Lindros' situation. Gretzky did something Lindros didn't. He went to a team at the bottom of the standings and turned them into a dynasty. He didn't refuse to play for them.
It's simply sarcasm on my part, I'm kind of tired so maybe I didn't present it clearly enough but my main point is that it's absurd to say this about Wayne in much the same way it's absurd to put the amount of emphasis on Lindros as a whole based on what happened when he was 18, and younger and under the influence of his father.



Quote:
Tretiak was, and still is, respected by Canadians. Look no further than the ovation he got in the opening ceremonies of Game 2 in the 1972 Series. The Torontonians cheered him when he was introduced. There was always a mutual respect with Tretiak even if we wanted to beat him. Nobody really should ever question his induction.

Once again I probably shouldn't post when tired but both situations would be absurd don't you think?

Although having said that I do know that you are one guy that treats the WHA guys with (I tired here so going with) some disdain so maybe Lindros gets the same treatment?

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11-08-2012, 11:34 PM
  #44
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Then here's the thing to think about. What did Lindros accomplish by doing what he was doing? If he was doing the right thing and not something that was very self fulfilling then who else did he help? Who was he thinking about other than himself during that time? You're free to an opinion but he hadn't even laced up a pair of skates in the NHL and he was already the anti-team player. He did nothing to warrant Quebec being unfit for him. He didn't play 2 or 3 seasons there and then say "this doesn't fit for me." He didn't even do that. Say what you want that appropriate behaviour is subjective but in this situation if you were only looking out for yourself no matter how many people it inconvenienced then I think you should re-consider.
I don't think any Anglophone from outside of Quebec can necessarily be blamed too much for not wanting to move to the centre of primarily French Quebec back in '90/91, especially after the high profile violence in '90 with the Oka crisis, and being the last place team on top of that. But let's be honest, no one pulls that and "gets away with it" unless someone else thinks they're "worth it" and has a "legal" (certainly not "moral") route to go about it. I wish he had come to Quebec, because I probably would have gotten to see him play at least once here in Halifax before the Citadels went away.

To think of how different it would have been if Lindros had gone to the Rangers (the other team that had a "done deal" with Quebec for Lindros). Imagine who would have had to go the other way, what the roster would have looked like in '93/94, etc. Do they still end up going after a guy like Messier right after securing the rights to Lindros? What does a lineup with Lindros and Messier look like? How many MORE points does Leetch end up with? lol. And actually, how many fewer fights would Lindros have gotten into with that NYR lineup behind him? Domi, King, Kocur, Cirella, Wells, Beukeboom, even Graves, maybe Messier... Legion of Death and Destruction: Kovalev - Messier - Lindros, with Amonte, Graves, Nemchinov, Gartner for secondary scoring...

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11-09-2012, 06:15 AM
  #45
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I don't think any Anglophone from outside of Quebec can necessarily be blamed too much for not wanting to move to the centre of primarily French Quebec back in '90/91, especially after the high profile violence in '90 with the Oka crisis, and being the last place team on top of that. But let's be honest, no one pulls that and "gets away with it" unless someone else thinks they're "worth it" and has a "legal" (certainly not "moral") route to go about it. I wish he had come to Quebec, because I probably would have gotten to see him play at least once here in Halifax before the Citadels went away.
Humm...
You're probably not gonna learn anything of what I'd say, but...

Quebec (the city) is roughly 350 km away from Kanhesatake. Not only that, but the "high profile violence" (and, to be honest, it was WAY OVERBLOWN... actually, the "violence" thing was overblown) had nothing to do with French, or language for that matter. It was, like, White vs. Non-Whites.

Besides, it was probably more of a reluctance vs. small-market team. And Lindros daddy wanting more sponsor money.

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11-09-2012, 07:34 AM
  #46
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It's simply sarcasm on my part, I'm kind of tired so maybe I didn't present it clearly enough but my main point is that it's absurd to say this about Wayne in much the same way it's absurd to put the amount of emphasis on Lindros as a whole based on what happened when he was 18, and younger and under the influence of his father.
Lindros gets evaluated based on what he did during his hockey career, just like any other hockey player. Young men don't always make the best decisions but hockey is a young man's game. You have to grow up fast.

Also, I'm not aware that an older and wiser Lindros has ever said he handled the situation poorly, or he wishes he had done it better, or acknowledged and apologized for his actions. (If I'm wrong about this, I'd like to know.) If he still stands behind his actions at age 38 then why shouldn't we hold him responsible for them?

Of course if you don't think he did anything wrong this line of argument doesn't apply, I'm addressing the "he was only 18!" argument.

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11-09-2012, 10:06 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I think the fact he was 18 has no importance. The guy tried to screw up an NHL institution (the Draft) to his advantage. Borderlines candidates gets rejected on that basis (Tremblay), or gets to wait a REALLY long time (Mark Howe). Lindros is such borderline candidate due to longevity. And the draft thing was no grey zone like Michel Goulet. Besides, the Hall is supposed to consider "values".

Besides, why Crosby reported to Pittsburgh? It was certainly not the optimal setting (it ended up being great, but THE optimal? No).

I can actually see players asking to be removed from the Hall if Lindros gets in.
Quebec got their trade, full worth and more as it turned out. Trades are also an "institution" in the NHL, that's a big part of teams trying to get better. Why is this not fair? Lindros lost a year for it. He was truly unique at what he did on the ice(But Gordie Howe?), far more dominant than many in the Hall ever was.

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11-09-2012, 11:09 AM
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Humm...
You're probably not gonna learn anything of what I'd say, but...

Quebec (the city) is roughly 350 km away from Kanhesatake. Not only that, but the "high profile violence" (and, to be honest, it was WAY OVERBLOWN... actually, the "violence" thing was overblown) had nothing to do with French, or language for that matter. It was, like, White vs. Non-Whites.

Besides, it was probably more of a reluctance vs. small-market team. And Lindros daddy wanting more sponsor money.
It was definitely lots of that. Just saying, on top of that, the centre of French-speaking Quebec wasn't the most inviting place for an Anglophone to start a new (and very important) chapter of their life. Not saying it necessarily was a factor, not saying they were justified in considering it as a factor if they did, but the Anglophone population of Quebec City steadily declined in share by half between 1950 and 2000 (~14%->~8%), so it's not like the Lindros family was unique in their concern about starting out life there as an English-only speaker. And the Association for Canadian Studies attributed that mostly to emigration to other provinces; not increase in French speaking family size, or the like. I think 2006 census (from Wikipedia, mind you) had only 1.5% of Quebec City reporting their mother tongue as English (vs 12-17% in Montreal, for example, depending on metro or the island).

Language, possible exposure in a smaller, "remote", relatively unsuccessful market, and recent civil unrest in the province (didn't even mention the protests/implications etc. associated with Meech Lake as well) could all have affected their decision-making. That, and how hard was Lindros really going to go against the wishes of his father at 18.


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11-09-2012, 01:38 PM
  #49
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Then here's the thing to think about. What did Lindros accomplish by doing what he was doing? If he was doing the right thing and not something that was very self fulfilling then who else did he help? Who was he thinking about other than himself during that time? You're free to an opinion but he hadn't even laced up a pair of skates in the NHL and he was already the anti-team player. He did nothing to warrant Quebec being unfit for him. He didn't play 2 or 3 seasons there and then say "this doesn't fit for me." He didn't even do that. Say what you want that appropriate behaviour is subjective but in this situation if you were only looking out for yourself no matter how many people it inconvenienced then I think you should re-consider.
Counter question:
What are the opinions about John Elway?

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11-09-2012, 03:55 PM
  #50
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Posts: 20,051
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Quebec got their trade, full worth and more as it turned out. Trades are also an "institution" in the NHL, that's a big part of teams trying to get better. Why is this not fair? Lindros lost a year for it. He was truly unique at what he did on the ice(But Gordie Howe?), far more dominant than many in the Hall ever was.
HINT : If the Nordiques had the choice, would they have traded Lindros?

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